Scions documentation

[MaxAstro]

A "1" moved from 1 line to another. Anybody else want the S.M. boosted? I liked giving the Scions a cut in happiness, but I'm fine with moving the happiness to global - and tossing in a trade route. (I need to boost the trade route modifiers in general.)

The other option would be to return it's previous function of happy for livestock resources to it. That way it would be a fairly hefty happy booster for one city, but only one city.

The potential downside of that is that it then heavily encourages you to put your capital by the riverside, so maybe a global happy would be better.

 

[Iceciro]

Either works. I'd also be happy with the Spirit Mill being an improvement for each city... it'd serve the same purpose, but only for riverside cities... The commerce bit might be too much then.

It'd be nice to have some reason not to trade away all my food resources to allies, though. As it is they just give me extra happy through trade.

 

[jacktannery]

Ok More Scion questions.

Firstly, at some point my Awaken-percentage just disapeared, and refused to return. This would have been unfortunate, but even worse no more awaken awoke, so I had to abandon the game. Did I do something wrong, or could it be a bug? (I have a save).

Secondly, Alcaris (sp?) the hero wizard went mad (again) and I killed him; luckily he was reborn, but in the Sheam capital instead of the Scion one. This has to be a bug. (I have a save).

Thirdly, are there any negative aspect to unhealthiness for the Scions?

 

[kenken244]

Awakened stop spawning at a certain population threshhold. you can make up for that by building cathederals of rebirth and using those to build reborn/True pilgrims.

The mage hero is supposted to occasionally be reborn in other civs. You need to go hunt him down and kill him for a chance for him to return to you. The Emperor's dagger UU has a spell that ensures he returns to you and makes him Hidden Nationality

Unhealthiness will reduce the Production produced by the city for each one, and at over 4 you get 2 unhappy and -2 culture

 

[Valkrionn]

Ok More Scion questions.

Firstly, at some point my Awaken-percentage just disapeared, and refused to return. This would have been unfortunate, but even worse no more awaken awoke, so I had to abandon the game. Did I do something wrong, or could it be a bug? (I have a save).

Secondly, Alcaris (sp?) the hero wizard went mad (again) and I killed him; luckily he was reborn, but in the Sheam capital instead of the Scion one. This has to be a bug. (I have a save).

Thirdly, are there any negative aspect to unhealthiness for the Scions?

There is a limit to the number of spawned Awakened, and I would assume you hit that limit. Past that point, any population must be either built or taken through combat.

Alcinus is mad, and while killing him settles his mind again, it does not ALWAYS restore him to the Scions. There is a unique assassin which is able to attack him whether at war or not, and will always return him to your civ.

Unhealthiness can cause unhappiness if you have too much. I believe it starts at 3 unhealth past the cap.

Edit: Damn, beat to it.

 

[jacktannery]

Thank you both - great info.

 

[Tarquelne]

Ok, time for the Shrine of the Champion "fug" to go. I don't remember it activating for Alcinus, but it is now.

 

[Tarquelne]

Really a "balance" issue, but Scions specific:

I find it odd to have desert hills produce 1 less hammer for the Scions. The desert shouldn't be that much of a bother to them. What do you guys think of having the 1 hammer penalty lifted? Maybe just for desert mines?

I was also thinking about slowing down their cottage transformation rate.

 

[odalrick]

You know, I think Civ IV is the first version of civ that hasn't had deserts produce one shield/hammer. I can't think of any reason not to simply increase desert yield to 1 . Malakim would get a little benefit from desert, for everyone else working deserts is just like assigning a citizen specialist.

Early mid-game all worked desert becomes transformed to plains anyway. In theory.


Specifically for scions though, it bothers me that grassland is basically the same worthless wasteland that tundra, snow or currently desert is. Why not make all terrain types equivalent to plains for scions?

 

[Tarquelne]

Specifically for scions though, it bothers me that grassland is basically the same worthless wasteland that tundra, snow or currently desert is. Why not make all terrain types equivalent to plains for scions?

That'd be very nice for the Scions. Maybe too nice?

Ideally we'd change things so that plains hills aren't GREAT for Scions, at the same time making desert/tundra not mysteriously poor.

A general hammers boost would seem to make sense, as would slowing down Cottage growth. Might be tricky to balance. Could be too hard a shove toward warmongering, or just economically crippling.

I could see Scions favoring the less hospitible terrain types, though. Maybe make desert/tundra like plains, and plains/grassland like grassland?

*grumble* I'll I really want is 1 more hammer per desert.

Early mid-game all worked desert becomes transformed to plains anyway. In theory.

Yep. Come to think of it, I see novelty value as a good reason to give Scions the hammer boost. Picking up Elementalism and a Spring Adept certainly has costs associated with it, but when I've got significant desert territory it's a not much of a decision. Especially when not playing Scions. Give Scions the extra hammer earlier and they can skip the Spring routine.

 

[Vehem]

I could see Scions favoring the less hospitible terrain types, though. Maybe make desert/tundra like plains, and plains/grassland like grassland?

*grumble* I'll I really want is 1 more hammer per desert.



Yep. Come to think of it, I see novelty value as a good reason to give Scions the hammer boost. Picking up Elementalism and a Spring Adept certainly has costs associated with it, but when I've got significant desert territory it's a not much of a decision. Especially when not playing Scions. Give Scions the extra hammer earlier and they can skip the Spring routine.

Not sure that it's needed - the Scions are already fairly flexible in where they can settle (not having the food requirement that almost all other civs have), so it's largely upto the player to find places that can be worked profitably. They can put workshops on every "useless" grassland tile if they want hammers, can already build in deserts more successfully than most civs etc... I don't think the base terrain needs to (or thematically would) favour them anymore than it would any other civilization.

 

[odalrick]

The novelty could be the not caring at all about the base terrain. Most civs like grassland, Illians like snow, some civs have less intimate relationship with terrains, but they still favour them. Scions just don't care, snow, sand, tiny green lifeforms... it's all the same.

It wouldn't be any more of a push towards war than starting in a plains area right now.

Something else has been bothering me slightly: Elder Councils. Exactly who is it that isn't an elder in the early game? Sort of the opposite problem of Calabim.

You could replace Elder Council with, for instance, Ancient Residents. Have it give -20% military production and maybe some advantage. Scion elders are more elder than anyone else's, and with a reminder of the vast lifespans possible with the gift people are less likely to sign up for military service.

That should remove any early push to war that increased production gives. With the low population I always spam Elder Councils, Markets and any other buildings that grants increased commerce. Maybe you wouldn't build it in the military production city, but that city is likely to benefit the least from all-terrain scions anyway.

Or is it possible to attach a global -20% military production to the scion palace? Long "lived" inhabitants are reluctant to risk their existence in the military, and I don't think scions would hurt much from having fewer units.


edit:

Vehem is right in that there is no need for a desert boost for scions. It would mostly be a flavour issue; scion lands remain in their pristine condition, unlike every other civ that either terraforms everything to plains and grassland or avoids the place altogether.

 

[jacktannery]

I have played the Scions for the first time with FF-50 and my thoughts so far:

I think they are excellent and great fun, but I have some comments (bear in mind that I play Epic Speed, Small map, and tend to win before I get any Tier 4 units).

-I worked out (finally) that I had to get sun mana and scorch all tiles to plains to get the best use out of the cities. This is FAR from obvious considering that I had been avoiding sun for roleplaying reasons.

-In my case, it took far too long to have the option to create haunted lands, so I won the game with a single haunted tile. Seems like a shame considering the amount of things you can do with them. If there is no method other than the Black Kyli-creepers method to get these in the early game, perhaps another should be thought up.

-Population cap for Awakening to wake. Irritating. I spent so much time getting all the close patrician artefacts and luxuries, but by the time they were all hooked up I had reached my (small world because of my computer) Pop Max. And that was it. Could the chance not be reduced by a factor of 10 rather than completely removed? – It was so sad when the Awaken refused to come out (In my case, both times I played, something like a 10 capital city, two other 3 cities and three 1 cities). Related to this point is…

-I only realised on the very last turn that if I razed a city (and does it even raise the Armageddon Count?) I get free reborn – lots of them. Perhaps this should be mentioned at the top of the thread because if I had known this I would have had a completely different strategy and would have spent less time on patrician artefacts (unfortunately a complete waste of time) and more time razing.

Hope the comments are helpful. I’m sure I got everything wrong with the Scions, but I still love them.

 

[hbar]

One comment about the desert production question - deserts seem like they would be much harder to mine, whether the workers are alive or not. They don't need food, but I imagine the Scion workers wouldn't like sand in their britches any more than we do.

 

[odalrick]

-I worked out (finally) that I had to get sun mana and scorch all tiles to plains to get the best use out of the cities. This is FAR from obvious considering that I had been avoiding sun for roleplaying reasons.

I didn't even know sun can scorch to plain. I thought it was plains to desert only.

-I only realised on the very last turn that if I razed a city (and does it even raise the Armageddon Count?) I get free reborn – lots of them.

There is a tech requirement for reborn from razing, so early game resources and buildings are the way to go.

It is all explained in the civopedia under Fall from Heaven concepts, but the first time you play them it may not be that easy to find. Maybe the dawn of man text should point in that direction for the scions.

 

[Tarquelne]

The novelty could be the not caring at all about the base terrain. ... Scions just don't care, snow, sand, tiny green lifeforms... it's all the same.

Yep. And I liked the point about not terraforming.

Vehem is right in that there is no need for a desert boost for scions. It would mostly be a flavour issue;

Definitely.

You could replace Elder Council with, for instance, Ancient Residents.

Good idea.

Have it give -20% military production and maybe some advantage.

I like the idea that it'd be something you wouldn't really want in every city.

Or is it possible to attach a global -20% military production to the scion palace?

I'm not sure. If so it's worth thinking about. They already tend toward fewer/better units anyway.

-I worked out (finally) that I had to get sun mana and scorch all tiles to plains to get the best use out of the cities. This is FAR from obvious considering that I had been avoiding sun for roleplaying reasons.

Heh. Just the sort of thing we're talking about. It is esp. unfortunate that it's *Sun* mana that's so handy. Sun and Water - two things the undead traditionally often avoid rather than seek.

-In my case, it took far too long to have the option to create haunted lands,

Yeah - I often don't see them much either. . As far as I'm concerned it'd be worth cutting their bonus in say, half, but allowing them in quite a bit earlier.

An easy change would be removal of Necromancy as a requirement from the Ghostwalker spell, along with a reducing on the time the spell takes. But I'm not sure if that'd translate into getting HL significantly earlier.

-Population cap for Awakening to wake. Irritating. I spent so much time getting all the close patrician artefacts and luxuries, but by the time they were all hooked up I had reached my (small world because of my computer) Pop Max. And that was it. Could the chance not be reduced by a factor of 10 rather than completely removed?

The need to shift gears is very much by design. OTOH a greatly reduced rate wouldn't really hurt.

-I only realised on the very last turn that if I razed a city (and does it even raise the Armageddon Count?) I get free reborn – lots of them. Perhaps this should be mentioned at the top of the thread

It's in the "Gaining Population" section under "Reborn". I'll revise the section, though, to make it easier to catch.

Hope the comments are helpful. I’m sure I got everything wrong with the Scions, but I still love them.

Thanks. There's certainly something of a learning curve but it sounds like you've figured out most of it already.

 

[Tarquelne]

They don't need food, but I imagine the Scion workers wouldn't like sand in their britches any more than we do.

Good point. They're supposed to love their comforts.

 

[Valkrionn]

I didn't even know sun can scorch to plain. I thought it was plains to desert only.

Unless you edit the CvSpellInterface.py, you can not scorch grassland to plains. Relatively easy change, however.

 

[Tarquelne]

Unless you edit the CvSpellInterface.py, you can not scorch grassland to plains. Relatively easy change, however.

FF allows it. And then Plains to Desert - just tried it to make sure.

And looked at the Spellinterface - almost missed it, but there is an "or" allowing Marsh or Grass to go to Plains.

 

[Valkrionn]

FF allows it. And then Plains to Desert - just tried it to make sure.

And looked at the Spellinterface - almost missed it, but there is an "or" allowing Marsh or Grass to go to Plains.

Ah, you're right.... I completely missed that lol. Guess I no longer need my own version of the spell allowing Lightbringers to do just that...