sc:01 Moddern war

Mmm... We definitely need to go through with the rush. We've committed too many resources to it that we could've spent expanding. I can't see it being easy to retool. We should give it our best shot.

While I agree we need more forces in place to take out Utrecht, I think we need to declare war immediately and cut the copper. Otherwise, we risk facing more spears. Cutting the copper also does remove axes from the picture, which means we don't have a huge advantage attacking Willem.

If we fail, oh well, it's all a learning experience, and I'll still be around for sc02 :P
 
I agree that we need to DoW right now. For all we know, spearman number 2 could be ready on any turn, and would put a major damper on our aggresive plan. Pillage that copper asap, and our 6 chariots should be able to take Utrecht on turn 1 of war. Just on few tests (25% fortify, 2xp, hills, 20% culture), I routinely captured the city with 2-3 chariot losses. Sure its a kinda steep price to pay, but we've invested so much, how could we not go for it now. Hopefully we can capture Utrecht and The Hague quickly and without heavy losses, giving us a chance at Amsterdam. However, this war may get protracted and we'd have to wait for catapults to get the capital. We cannot, IMO, end the war against him though, because he will just rehookup the copper and spam spears against us.

Worse case scenario, we're starting SC:02 Moddern War Redux sooner then expected :)
 
Amsterdam is on the flat, it will fall with 3x chariots I think.

EDIT. I mean, 3x the number of defenders.
 
I have to disagree about declaring immediately.

If we go in with just the 6 then we risk losing the first round and we may never be able to overcome whipped archer spamming. Utrecht is a pop 4 city and can whip at least two defenders before we could build up another force. The extra two units give us a bit of assurance that, at least, Utrecht will fall.

For all we know, Willem could just as likely be building settlers as spearmen. Besides, the Utrecht spear JUST arrived there, I don't think he's had time to come that close to producing another.


I'll shut up now and let plashogi make the call.
sFun_blahblah.gif
 
I'm back from work and ready to play. Just so you know, I play all my games to the bitter end. See, for example, how I won by losing TL #9 here: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=175125
If anything, to really learn, we could split this game into SC01a - where we fight to recover from a failed attack and SC01b - where we call off the attack like I suggested and play both simultaneously.

Enough soapbox.

THE RELUCTANT GENERAL

The bloodthirsty Egyptian government demands to expand and elects poor playshogi to lead them into battle. He moves 2 chariots into position and presses end turn, hoping for jungle to grow northeast of Utrecht, or borders to expand expelling the pillaging chariot. He also notes that Willem's land is inusufficiently explored and there could be more metal in Amsterdam's BFC although unlikely since no roads enter the unexplored area.

T101 - Incredibly, the Egyptian lookout reports that the spearman has vacated Utrecht!

Civ4ScreenShot0007-1.jpg


So, playshogi with considerable smugness at his excellent timing dials Willem and declares war!

Civ4ScreenShot0008.jpg


The Pillager collects 17:gold: for the Egyptian government (no spoils of war for our troops) and two chariots get combat 1, since flanking 1 would be useless when attacking from 2 squares away. It has a respectable 21% chance of victory. He dies, but inflicts heavy damage on the archer. The next two combats are uneventful (i.e. successful) and Utrecht is stripped of 112:gold: and razed. Our scouts note that our chariots would have had less than 1% chance of defeating the spearman. 9 undamaged chariots will arrive in Amsterdam in 3 turns.

Civ4ScreenShot0011.jpg


T102 - Willem discovers Alphabet. He needs Masonry, Animal Husbandry, and has Fishing, Hunting and Alphabet. As expected the killer of the axe, which was down to 0.2 health was left exposed as a decoy which the spear killed, diverting him away from Amsterdam. The Pillager takes note that currently Amsterdam is defended by just 2 archers. I pop rush a chariot in Thebes and divert 45 overflow hammers into a library instead of another chariot.

T104 - The Nifty Nine chariots prepare to assault Amsterdam, defended by 3 archers. No luck on the low odds combat, but the city is ours. 4 healthy chariots and 2 wounded ones remain. Plus some reinforcements are coming for the final assault on The Hague. I bump science back to 100%. Scouts report that Willem's last city is defended by a single archer, but it's on a hill. The city is size 1 so this should be it, in 2 turns.

Civ4ScreenShot0013-1.jpg


T105 - The Hague grows to size 2!

T106 - 2 archers in The Hague, now. I've got 5 fully healed chariots and 1 chariot with combat 1 at 3.5/5 health available. 3 more chariots die, but The Hague and Willem are destroyed. 2 workers are captured. I doubt we could have extorted Alphabet by waiting until he was willing to talk and fishing and hunting now take just 3 turns each, by working the FP cottages and using 2 scientists. After completing the library in Thebes I order up an obelisk. Poly due in 1 turn. Chariots heal up and sent exploring. A forest is chopped in Thebes.

T107 - Start priesthood. It's very possible we can chop the Oracle in Amsterdam. Workers are moved there ASAP. I just noticed that The Hague was controlling gold, however, I think that city would be better located 2N of where The Hague was, so that the copper and fish can be worked.

T108 - Obelisk complete in Thebes. I stick with working the 2 food tiles and run 2 scientists while building a settler.

T110 - Priesthood due in 1 turn. I think production in Amsterdam should be switched to Oracle immediately. I have 3 workers building a mine, which will chop a forest in 1 turn. So far the only wonder built is stonehenge. Timing of Oracle completion for Code of Laws? Or Monarchy (for happiness)? With marble, 4 forest chops will do it. The next tech should be hunting so we get the extra happy from the ivory camps. The next city? I think 2N of old The Hague on the sugar so we can get copper, fish and gold. We have 5 chariots and 3 warriors and the power graph vs. Alex has plummeted while his has grown a like amount!

I move 1 chariot to the capital so he could heal up and explore the southern regions.

Sorry, I can't remember how to make and erase signs.
 
Great play :dance: :clap: :woohoo: [party] :dance:



T108 - Obelisk complete in Thebes. I stick with working the 2 food tiles and run 2 scientists while building a settler.

didn't we want priests in Thebes first, to get a couple of GPs for Theology and shrine ?


Sorry, I can't remember how to make and erase signs.

Zoom out quite a way until the buttons on the right change, then select the strategic view.



So, all we need to do now is explore Alex, settle the land, build a defensive army good enough to keep Alex at bay, and cottage spam the capitol to get our science levels up.

Oh yes, and chop out the Oracle.

easy. :crazyeye:

EDIT
Here's the roster.
1: Simon_c <-- On Deck
2: S.ilver
3: Madtown
4: playshogi <-- Juts Played
5: tiberion02 **Up Now**
 
Lurking

@ playshogi: type Alt S to make and erase signs the easy way.

I played a shadow of this game up to 1000ad and went for peaceful rex instead of war. It may be interesting to compare games a bit later on.
 
Holy $#!% Nice playing there playshogi! That was a real stroke of luck that the spearman just up and left. That's the last time I suggest immediate declaration.

Well, with Willem out of the way, now we need to FIND Alex :lol:
 
:clap: :woohoo: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Awesome turns shogi and an even better report! I can't believe how stupid the AI is sometimes.

I'm not quite sure what the purpose of a obelisk in thebes is if were trying for the oracle in Amsterdam. Surely we ought to try to keep our GP pools pure for the early stages?

Here's my attempt at a dotmap. I think we should go into full rex mode, slipping in useful wonders when possible. Oracle --> Col slingshot would be great if we can get it. Couthouses will be needed to fill our territory quickly.

sc01-dotmap4.jpg


I think we should make either Amsterdam or Purple dot our mega science/commerce city (or both). If possible, see if we can found a religion in one of those two spots. This may require some careful pop management or settling priority.

I wonder where Alex is? Perhaps somewhere on the peninsula to the southeast?
 
didn't we want priests in Thebes first, to get a couple of GPs for Theology and shrine ?

Yes, but we needed the science for the Oracle techs. I figure, with the Oracle and an obelisk in Amsterdam, we can get the GP from there. After the Oracle we could try hooking up the stone and aim for pyramids somewhere.
 
Lurking
I played a shadow of this game up to 1000ad and went for peaceful rex instead of war. It may be interesting to compare games a bit later on.

Yes, that would be interesting to compare. Once we get past 1000AD, please post a report/save in spoiler tags.
 
Awesome turns shogi and an even better report! I can't believe how stupid the AI is sometimes.

You left me with a great setup!

I'm not quite sure what the purpose of a obelisk in thebes is if were trying for the oracle in Amsterdam. Surely we ought to try to keep our GP pools pure for the early stages?

I didn't think about the Oracle in Amsterdam when I built the obelisk in Thebes. I forgot to stop a forest chop, so I had all these extra hammers.
I'm not very good at thinking ahead too far.

Here's my attempt at a dotmap. I think we should go into full rex mode, slipping in useful wonders when possible. Oracle --> Col slingshot would be great if we can get it. Courthouses will be needed to fill our territory quickly.

Your dotmap looks great, except I think purple dot and blue dot could be moved 1 north for the copper and corn. Lt. Blue dot should be next. Agree with taking CoL with Oracle.

I think we should make either Amsterdam or Purple dot our mega science/commerce city (or both). If possible, see if we can found a religion in one of those two spots. This may require some careful pop management or settling priority.

Amsterdam looks great for a science city, although it's a bit lacking in food (that is, only 1 bonus food tile). I thought for the immediate future we should farm the grassland and use it as a GP farm.

I wonder where Alex is? Perhaps somewhere on the peninsula to the southeast?

I was thinking he was to the northeast beyond the barb city.
 
Your dotmap looks great, except I think purple dot and blue dot could be moved 1 north for the copper and corn. Lt. Blue dot should be next. Agree with taking CoL with Oracle.

Yeah, 1N could work and was a position I considered also. In the end, I felt that 1N wasted too much space near the Phants and would leave a craptastic filler city spot.

Amsterdam looks great for a science city, although it's a bit lacking in food (that is, only 1 bonus food tile). I thought for the immediate future we should farm the grassland and use it as a GP farm.

Too bad we will need the forests there for chops because it would make an absolutely sick National Park city :drool:

I agree that we should convert Amsterdam into a GP farm (for now), with the oracle (hopefully) and obelisks, we ought to be able to pop some preists. We could use one to bulb Theo while pulling Sisiutil-style unit que build up of maces, x-bows, and cats. Once the que's are loaded with 1 turn units, switch to theocracy (music artist powered GA for no anrachy?), and begin pumping out level 2 units to take out Alex and secure the continent.

I'm not sure how feasable this is in the time we have, but maybe we should consider purple dot for a capital switch. If we can get the jungle chopped and cottaged and set up some production going there, it would be a killer beauracracy capital. Plus it is likely to be a more central position of our future empire than Thebes, thus reducing maitenance costs.

As for other early(ish) wonders, Mids would be nice but I think were a bit late to try for them. Other wonders I can think of that may be of benefit are ToA (mostly for free GPP), G. lighthouse (lucrative trade routes when we meet other civs), SoZ (given that we'll be warring a lot throughout the game), and of course, G. library (to help pop scientists).

One last thought, given that we are likely alone on this continent with Alex, we may end up falling behind the tech pace of the other continents due to lack of trade options. I think it could be wise to strive for early Astronomy, perhaps from liberalism. Another option is the deep Astro beeline that Sisiutil pulled off in ALC 20. Details are here in post #474. The problem with this gambit is the techs we would have to avoid, including meditation, theology, and CS.

If we can get to chemistry before the AI then privateers could be very useful for slowing the enemies' tech pace and generally causing havoc (pillage sea resources, blockade ports...).

A lot of stuff to consider, and none of it is particularily relevant right now. Just thought I'd throw out some ideas for the future.
 
Turn 1:
Cleaned up signs on map.
Sent second Warrior from Memphis to Amsterdam for basic city defense.
Priesthood is in. Beginning work on Alphabet (for techtrading with Alex).
Oracle started in Amsterdam, workers outside finish the nearby mine and we gain 60:hammers:. Begin chopping another nearby forest.
War Chariots head out in many directions exploring. Kill the Barb War on the eastern peninsula.


Turn 2:
Chopping....
Thebes worker begins on another cottage.


Turn 3:
60:hammers: more for Oracle.
Navajo defense are examined. 3 Barbarian Archers.
1navajo.jpg
[/SPOILER]


Turn 4:
60:hammers: more from chopping for Oracle.


Turn 5:
Oracle is complete!! I choose Code of Laws and Islam is founded in Memphis. (I only choose Islam because to this day I've never played a game with Islam as state religion).
2.jpg

3.jpg

4.jpg


Alexanders borders are discovered in the Northeast past Barbtown.
5.jpg


Chariots finish exploring the western peninsula and discover some fish out there.
6.jpg


Also finish exploring the eastern peninsula, and find somemore good seafood
7.jpg



Turn 6:
Sign open borders with Alexander to explore his territory.
8.jpg


Discover Sparta. It is packed with units that are scary to our War Chariots (5 Phalanx). Also see a greek settler stack heading NW.


Turn 7:
Obelisk finishes in Amsterdam and I hire 2 Priest specialists for GP points. Also un-hire the 2 Scientists in Thebes so that a GScientist doesnt pop first, set work to FP/Cottages.
Use Islamic missionary to spread Islam to Capital since it will spread better from there (trade routes)


Turn 8:
Find Kushans (Barb city) down in Fur country.


Turn 9:
Let Thebes regrow to 5 before going back to Settler production.


Turn 10:
Thebes grows.
Finish mapping out Greek Mainland.
9.jpg




1: Simon_c ** Up now **
2: S.ilver <-- Up on deck.
3: Madtown
4: playshogi
5: tiberion02 <-- Juts Played
 

Attachments

Solid set tiberion.

Only thing I probably would've done differently was to 2 pop whip memphis the turn before oracle completed. That way Amsterdam would've had a higher pop and had a better chance of being the holy city. No worries though. Memphis is a strong city anyway and it is quite likely that we'll found another one.

Looks like shogi was correct on Alex's location. Given the continent shape, I think we should settle aggressively towards greece. Now that we have courthouses the maintenance should be bearable. Here's my plan:

sc01-dotmap5.jpg


First, we either capture Navajo or raze and resettle 1S (white circle). This depends on whether there is worthwhile land north of the corn above navajo (not pictured). If it's just coast or crappy desert, then we keep Navajo and settle solid purple circle. If there's some hills and flatland, then I say we should split the two food resouces up (go ahead and cringe shogi :scared: ). In that case, I still like my purple site (open circle).

After Navajo is taken care of, we settle blue and purple dots to cut Alex off from the rest of the continent. With all that land, we should be able to out-produce him easily.

As for next tech's to research, I vote for IW or mono, depending on how close to a preist and theo bulb we are. Knowledge of iron could change the dotmaps some.
 
I was debating if I should take IW now over Alphabet. We have ALOT of jungle thats gonna have to be cleared as we expand. However, I thought that if we picked up alphabet, maybe we could trade with alexander for IW and/or Fishing.

If IW is off the table with Alex, definately should pick that up next.
 
Alphabet was a good choice, IMO.

We will ceratinly need fishing soon. Also, since we are alone with Alex all our early courthouse EP's will be directed at him. That should make minor tech stealing a possibility, or we could conserve EP's and use them for city revolts when we annex his territory :ninja:
 
There'll be no trading with Alex until he gets to know some other AIs. They only trade when they know 2 or more civs. :(

And we don't need GA for anarchy free civ changes.

Got it (but not tested the save yet) Will play tonight and start settling north. I guess we need some copper for axes.
we need loads of workers for our new cities, and some army for defence of them. And we need to cottage spam in our main science cities. Pfft

What's the best build order in a new city ? granary, courthouse then forge/library depending on the citie's job ?
 
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