Scenario Preview: 2nd American Civil War

[Sims2789]

Update 10-12-03

I plan to put US Marines and F-15's inside Confederate territory in North Carolina. There will be some US Marines in L.A., but no F-15's(they are gaurding oil fields in Iraq).

 

[MarineCorps]

F-15? Marines don't use no stinking F-15!! They use Cobra attack choppers, F/A-18 Hornets/SuperHornets, my favorite Harriers, A-6 intruders, the V-22 Osprey, and several other choppers but the F-15 is not in the Marine air force.

 

[Sims2789]

im only saying F-15's because they are the USA's UU. and i want no large custom animations for this scenario.

 

[jamesjkirk]

Originally posted by sims2789

BTW, i do not want California to be it's own nation, but i would support a revolution if and only if the United States bans any part of the 1st, 13th or the ammendment letting women(aka, i would not be to happy if women couldn't vote, if we legalized slavery or if Freedom of Speech/Religion/Press/Assembly ect. is repealed).

Not to get too OT, but does that mean you'd want to secede if a Flag-Burning Amendment were passed?

 

[Patroklos]

THis seems to be developing well, I am looking forward to its release.

BTW, the South has more highways/railroads than the west at large (LA is just one area) and our industry is not marginal. Studies show, and I studied it, that the south gives more soldiers because of a cultural value attributed to it. I would start California with no military at all, as everyone there would retreat to communes, or starve to death because of the lack of government programs (we all know they would run out of water and power, takes alot to keep that desert green ) As far as the officer corps goes, they are all college graduates and escaping economic whatever is not a factor (no Southerner wants to "escape" the South).

Most of the Marines I know are pretty big constitutionalists, not blind followers. They would not support dictator, unless they agreed with where he was goint (dictators are not always bad, we have just ahd a rash of very bad ones in the last 100 years)

 

[MarineCorps]

Originally posted by sims2789
im only saying F-15's because they are the USA's UU. and i want no large custom animations for this scenario.

Then just replace the F-15 with the Harrier then.

 

[jimkirk]

aaron .. you dont like new york city.. phooey so move out of the freakin state .. go to hmmm pennsylvania maybe.. just because they raised our property tax by 18% or the mayor doesnt let you smoke ina restaurant isnt a reason not to like nyc (tongue in cheek) btw it was that upstater whose governor who enabled mike to raise taxes .. and hes an incompetent governor ..

(anyone form new york for a gubernatorial recall?)

 

[Al Zan]

HEY sims2789 when this scenario comeing out and is for ptw or Conquests?

 

[dramamine]

um, whoever said the confederacy banned slavery, could you please back that up? I'm pretty sure the south stuck with slavery until congress required that the 14th and 15th amendments be recognized by states before being admitted back into the union following the civil war.

 

[Sims2789]

Originally posted by Al Zan
HEY sims2789 when this scenario comeing out and is for ptw or Conquests?

first i'll have a vanilla Civ3 version, then i'll make a Conquests version on a later date. i have no plans for a PTW version.

 

[Lord Talon]

was just wondering what your plans were for the midwest (your synopsis didn't really list anything)

interesting scenario - I am looking forward to seeing how it turns out

 

[Thorgrimm]

I have been taking an informal poll of active and inactive Marines(their is no such thing as a former Marine, until you die) including a Major General, and we have come to the conclusion that if the vice-president did as you state the commandant would request of the Speaker of the House to refute the vice presidents actions and backed by the U.S. Supreme Court impeach and remove him from office, even by force if nessasary. And i do not think that there is any Army unit that would be able to prevent that. Thus your Second Civil War is stillborn. For those who do not know as per the CONSTITUTION of the UNITED STATES the Speaker of the House is third in command, and all the actions i have described are supported by the constitution. So unless you have him becoming suicidal you have to do the following things to make this scenario viable:

Eliminate the Speaker of the House, President pro tem of the Senate, and the Secretary of State.
Eliminate the Supreme Court
Make almost all of the Officer corps in the military corrupt beyond belief.Sims i do not think that you have ever served in the United states military.The reason for this one is that on enlistment and commissioning all personnel of the U.S. military take an oath to protect and defend the CONSTITUTION of the United States. NOT the GOVERNMENT of the United States.
Eliminate in its entirety The United States Marine Corps (good luck on that one).

I challenge you intellectually to come come up with a viable scenario that takes all my points in to consideration.If you cannot or will not we must consider this scenario a fantasy not alternative history.

I look forward to your reply.

 

[Duddha]

Damn Thorgrimm, feel like pulling that stick out of your rear anytime soon? Oh, sorry forgot, you're a marine.

 

[Amenhotep7]

Well, it would be nice to make the scenario slightly more viable, but if there was domestic trouble, Thorgrimm, perhaps the police brutality would become so high to maintain control of the populace, the US would essentially become a dictatorship...But this would take years of progression...And since pro-democratic parties farther from the capital want no part in this, they'd break away...And with Arnold Scharzenagger (Did I spell it right?) As governor of CA, of course it would be unstable!

P.S. My family was in the navy, and they were stationed in San Fransisco, so would one side of CA start with maybe a little navy?

 

[Thorgrimm]

@Duddha What is it about my post that you find out of line that makes you resort to childish name calling? Could it be the possibility that you cannot refute the points i made?

@Amenhotep 7 You are right about the pro democratic places in the nation. The point i was making is that the corps would DEFEND the Constitution in arresting the vice-president, thus preventing the coup. AKA the triumph of the forces of democracy. I doubt that those democratic forces would protest too much about the enforcing of the constitution. Thats why i stated the 4 points had to occur for the coup to be succesfull and the nation to break into parts. If your family is in the navy then you know that all naval bases and ships are garrisoned by Marine guard forces. Your "navy" would come into being if the ships slipped out of port without the guard force and then they overpowered the rest of the ships company.

If i am shooting holes into anybody's fantasy about the breakup of the United States i apologize, but with a masters in history i enjoy immensly alternative history that is both plausible and probable. In fact i want the scenario to succeed and be enjoyable in its entirety, but if it is not probable then you might as well add elves and orcs because it would be fantasy also.

 

[Sims2789]

Originally posted by Amenhotep7
...P.S. My family was in the navy, and they were stationed in San Fransisco, so would one side of CA start with maybe a little navy?

were they at the Alameda Naval Air Sation? since that base is a few blocks from where i live!

 

[Duddha]

@Duddha What is it about my post that you find out of line that makes you resort to childish name calling? Could it be the possibility that you cannot refute the points i made?

If you want an anwser just gain some humility and introspection and critically look at what you've written.

Case in point:

If i am shooting holes into anybody's fantasy about the breakup of the United States i apologize, but with a masters in history i enjoy immensly alternative history that is both plausible and probable. In fact i want the scenario to succeed and be enjoyable in its entirety, but if it is not probable then you might as well add elves and orcs because it would be fantasy also.

You're damn striaght it's fantasy, this is a GAME! Live a little, expand your imagination. And if you want an anwser for why I used childish words, it is in response to the childish attitude and arguments used in your post. While you may not say it explicitly, you're basicly calling Sim and anyone who agrees with him an idiot, something I'm sure he isn't appreciative of. While a masters in History may give you some authority in the area of hard facts and general background, it doesn't mean jack if you apply it in the wrong place and in the wrong manner. That's something you should of atleast learned from an undergradute degree, not to say anything of a masters.

 

[Duddha]

oh, and to keep my posts from being complete flaming, I would like to say that I like the basic layout of your senario sim. The only complaint I have is that as a Californian I would like to see a united California kick the butt of the United States, but I see why the game would be fun from your angle. It would also be no contest for a united California too.

 

[Thorgrimm]

No Duddha if i had wanted to call you an idiot i would have done so. My friend i have a great imagination that is put to use every day. And unlike you i do greatly respect everybody's opinion as it is protected by the constitution. As every person has the right to speak their mind. And i might point out that you are the one who is offended by my point of view, not vice versa, yet you would deny me and the people who have my point of view the right to voice that point of view. Yes i know it is a game. and i have enjoyed every incarnation of Civilization.

Also one question Duddha do you always debate with emotionalism, or from time to time do you try to use fact. And you have still not answered my challenge as to how create the conditions under which the coup could succeed. I have already drawn up a timeline where the coup has succeeded as described by Sims. If Sims or anybody else wishes to see it i will post it By the way Duddha i have lived more fully than you could ever have. I have seen the pyramids in Egypt, the colliseum in Rome, Mt. Fujiyama in Japan, the Great wall in China, the ruins of Angkor Wat in Thailand, all courtesy of the United States Marine Corps. How many of these have you seen? I suggest that you leave California on a journey of discovery for yourself, and try to use intelligence instead of emotionalism in your posts. Unless you are unable to. By the way i was born and raised in Pomona California and recieved my degree from the University of Southern California.

Sims i am looking forward to giving your scenario a try i was just trying to help with the background by trying to flesh out what happened to lead up to the unfourtnate event. If you want to see the timeline say so in a post and i will post it.

Thanks Thorgrimm

 

[Wyrmshadow]

Haha, very good Thorgrimm. Frankly from the very onset of this thread, and coming off the heels of a very inflamatory OT thread.. I just saw this as sims way of fullfilling a fantasy of punishing the South in any way he can.