Scientists Agree - We are Ruining the World

Carbonic acid comes to mind. China's CO2 emissions will tend to dissolve in local waters, so any theoretical damage done to drinking water and fisheries would mostly be done there. To what degree, exactly? I don't know.

In general, however, the damage being done by China's pollution is being done in China.

If carbonic acid comes to mind, you'd be wrong ;) It's a weak acid, and as we've covered before, it doesn't matter where you emit the CO2, give it a few weeks, and it's spread itself out pretty uniformly. If you moved the entire Earth's CO2 emissions to a point source in Botswana, you'd see the same effects.
 
Without trying to discredit you by screaming "SOURCE", could you provide an example of a public program to reduce emissions? For I haven't heard any
Clean Air Act or Clean Water Act ring any bells?

And by the way, the US isn't the one with a small moon sized brown cloud hanging over it.
 
We DID commit to reducing the damage we do. Just not with pathetic sham treaties such as Kyoto. We cleaned up our polluted rivers and implemeneted public programs to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Other nations failed to learn from our example. They went right ahead and made all the same mistakes the U.S. already made decades ago.

And there's a second reason: because the damage they do is going to do destroy them while merely being inconvenient for us.

Take a look at China. China has a serious problem with pollution right now. And by serious, I mean a lot worse than the United States. Now, take a look at where the damage is. The pollution is in CHINA, not the United States. The smog is OVER THERE. The lung cancer is OVER THERE. The lead poisoning is OVER THERE. The only potentially worldwide effect China is having is through greenhouse gases, and they're dropping the ball there, too--they're going right ahead and making the same mistakes.

China had a chance to learn from America's mistakes. They blew it.

Cobblers throughout.

The US has made NO binding commitments to addressing climate change.

You don't seem to be able to distinguish between actions taken to address local water pollution issues ('clean rivers'), particulate pollution ('smog'), ozone depletion and climate change.

Yes the US has taken action on water and particulate pollution, and has participated in the ozone depletion programme which, incidentally, is a perfect example of international pollution reduction targets being agreed and met across developed and developing economies).

Yes industrialising countries such as China and India are suffering water and particulate pollution.

But these are not the same issue as climate change.

The current US adminstration has refused to participate in any meaningful emission reduction programmes, domestically or internationally - thankfully your state and city governments are making some progress, but you are way behind Europe and Japan on this.

The US is the least efficient major country in the world at turning emissions into GDP, the highest emitter per head, the largest emitter overall and contributes substantially (120 m tons of CO2 equivalent in 2003) to global CO2 equivalent growth.

To put it another way, the best estimate of the average per capita emission that can be safely absorbed by the planet is 4-5 ton per year.

France uses about 50% more than this, the UK and Germany about double, China about 40% less, India about one fifth of the 'safe allowance'. All of the above - including China and India - are aiming to achieve post-industrialisation at or below the safe emissions level per capita

The US uses between four and five times the safe level per capita. Despite the already enormous level of US emissions, it is responsible for more than 30% of the world's growth in emissions (1990-2003) at a time when other industrialised countries have curtailed growth in emissions or even brought about reductions.

It is simply rubbish to blame the problem on those countries with low per capita and absolute levels of emissions. There is no solution without the US understanding and accepting its contribution to the problem. Bush expecting the rest of the world to carry his country's problem for him is ridiculous.

BFR
 
Clean Air Act or Clean Water Act ring any bells?

And by the way, the US isn't the one with a small moon sized brown cloud hanging over it.

Oh, Canada is no shining beacon of example to the world, that much I know. I just wish it would change.

And as far as I know, the Clean Air Act, while a good peice of legislation, is from the 60's, and does not apply to greenhouse gases specifically, mostly dealing with smog issues, and sulphur dioxide.
 
Regardless of legislation, there are dozens of easy ways we can reduce our pollution output. Reducing packaging, reducing shipping distances of our goods, decreasing our power consumption (or increasing its efficiency), etc.

And again, I think trade embargoes will need to be held against 'polluter' countries to bring them on board.
 
Well said, BFR. The idea that global warming is (and I admit I paraphrase here ) because China and India aren't able to be good environmental citizens like the US, is one of the most self-deluding things I've read on this forum.
 
Well said, BFR. The idea that global warming is (and I admit I paraphrase here ) because China and India aren't able to be good environmental citizens like the US, is one of the most self-deluding things I've read on this forum.

I think its rather self-delusional to think the U.S would sign an agreement which effectively handicaps its economic policy and lets china and india get the lead with no compliance from them.

Kyoto anyone?
 
Xanikk - I hope you read BFR's post. The West, particularly the US, has the greatest responsibility for the global warming. China and India's GDP per capita are well behind that of the US anyway, and would not overtake it due to the US curbing its carbon emissions.

Just as a side issue, I don't really understand the paranoia here either - economic growth isn't a race, and it's not like the cold war where the US might have felt its security was threatened by a stronger military force.

As regards my expectations, frankly, I don't expect the US to ratify Kyoto (you already have signed it, I think), because, as a nation, it seems remarkably blinkered and short-sighted on this issue. Not sure how bad things will have to get before the US (CA excepted) really takes this seriously.
 
LambertSimnel said:
Xanikk - I hope you read BFR's post. The West, particularly the US, has the greatest responsibility for the global warming. China and India's GDP per capita are well behind that of the US anyway, and would not overtake it due to the US curbing its carbon emissions.

We should all have equal responsibity. I dont see it as fair for the U.S to have to cripple production if many countries dont have to follow the same guidelines on thier emissions. Even if they dont emit as much.

The U.S should not bear the greatest load. Nobody should. And nobody should be exempt either. And i disagree about the U.S having the greatest responsibility for global warming. Especially considering we dont have the greatest carbon emissions. I thought that was canada?
 
You might be interested enough to do some research as to who has the most emissions: then look at that on a 'per capita' basis, as well as a 'land size' basis.

As well, it's entirely possible to continue economic growth while not increasing CO2 output.
 
I think its rather self-delusional to think the U.S would sign an agreement which effectively handicaps its economic policy and lets china and india get the lead with no compliance from them.

Kyoto anyone?

Economics is not a zero-sum game. And the U.S. got "the lead" in the first place, by emitting more than everyone else anyway. Plus, you can base a market on very efficient products. The demand for GM's EV1's was fairly high, and Japanese hybrids continue to sell very well. People like to buy low-emission stuff, because it a) saves them money, and b) makes them feel slightly better about themselves.
 
Actually it seems now many scientists are finally coming out and saying the truth that global warming ins't really man made and its not that big of a deal. They are taking a huge risk but they want the truth out there.
 
How do you know its the truth? Global warming or no, continuing the way we are isn't the most stellar plan.
 
Actually it seems now many scientists are finally coming out and saying the truth that global warming ins't really man made and its not that big of a deal. They are taking a huge risk but they want the truth out there.
Which ones are you referring to?
 
Narz;5035658■ Snow will vanish from all but the highest peaks.:■ Snow will vanish from all but the highest peaks [QUOTE said:
About damn time its cold in Illinois
 
We should all have equal responsibity. I dont see it as fair for the U.S to have to cripple production if many countries dont have to follow the same guidelines on thier emissions. Even if they dont emit as much.

The U.S should not bear the greatest load. Nobody should. And nobody should be exempt either. And i disagree about the U.S having the greatest responsibility for global warming. Especially considering we dont have the greatest carbon emissions. I thought that was canada?

You see, this is the kind of emotive comment that makes the debate worthless:
'I dont see it as fair for the U.S to have to cripple production'

The only serious estimate I have seen for the economic impact of emission reduction is that from the UK, based on actual experienced from 1998-2003, of 0.01-0.02% of GDP per annum - that's hardly crippling the US economy, in fact it's a rounding difference.

Now I would agree that the initial reductions may be easier and cheaper to produce than those in later years. But still, lets not overstate the case - the economic impact of emission control will almost certainly be small, and likely very small.

The honest objection is to lifestyle change - telling people they no longer have the god-given right to emit whatever they like cost-free wil be very unpopular. Some people are going to hate that, probably the same people who hate paying taxes. US national politicians are too damn weak to face up to givign their constituents bad news, although thankfully local politicians seem to have far more backbone for some reason.

Finally what logic - other than naked self-interest - leads you to say that the US should not bear the greatest load? The US causes the largest part of the problem, are you really so arrogant to think that the rest of us should clear up your ****?

No-one expects to be exempt - it's just no-one expects to shovel the US' manure for them either. Why should they?

BFR
 

Mountain snow is a source of fresh water during the summers. If the snow does not accumulate sufficiently, it all melts too early, then there will not be healthy streams/rivers in the late summer for people to draw from. At that point, you're left with your aquifer levels. Many places have been pulling water from their aquifers faster than it's being replenished.

I invite you to investigate the historical levels of your local aquifers before judging about diminishing snow levels.
 
I think I am starting to see why people think it's a problem and why people see government regs as a solution. Without rules from above, it's generally cheaper to NOT control emmissions and other pollution since you are effectively transferring the costs from the polluting company to society.

I see progress at the local level and I don't think the extreme solutions are good policy, though.

I had already decided to make my next vehicle a hybrid if it's available then, not because it's good for the environment but because I like the concept of the technology. (Electric motors get peak torque at 0mph, when gas and diesel engines are at their lowest efficiency. Engineers like me dig this stuff.) Now I have another reason.
 
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