Schooling the AI (Emperor Edition)

Some early game things to notice:

Identify the map

By that I mean figure out what is the bottleneck/troublesome part of it. For simplicity let's narrow it down to builds/economy and keep AI/diplomacy separate now.

This game was clearly low on commerce which everyone identified. In such situations you need to be careful with when and where you settle. It is crucial to reach writing and alphabet to be able to power out of increasing maintenance. When I said that I needed to watch out for "crashing my economy" I did not mean going on strike or getting negative income. What I meant was delaying the big techs by many turns.

If you swap the corn in the capital with gems I would play very differently. I would be able to expand more freely and still reach the important techs in a timely manner. Here I did not have this luxury so I was forced to squeeze out commerce from hills.
Spoiler :
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It can be tempting to keep settling cities until you reach 0 gold, but this can have a very detrimental effect if the cities are not exceptional. While working cottages ensure that you won't go on strike it will take a long time for them to get you to the "big" techs (Alphabet, Currency, Monarchy). Once you have reached these "threshold" techs there's a while before the next crucial one -- meaning that you can afford to let the economy slide a bit again. Furthermore, you now have tools to make almost all cities productive instantly by producing research/wealth. In this game I chose to prepare for war, but if there were more good cities available you would see me expanding a bunch after currency.

Some might say I've been running a CE here, but that would be misleading. What kick-started everything here was hammer economy (which I've now transitioned out of). Now I am bureaucracy based (if only I could remember to adopt it :p).

2: Population.

When you expand in the BCs, try to think of your empire as # of population points -- not as number of cities. It is far more useful to have 15 pop divided over 3 cities than 12 over 5 (assuming there are decent tiles to work). Always grow your cities to the happiness cap and take advantage of hereditary rule -- you want double-digit cities in the BCs if health allows it. Growing early helped bring me a 50 base commerce and 22 base hammers capital now.

City examples:
Spoiler :
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If I had expanded more I would not have gotten monarchy as fast, which would mean much slower growth -> less cottages matured and the city would not look like this until much later.

Rusten,

Thank you for this post. It's great that you take the time to explain the finer points of this game. I win regularly on Monarch but I know that I am far from knowing everything. I also appreciated your advice from a few posts ago when unhappy citizens don't eat food when building a settler/worker (I never thought about that).

When you say this map is commerce poor, this is an issue I have sometimes trouble identifying. I usually cottage-spam to over-come this. I know it isn't optimal, but that's how I try and compensate. I haven't mastered getting over commerce-poor starts.

When you say commerce-poor, I assume you mean:

- lack of riverside grassland?
- no gold, gems or silver or calendar resources?

By building the GLH (which even I can see was a good call), you addressed your lack of commerce greatly. Let's say you don't have 4 coastal cities, the GLH wouldn't have been a good idea.

I think alot of players say REXing is the way to go and that you should have x amount of cities by 1AD but they sometimes forget the fact that based on the map, REXing isn't always a good idea (like you've demonstrated).
 
hmm it seems that Monarchy is better tech target then CoL+Currency, usually if I have around 2-3 happy faces I prioritize currency.
If I have around 3 calendar sources I go for calendar even before currency... it seems to me I am doing it wrong ;-)

btw when you get Mids, you stick with Rep or HR for early big city?
 
^^ There is ABSOLUTLY no reason to waste hammers on the mids if you don't plan on representation (or police state :D). Just get your hands on monarchy if you want HR.

Cheers
 
Turns out there are 2 overseas AIs that can be reached by work boat... and one of them is Mansa Musa. *sigh*
Sure would've liked to to trade with him earlier.

I adopt Buddhism and Bureaucracy+OR. I have a fair amount of buildings to build.

I split my stack in two and capture Vienna and Nuremberg. There's no threat now, I've killed most of his units.

Trade for Hammurabi's world map and find evidence of MM and WvO existence 560 AD.
Spoiler :
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Space is the goal so I pick up UoS.
Spoiler :
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660 AD: Capture Prague and Charlie is left with just 1 (poor) city to the north.
Spoiler :
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NE in Nanjing and Moai+HE in Guangzhou.
Spoiler :
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Bulb the remainder of education with a GS and get started on 6 universities.

Met both overseas AIs but have not been able to trade.
Coming tech path should be Gunpowder-Engineering (trade for)-chemistry.
I am looking to declare on Isabella soon. All the good cities are on flat terrain and she has the Temple of Salomon.

Speaking of shrines -- my NE city is now working on the Buddhist one. I look to start a GA with the GS once OU finishes and will then adopt pacifism.
Spoiler :
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Beijing close to maxed out.
Spoiler :
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interesting that you didn't razed Vienna... would expect that you resettle it 1S (or something) to work the gems as commerce tile
 
Wouldn't it make more sense to get corn and run some specialists in Beijing, instead of those 2f2c tiles ?
 
vranasm said:
interesting that you didn't razed Vienna... would expect that you resettle it 1S (or something) to work the gems as commerce tile
The effect a single tile has is much lower once you reach that phase of the game. Razing and settling in a better spot would be very very wrong. In the late game this gem tile will be no better than others.

The city was about 6 size -- that's either 180 hammers with the whip or saved time growing the city.
Then there's the cost of making a new settler in addition to that.
The city also had a couple of buildings remaining (granary and aqueduct IIRC).
Edzako said:
Wouldn't it make more sense to get corn and run some specialists in Beijing, instead of those 2f2c tiles ?
Coast with bureaucracy gives 3 commerce which is the same as a scientist at 100% slider. A scientist is slightly better as it's independant of the slider and you're guaranteed academy effect, but you lose out on 2 food in the process.
 
The start is commerce poor and you've said Elephants were unnecessary. Given these two pieces of info would you still pick up Hunting so early in a replay / similar situation?

Is the tech bonus really that good? How is a new player to know the optimal order to maximize the bonus beakers?

Thank you for the thread and the depth of the discussion so far. :-)
 
Hunting also brings one immediate happiness here and potentially another if you can hook up fur. It has its use outside of the overkill elephants hehe.

Though bypassing it brings cheap warriors for HR into the equation (not sure how Rusten got so many with hunting :p)...
 
Yes, I think I'd still go hunting.

The tech bonus is +20% to AH research. Considering how much more AH costs than hunting you'll find that get many of the beakers back immediately.

- - - -

Finished the game. 1806 Arrival. Can definitely be improved, but considering the map I'm ok with it.
Spoiler/shadow restrictions off now.

Will post about the first turns since the last set, but towards the end I went autopilot -- not much to gain from looking at that.
 
Decided to pick up archery. CKN+phants combo leaves me covered for everything.

I attack Izzy, but I'm not putting time into showcasing war tactics, that's for a different thread. In short I split my army into two (one bigger stack) and had most of the siege gathered in the bigger stack headed for the bigger cities. A smaller stack took out the northern cities.

Tech path went Philosophy-Gunpowder-Liberalism (chemistry). I also picked up guilds and engineering in trade. The next step is SP for reduced maintenance and +1 workshop food.
I get my Prophet 1150 AD.

After SP I beelined AL for factory+coal plant. Cities avoid building expensive commerce multipliers and instead go for only hammers. I also relocate my palace to my IW.
Even marginal cities like Ulm pull in a good amount of income once :hammers: buildings are up.
Spoiler :
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The HE city has been making units constantly so after capitulating Izzy I look towards grabbing some US land. After Roosevelt I took some land from Hammurabi. All of this was made with the same unit type (CKN, cata/treb, elephants and some knights and muskets eventually). It's an early unit combo that's very strong for a long time. As long as you have siege you do not need to update your army, just keep rolling through AIs. I had my HE city produce 1 accuracy treb every turn to help bombard city defense.

After a bit of force end turn I win.
Spoiler :
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A bit of a rushed ending, but up until 1000 AD is the more interesting part.
I could write more, but it's time-consuming and hard to mention everything. Better you ask questions if there's anything you miss -- much easier for me.
 
Thanks a lot, that's very very useful for players who are trying to improve their game at emperor level (me, for instance.)

Does the size of the map change something ? I find it really hard on huge map, but maybe it's just an impression.

I really never know when to run wealth or research in my cities. Infrastructures or units always seem a more attractive choice, which is probably a mistake.
 
Heres my 125 BC, I should be done shortly... Y'all can guess whether theres any difference in the time to space.

Spoiler :

I picked up wheel - pottery first and started on cottages first thing since cottaged sugar is better to me than a couple mines as we'll be whipping workers/settlers for awhile. After BW/AH/fishing it was straight for the oracle for Metal Casting. We've got Cho-Kos so machinery is the target.

This delayed getting libraries up, but it also meant I got settlers and workers out earlier nabbing me an extra city and allowing more cottage growth. Last city added 15 gold to the deficit, slowing down machinery but will add units. Thankfully Mansa is in the game and he picked up alphabet this turn allowing me to start working on CS.

EDIT popped gold a few turns before this screenshot. Too bad the AIs have nothing to trade for. I built a road to HRE late, kicking myself for not getting connected to the other AIs - if you are late they will trade away things before you have a chance. I had routes with America via wb for commerce...

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Rusten can you post some save files leading up to the conclusion? I'd shadow the game, but I'd be too embarrassed to post the results :> I hope you keep making these games. The level of detail and thought you put into your decisions makes me feel bad about how much I rush through the game :/ In most of my EMP games I hit 1000 A.D in less than an hour played and that's definitely holding me back from beating IMM more consistently.
 
Space win at 1806AD...wow..I get that on Noble, you on Emperor...

Could you give details as to how you go it so quickly? I mean, you started out in a low commerce area and all of a sudden, you research quickly enough to win space that early. Plus, you say you could have done better???:eek:

From a production standpoint, tech AL surely helped building the space parts. But getting to the end of the tech tree that quickly is pretty amazing.

We're your production cities building Wealth? How many dedicated commerce cities did you have? Was bulbing a big part of your research?

Hopefully you can share some details.
 
But getting to the end of the tech tree that quickly is pretty amazing.

In fact, it's there that AL is shining. With factories and other production multipliers, any cities can produce decent amount of science or gold (by actually building it! - look Ulm). It's not just about building parts (or tones of infantries :D).

When u get 20 of them, it quickly adds up.
Imo bulbs are mostly usefull early on (getting u to fast communism or fast corps).
 
Alamankarazieff said:
Thanks a lot, that's very very useful for players who are trying to improve their game at emperor level (me, for instance.)

Does the size of the map change something ? I find it really hard on huge map, but maybe it's just an impression.

I really never know when to run wealth or research in my cities. Infrastructures or units always seem a more attractive choice, which is probably a mistake.
Map size doesn't change much. There are minor nuances like more trade routes to go around, but in terms of decision making I don't see much of a difference.

The way to figure out whether to build infrastructure or wealth/research is to calculate how much the building would net you and multiply it with # of turns left. If the multiplier beats hammers invested then it's worth it.

I did no such calculations here, I rushed through it.
Grashopa said:
Heres my 125 BC, I should be done shortly... Y'all can guess whether theres any difference in the time to space.
Looking forward to see the rest of the game. Nice gold in the capital :p

My suspicion is that you've made the same mistake I did. Why get CKN when axes+swords is enough. ;)
oppy said:
Rusten can you post some save files leading up to the conclusion? I'd shadow the game, but I'd be too embarrassed to post the results :> I hope you keep making these games. The level of detail and thought you put into your decisions makes me feel bad about how much I rush through the game :/ In most of my EMP games I hit 1000 A.D in less than an hour played and that's definitely holding me back from beating IMM more consistently.
Saves attached.
yanner39 said:
Space win at 1806AD...wow..I get that on Noble, you on Emperor...

Could you give details as to how you go it so quickly? I mean, you started out in a low commerce area and all of a sudden, you research quickly enough to win space that early. Plus, you say you could have done better???

From a production standpoint, tech AL surely helped building the space parts. But getting to the end of the tech tree that quickly is pretty amazing.

We're your production cities building Wealth? How many dedicated commerce cities did you have? Was bulbing a big part of your research?

Hopefully you can share some details.
1806 itself is not that special. In botm 26 (also emperor) I arrived 1740 AD, but of course that was an easier/more fruitful map.

Things I could do better:

Perhaps the biggest mistake towards the end was forgetting that the AI could get the Statue of Liberty. :p I lost it to MM having 1479/1500 hammers invested. Considering the amount of cities I had this set me back quite a bit.

I was a little late with my GSs. I only had 1 for education and then failed to bulb SM for communism.

Production cities build wealth until sustainable 100% slider and then research.
I only had Beijing as a commerce city, I did not build a single cottage after Civil Service, it's all about growth then. Farm -> grow to happy/health cap -> workshops with guilds+chemistry.

I did not bulb much. The only bulbs I can remember is education (1), some industrial tech (1) and a tech towards the end as no GA was attainable.
 

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You can start attacking much sooner with cats+swords/axes so I'm convinced it's better.

While CKN does collateral it doesn't remove cultural defense and they cost 10 hammers more than cats. If you look at my taking of Aachen I lost 0 units and 1 catapult.

For 5 CKN you can have 4 catapults and 3 axes.
 
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