Scions documentation

[MaxAstro]

In the first post, God King still claims to give a spawn rate bonus. In game, however, it does not seem to, and I thought I saw something in the changelog about that being taken out.

Of course, I've already made my arguments about why that bonus SHOULD be there (The Risen Emperor IS a God-King, worship of the Gift and the Emperor is supposed to draw the Awakened out, having God King be a useful civic past the very early game is nice, etc.), but at the very least the first page should reflect what is actually going on.

 

[Tarquelne]

In the first post, God King still claims to give a spawn rate bonus. In game, however, it does not seem to, and I thought I saw something in the changelog about that being taken out.

Thanks. Corrected, and the correction should be in the pedia as of the next patch.

Of course, I've already made my arguments...

I remember. They're a large part of why God King get its new, later-game, advantages: True Pilgrims, and Scions keep more population from a captured city if they're using God King. (The Awakened, according to this new version, are more concerned with whats in it for *them*. They like Aristocracy.)

 

[AngelGabriel]

Are the Scions supposed to rock the house that hard? I mean I play on Noble and while all AI players get about 300-400 points I already have 965 points. All of 8 my cities are at least at pop 5 (one at 8) and even though I don't have that great deal of military strength none of them dares to offend me. Heck, the Sheaim are the only ones who tend to go to war against me and they don't even have pyre zombies. Did I have a lucky round where everything went well or are Scions really that strong?

 

[Methuselah]

are Scions really that overpowered?

And the answer is yes, they are.

 

[odalrick]

Since you're playing at Noble, I'd venture a guess that you simply learned enough to outperform the AI.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

At Monarch, I have yet to finish a game with the Scions. I do not think they are overpowered...

 

[Methuselah]

At Monarch, I have yet to finish a game with the Scions. I do not think they are overpowered...

Do you normally finish your games?
And
Do you mean just not finishing, or you're getting wiped out/the AI is beating you to victory?

To me, the scions have very powerful benefits with very few offsets.

 

[Tarquelne]

I'd like them to be balanced, and despite speculation to the contrary I don't try to make them unbalanced. However, I generally play on Immortal and I generally win when I don't play the Scions. When I play the Scions I play on Immortal and I generally win - seems about the same to me.

So I pretty much have to go off feedback. I've made a lot of balance adjustments in the past, and I plan on making more in the future. However, I do want more than "I think X is OP." before making a change, especially if there's no discussion about it among posters here.

A couple of things to keep in mind:

An adjustment to the spawning-rate for difficulty-level is pretty new and I've had little or no feedback on it. That's the first place to look IMO.

Map Script/settings can have a big influence on the Scions. Imagine an all hills/plains map, for example. Well, the closer to that map, the better the Scions will do. Some scripts get closer than others. Number of resources could be another big influence: The setting that doubles the # of resources tilts things toward Scions.

 

[Methuselah]

I'd like them to be balanced, and despite speculation to the contrary I don't try to make them unbalanced.

Really? The patrian bazaar and their immunity to Armageddon implies otherwise to me.

Of course, talking about Armageddon, can you tell me what the point of this second part of code is:

[SPOILER]if (pPlayer.hasTrait(gc.getInfoTypeForString('TRAIT_FALLOW')) == False and pPlayer.getCivilizationType() != gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_SCIONS')):[/SPOILER]

If the aim was to make Scions immune to Armageddon pop decrease: They already were due to Fallow, thus the second part is needless.

If the aim was to make Scions affected by Armageddon pop decrease: You've coded it wrong, they're still unaffected by it. Using "or" if the civ was Scions is what should have been used. You may go test if you don't believe me, their cities won't be affected by the pop decrease at 100 AC.

 

[odalrick]

On the matter of balancing, is Korinna balanced against the emperor?

The Emperor gets his own personalized religion, Charismatic, Arcane, Creative-lite, reborn from combat and his choice of two heroes, one of which is immortal.

Korrinna gets reduced spawn rate and not much else...

At least let her build Legates.

 

[MaxAstro]

Korinna can adopt a religion, which makes a huge difference. Also, the Risen Emperor is a ridiculously powerful hero.

I do tend to play as the Emperor, but my friend swears by Korinna. I think they both have their strengths and weaknesses. One of my favorite things about the Scions is that they are almost two different civs.

 

[odalrick]

Exactly what is the big advantage of adopting a religion?

Granted, late game, priests upgraded to redactors are solid, but is there anything more?

Some extra happiness? More food from forests?

I'm not saying it's not an advantage, but is it big enough to balance the lowered pop?

I've been trying to play a few games to get a feeling for their relative strength, but with the patches and the psychotic AI, I haven't been able to compare them.

Being forced down the arcane line (without being arcane as well) and the drama line and the priest line... Seems like a huge penalty.

 

[Iceciro]

Religions give you access to their heroes, their related techs (Arete, Demonic Pact, et al) and make your citizens happy which is the real popcap for Scions.

The Scions' randomness can make them very powerful or very not, depending on how you're doing. I had a long period where I just didn't get any Awakened thanks to the RNG (I mean about 75 or more turns of just getting NO freaking poppoints/settlers) and my growth stagnated as I got new technologies with new units costing more Hammers but not having the pop to build them at any great speed. This actually enabled one of my AI enemies to take some land I'd cleared out with Korinna from a war, and grow all big and angry at me.

Part of the reasons Scions feel overpowered right now (in Patch E currently) is that the AI in Fall Further has just been really anemic lately. Something's wrong with the difficulty settings at this rate, I think. I had Redactors, said massive AI that had about half the island was still protecting herself with unupgraded Freaks and Scouts. And this was after that long lull where I got no awakened and had really bad production/research. It feels like the AI has been given a lobotomy, and the Scions are pretty powerful in the hands of a human player because despite the randomness of Awakened/Reborn, the ability to put cities where you want with no regard for food or for pop caps beyond happiness lets you do interesting things.

I can't decide whether Korninna the Red is really strong or not, myself. I think in my current game I just upgraded her well, and the fact that she got a Mana Flare mutation giving her Strong/Blitz/Poison Resistant/Cannibalize probably had a lot to do with it.

On the subject of heroes, does anyone ever actually create the Dark Council? The benefits I saw from it didn't outweigh having the Artful Governor, the Diplomat-Guy of Pop-Stealing, and the Ultimate Scoutguy running around. (Though I have never been able to do anything but found the Keep with the Mage before he runs off to go be utterly psychotic.)

And lastly - When my Korinna got mutated, she was still shackled, and somehow she ended up with two copies of enraged, not one, enabling her to run around and beat the everloving crap out of a barbarian skeleton sitting on a barrows outside my town.

 

[Tarquelne]

Really? The patrian bazaar and their immunity to Armageddon implies otherwise to me.

The first was changed as soon as it was mentioned in the forum.
I was going to change it anyway after finally seeing how it behaved in-game - I'd greatly over-corrected.

The second I also changed as soon as it was mentioned.

There was no provision for Scions previously simply because I'd never had a AC 100 game with the Scions and assumed the Infernal exception looked for the Infernal civ, not the trait.

However, I made a mistake. Yes, that happens. I got confused by the negative (looking for "False") and when I saw that Scion units were getting hit I stopped testing.

However, later that day, after realizing I could and should hit Undead Scion units too, I changed the function again. I think I mentioned that in the thread. I caught the bug then but I wouldn't have minded being told of it earlier.

You seem to have drawn your own conclusion, but what all that implies to me is simply that I need help balancing (and making) the civ.

A big "Thanks!" to everyone who's been giving bug reports, making suggestions, etc.: It's not just helpful, it's essential.

 

[Tarquelne]

Some questions:

Should Alcinus have his "turn barbarian" per/turn chance lowered?

Should it be easier to get Emperor's Daggers for those occasions when Alcinus goes AWOL?

***********

On the matter of balancing, is Korinna balanced against the emperor?

Good question - In the early days of the mod some major imbalances were eliminated, but I haven't looked into it for quite awhile.

At least let her build Legates.

Since the Legates are tied to the national religion I'd rather give her a spawn boost (or just remove the penalty).

(OTOH, Legates can be fun. OTOOH, its nice to have the mechanics for each leader be so different.)

Being forced down the arcane line (without being arcane as well) and the drama line and the priest line... Seems like a huge penalty.

I like Arcane Lore... but that's been suggested before - maybe it's time to do it. Somewhere in the religious line?

Anybody else?

Korinna can adopt a religion, which makes a huge difference. Also, the Risen Emperor is a ridiculously powerful hero.

Too ridiculously powerful? Early-version Chalid or late Chalid?

Seriously though - I almost never play as Korrina and I'm not sure I've ever built the Emperor in a real game.

Religions give you access to their heroes, their related techs (Arete, Demonic Pact, et al) and make your citizens happy which is the real popcap for Scions.

How much do you see even happiness as a limit outside your capital?

One idea I've been kicking around is giving them the Extravagant Trait (from Saints and Sinners): Need 2 of any luxury resource for a +1. I probably would have tried it awhile ago if I could do it myself.

I can't decide whether Korninna the Red is really strong or not, myself.

I've been getting her lately and she does indeed seem *quite* strong. It's been too long since I've played another civ (I've only had about 3 Scion games since 044) - I don't remember just how tough heroes are supposed to be.

I'll have to look at her again - I think it might be that while she's otherwise decently balanced for the tech required her pre-Red Lady xps make her too powerful.

I think in my current game I just upgraded her well, and the fact that she got a Mana Flare mutation giving her Strong/Blitz/Poison Resistant/Cannibalize probably had a lot to do with it.

Well, yeah.

On the subject of heroes, does anyone ever actually create the Dark Council? The benefits I saw from it didn't outweigh having the Artful Governor, the Diplomat-Guy of Pop-Stealing, and the Ultimate Scoutguy running around.

Just making sure: You're aware they they aren't "used up" making the Dark Council?

And lastly - When my Korinna got mutated, she was still shackled, and somehow she ended up with two copies of enraged, not one, enabling her to run around and beat the everloving crap out of a barbarian skeleton sitting on a barrows outside my town.

Which patch, and did you have Knowledge of the Ether?

Oh yeah - I've resolved the Shrine of the Champion situation by banning the Scions from building it. Ever. It's simple.
And: "A dead hero that's not, like, coming back? How is that worthy of reverence? Even in death I serve the Emperor."

 

[odalrick]

Religions give you access to their heroes, their related techs (Arete, Demonic Pact, et al) and make your citizens happy which is the real popcap for Scions.

How the heck do you make happy cap be limiting for the scions?

For me the only thing that limits my cities is population. For a brief moment I might case a little about health, when a city is next to a lot of flood plains or jungle, but well or a health resource finally connected eliminates that. Then the Necropolis eliminates that.

Happy never matters, especially since I aggressively go after luxuries to get population.

And, there are some nice things about religions. But population is power.

 

[Methuselah]

There was no provision for Scions previously simply because I'd never had a AC 100 game with the Scions and assumed the Infernal exception looked for the Infernal civ, not the trait.

Fair enough, it is an oddity , *but* shouldn't one of you guys have looked over the code before releasing and realised?

Or shouldn't it have come up in testing at least? I understand that you ran games on autoplay, did you not run any with the intention making the AC go to 100 to check it worked correctly? Although the autoplay feature is nice, it should/can not replace manual testing.

 

[odalrick]

Since the Legates are tied to the national religion I'd rather give her a spawn boost (or just remove the penalty).

(OTOH, Legates can be fun. OTOOH, its nice to have the mechanics for each leader be so different.)

I like Arcane Lore... but that's been suggested before - maybe it's time to do it. Somewhere in the religious line?

Removing the penalty might be good. (As would some guarantees that awakened will spawn, but that's another discussion.)

I feel that the low population, with no player action available to raise it, makes Korinnas early game too weak.

A weak early game is ok, but too weak isn't.

I like the emperor at arcane lore, though.

Just something to take the edge off the early game.

Oh yeah - I've resolved the Shrine of the Champion situation by banning the Scions from building it. Ever. It's simple.
And: "A dead hero that's not, like, coming back? How is that worthy of reverence? Even in death I serve the Emperor."

Well, the heroes come back for other civs even if they have been interred in the Shrine of the Champion. And you get to keep the shrine as well.

 

[odalrick]

Although the autoplay feature is nice, it should/can not replace manual testing.

What do you think you are doing, when you play?

 

[Methuselah]

What do you think you are doing, when you play?

Okay, I'll re-phrase.

Major bugs such as the one with the Svartalfar settler should have been picked up by the team *before* someone had to report it. Same applies to the missing text keys, it should take no more than 10/15 minutes to go through the pedia and check for missing entries.