[GS] Science in the new patch and Trajan 'The Beast'

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Strategy & Tips' started by Jerovich, Jun 24, 2019.

  1. Gaonac'h

    Gaonac'h Chieftain

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    Yeah under t140 might be a bit too optimistic, but I think if I was able to get a classical golden age or even a normal one and a great prophet it would have been close.
    Also just replaying the map while having full knowledge of it would (obviously) shave a lot of turns. But that would be cheating or at least not very interesting to me.
    What is this Oligarchy bug?
     
  2. Vizurok

    Vizurok Magyar Soldier

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    @Gaonac'h
    It seems that that units do not lose the Oligarchy +4 combat strength bonus even after switching to T2 governments (without the legacy card).

    @Victoria
    Thanks for the heads-up on your game. Not upgrading the Legions might have saved you some money, but Musketman upgrades do not really cost that much, so I fear that my gold management had deeper flaws that need to be adressed. I presume that the key things that I was missing is more proactive early diplomacy and scouting - for example, I did not consider the military and trade value of delegations in my first game that saved me like one Legion upgrade but ultimately cost more in the later game. I was toying with some replays of the early game, but it seems that I must have had hit the best goody huts on my first run as I struggled to assemble the army and the science/culture output that I had on the first try. (My problems might be caused by spending more on diplomacy and scouting, or simply blind luck.)

    Also, I do like the idea of going for the pillage run on one of the flanks but I am not convinced that the numbers would support that. I mean, you avoid grivances and the gain the possibility of maybe being able to do later pillage runs but you lose a lot of chops and the actual value of having more cities. This would require pen, paper and a calculator but I'm not up for this challenge.

    One more question if I may. I have read most of the strategy threads on science victories but I don't think that there has been an update on which wonders are considered essential for the quick win. I have my personal list, but I would love to get some insight whether I am wasting Magnus and chops on rather useless wonders. So, here we go:
    1. Pyramids
    2. Oracle (I am guessing that this might not be essential, but it harmonizes so well with Pingala that I would feel guilty to not build this)
    3. Colosseum (I am sure that Colosseum can be skipped but it's just too good to ignore).
    4. Great Library
    5. Kilwa
    6. Oxford
    7. Big Ben
    8. Amundsen-Scott
     
  3. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    @Gaonac'h I’m interested in mechanics, winning has zero significance and so replaying is quite acceptable. But playing a science game more efficiently takes a lot of effort for me, I always just want to press next.
    I lost the Oracle in my game. It is not vital but you undershot the moon culture a bit then perhaps you needed it as an option.
    Great Lib... like why... for 2 more writer slots? Would a theatre be better?
    Is Amundsen worth it? Did it make a difference? You had the chops left then sure but I would have taken Eiffel.
    Forbidden city? Maccu Picchu? These are not necessary but good enough.
    I have seen many good players build Ruhr valley instead of oxford, as well as is always an option.
    This game is a beast, T100 and 313 science per turn on rerun and 30 cities.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019
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  4. Minou

    Minou King

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    Ok this map sounds too good to miss out on. I’m finishing the GOTM today and would like to try this out to ride me over till the August GOTM. Thanks for posting!
     
  5. Gaonac'h

    Gaonac'h Chieftain

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    @Victoria
    I am not sure what mechanics mean but the things you learn by playing this map are probably applicable too most random pangea maps.
    You can feel where and when you did mistakes. For example : I should have done Classical Republic/Oligarchy rather than Autocracy/Oligarchy I should have also made a better use of Theoricracy. I could have chop Amundsen-Scott but I didn't plan it well enough. Etc etc. Lot of small and bigger mistakes I learned from.
    Off course if you are fine with it there is nothing wrong to replay and make the "perfect" game but I personally don't have the dedication to play this map a second time.
     
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  6. Minou

    Minou King

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    I’m ignorant of the final phase of Space Victory in GS.

    Would someone point me towards a good post on this, or give me the basics? e.g. how many Spaceports to build (or buy), and whether projects are just chopped nowadays or actually produced? Are the space-related Great People now totally unattainable due to slow era advance or is it possible to amass huge amounts of gold faith to burn through to them buy buying out earlier era GP?
     
  7. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    When I see screenshots of people's victories here they always have insane beakers (science) per turn. upwards of 1000 BPT, some people even 2000 or 3000 BPT. I honestly never get more than 1000 BPT, most of my games I manage to finish with around 700-900 BPT. I usually have 15-20 cities up by T100, so I don't think that is where the issue lies. @Jerovich has even 3,441 BPT, @Gaonac'h has 2000, @Vizurok also above 2000. How was your experience, did you put a lot of turns into future tech or was your science barely enough to get you all the relevant techs when you needed them?

    I think the execution of the final turns, especially centralized production, is key here. With 2000 BPT science is definitely not your bottleneck for a fast victory. Perhaps city projects and GP were nerfed from vanilla, or perhaps we, the people, still have yet to figure out the absolute optimal way to produce all the components necessary for space victory.

    Another highly interesting question is at which point exactly one should stop investing in science and focus on things like maximum trade route capacity, centralized production and synergistic bonuses. I usually stop building any science-related buildings shortly before getting my spaceport, because I know the early GS I've saved up plus my population growth plus my already decent science (around 500 at that point, prolly) will be enough for me to finish and any further investment would be wasted: I barely to ever build research labs aside from getting the Eurekah, for example. How do you people feel about this?
     
  8. Gaonac'h

    Gaonac'h Chieftain

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    @Minou
    For end game planning for SV I feel like there is 2 big scenario : One where you focus on culture to reach Democracy/Globalization, and one where you just try to push science as hard as you can.

    If you have good culture you won't need more than 2 spaceports(bought with Reyna). The first one will be used to launch Satellite, Moon landing, Mars colony, Exoplanet expedition with Royal society and Pingala established with the 3rd promo. You can put 1 or 2 chops in the Exoplanet expedition but just try to save your chops for Lasers projects.
    When you discover the techs allowing you to launch Lagrange and Terrestrial laser you can start chopping both cities at the same time(one with Pingala, the other with Magnus). While you are chopping projects make sure your cities are powered, you need A LOT of charges to chops and improve the city with Solar and Wind farms.
    Before buying your spaceports you should be planning on getting Big ben and enough treasury to buy 2 spaceports, 2 encampements+buildings, tiles(you need a lof of money for tiles) and if you are planning on getting Amundsen-Scott uni+techlab.

    If your science is very strong but have poor culture you might need to go with 3 spaceports, the first one will chop Satellite and Moon landing with Magnus to reach T3 governement and Royal society so you can boost with 7 charges builders the Mars colony and Exoplanet expedition projects and chop Lasers.
    The first spaceport city need just enough chops for Satellite and Moon landing and don't need an encampement. Be careful with your governor titles because you will need the 3rd promotion of Reyna earlier and the Royal society come after the first spaceport.
    You can't delay Big ben to grow a bigger treasury because you need the first spaceport very fast. If you are low on money you can build Eiffel tower and use Neighborhoods gold to buy the 2 lasts spaceports/tiles/etc... but it require some planning and builders charges at a time where builders are already very expensive.
    Amundsen-Scott will come too late to be useful in this scenario I think and is too costy.

    Some advices:
    You don't need productive spaceports cities but lot of trees.
    Make sure to save 2/3 chops in your governement plaza city for Royal society.
    Consider getting Bolshoi Theatre and Oxford University, very nice wonders for SV.
    Don't forget to established Liang close to your spaceport city for 7 charges builders.
    3rd promo on Moksha can be very good if you want to buy a campus with faith near snow(for Amundsen) while Reyna buy spaceports.
    Start saving your low charges builders when starting to plan the Big ben city. (don't forget to chop crabs/copper before Big ben)
    You can buy a settler with faith to chop even more workers near your spaceports cities if you need more workforce.
    You need A LOT of charges to chop and keep you spaceports cities powered!

    Timing may vary a little depending on map/city-states/civs etc....
    4/5 spaceports seems unreasonable.

    I don't recall everything on this game but I won the game 4/5 turns after launching the Exoplanet expedition.
    You really don't have to worry too much about production. The new bottleneck I would say is how many builders charges you were able to save for the last phase.
    Tech lab is a good investment but you have to power up the city to make full use of it's bonus or reach T4 governement.
     
  9. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    When you get to globalisation you get 5% science per CS you are suzerain of.
    The rationalisation card also gives you 50 or 100% per city
    Then there is Kilwa and Amundsen-Scott.
    It is not impossible to get 2500 per turn, in fact quite common for good brutal play.

    Having spare chop spaceports do help. Hence the Aztec advantage of using a builder to make a spaceport.

    A 200+ production city does help.
    A military academy and Hong Kong help with charges and chop.

    To me it’s about planning eurekas to get to the spaceport and ensuring you get enough moon landing culture to get you to globalisation. Naturally planning all the other things but these 2 are the key throttle/brake. For example, chop enough science projects on the moon landing turn you can get further but ISS is the target.

    No, you do not need labs but 2500 science makes people feel good and with a pillage getting 2 in a turn can help (overflow limitations stop more)

    A lot of the rest is practice and timing.

    @Boyan_Sun may I kindly ask what the current record is for GS SV on the Chinese forums? I know you do not visit often but just trying to ask someone.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
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