Scions of Patria?

tesb · Apr 22, 2010

they also start with agriculture which seems rather odd, maybe switch this for ancient chants, since you the first thing you want to do is getting godking.

Tarquelne · Apr 22, 2010

tesb said:
shouldn't that be switched to death mana?

Not especially. In the backstory the Scions are as much about twisting the natural order as about death.

tesb said:
The scions just don't scale very well with the map size or to be more precise with the settable land.

There's a land-area modifier built into the spawning function. And Stephi further developed they way spawning winds down... So changing how they scale shouldn't be hard if that's what's needed.

Well, except for figuring out what numbers to use.

Sephi · Apr 23, 2010

Tarquelne said:
Some notes and a question:

I just struck me that since the python and XML are still present the Horned Dread's situation may be the same as the Breach's was. If I can get it fixed up would you want the HD in Wild Mana, Stephi?

If you want to fix them, I will merge/add the needed code.

I honestly have no idea what Horned Dread's are supposed to do.

Tarquelne · Apr 23, 2010

Sephi said:
I honestly have no idea what Horned Dread's are supposed to do.

Um diddle diddle diddle um diddle ay
Um diddle diddle diddle um diddle ay
Because I was afraid to speak
When I was just a lad
My father gave me nose a tweak
And told me I was bad
But then one day I learned a word
That saved me aching nose
The biggest word I ever heard
And this is how it goes:

Um diddle diddle diddle um diddle ay
Um diddle diddle diddle um diddle ay
Hornedreadsaresuperfantasticallyferocious!
All, even the sound of them
Is something quite Haunt-ocious
If you scream it loud enough
You'll always sound atrocious
Hornedreadsaresuperfantasticallyferocious!

Um diddle diddle diddle um diddle ay
Um diddle diddle diddle um diddle ay
So when the orc has got your young
There's no need for dismay
Just summon up this word
And then you've got a lot to say
But better use it carefully
Or it may end in strife
One night I said it to me girl
And me girl she took my life!

Um diddle diddle diddle um diddle ay
Um diddle diddle diddle um diddle ay
Hornedreadsaresuperfantasticallyferocious!
All, even the sound of them
Is something quite Haunt-ocious
If you scream it loud enough
You'll always sound atrocious
Hornedreadsaresuperfantasticallyferocious!

***

I realize now that's not as self-explanatory as I'd originally thought.
I'll just see if I can get the unit working.

tesb · Apr 23, 2010

that is the most weird unit description ever

in my current game as the scions i found out you can only build three cathedrals of rebirth, so you can only have 4 cities maximum producing reborn/awakened (3 cathedrals + 1 palace).

however if you run a priest economy* there is nothing stopping you and by priest economy i mean this:

Spoiler :

i have 4 cities akin to this one, all pumping out citizens, so scions are really powerful if you set them up the correct way. (i am not finished building the final version of the altar of luonnotar with it i would have 50 more hammers and gold.)

a reborn usually takes 2 turns to build sometimes one with enough overflow. one side effect is that when 3 reborn are finished i have to add them to a city first before i can continue pumping them out, because they are national units and have a limit, which is kind of silly because it only raises unnecessary micromanagement.

it is still hard however to keep all my cities growing (and i only have 14).
i don't know: on the one hand i get an awesome economy, production, research, units and don't have to rely on buildings outside my cities except for connecting recourses, so there is even nothing to pillage for my opponent, yet i wish i could growth my cities faster (of course the scions should be nerfed somehow in return)

maybe i am just the wrong player for their play style. it is really hard to make balance suggestion but when i look on my score and see that i have every single wonder and no problems in waging war i say the scions are one of more easier races to play, especially on crowded maps. in this current game i set up a large map, but with only 7 ais and i notice that the other civs were always behind me, but catching up more rapidly and the elves are going to surpass me soon and there is still more then enough room to expand.

i put the save game in the attachment so you can build your own conclusions.

*altar of lounnotar + cathedral + theocracy (this economy does not work for evil civs)

Tarquelne · Apr 24, 2010

I can't load the save - 8.1? I'm still on a 8.04 game.
In the meantime, here's what I was wondering:

How much of a factor has conquest been for the Scions that game? If "not much", could it have easily been more?

Difficulty level?
Map size?
What leader? (Most of the balance work has been done assuming Agnostic. Religions have been problematical for the Scions. (Esp. if WM makes the Scion "religious" units available to non-Agnostic leaders... I haven't checked if it does. Err... OTOH, a choice of two religious units or buildings doesn't necessarily mean significantly more power.)

tesb · Apr 24, 2010

this save game if for 8.1, the map size is large erebus continent with city ruins and only 7 civilizations.As leader i have chosen corrina, because she is not agnostic, but it would not have mattered anyway the first priests i get is due to the early wonder from calender tech (forgot the name) (this way i can set up a priest economy even with grigori which is kind of stupid, but powerful). the important thing with a priest economy is to have a non evil leader to build the altar of lounnotar. (imho agnostic civs should not have access to theocracy)

conquest especially in the early game is very important and gives the scions a huge boost, it is also very easy because of their strength in the early game.

reasons on why they are that strong:
-population growth is higher then other civilizations
-don't need to focus on food recourses giving them much more production (i.e settle in the mountains)
-settlers/workers don't slow you down so much, when build.

in the game above i quickly eliminated the balseraphs which gave me two 5 pop cities early in the game. they were no problem to overrun even while they had noja as their early game hero.

i don't know on what difficulty level i started but i used to play increasing difficulty, so it probably was not that high, but unless you start with deity you should be able to overrun one civ very early.

conquest in general is so much more important for the scions, since every city you conquer saves you the build time of several reborn/awakened, which in turn means more hammers to pump out military units or wonders.

my suggestion to make them more balanced in early and late game:
-reborn (build by the cathedral of rebirth) stay the same
-awakened (spawned/ build by palace): change so that every awakened increase the city population of all cities you have by 1. (unless a city is at happiness cap)

i would also change it so that reborn can also be build by the palace and awakened do only spawn.

with this changes you can play a more economic build instead of early aggression and you would be forced to build/research the spawn rate increasing buildings. it would also mitigate the fact that scions have a more linear city growth while with other civs it is exponential.

Tarquelne · Apr 24, 2010

tesb said:
with this changes you can play a more economic build instead of early aggression and you would be forced to build/research the spawn rate increasing buildings.

How about reducing the population of captured cities? That was an balance measure put in early in FF to do what you describe. It worked quite well, IMO. Without that I think aggression is still going to be overly rewarded.

In my current game Korrina - occasionally by herself, now that I've got the Shrine of S. - is out capturing rather high-pop cities. Conquest has been my greatest source of growth by far.

it would also mitigate the fact that scions have a more linear city growth while with other civs it is exponential.

Adding 1 to every city is an interesting suggestion vis a vis mid/late game growth. Maybe at a certain tech? Or use a repeatable ritual? (I still think that's a neat idea. Especially if there's some in-game goal to fulfill for each use.)

tesb · Apr 24, 2010

the problem with such a ritual is that it would make the reborn rather pointless. maybe reborn should then be swapped with the ritual or just have the reborn have the effect of that ritual?
the ritual and reborn have to play different roles to make both viable, since reborn are also rather mid to late game units.

i like the idea of cities loosing their population when captured, warmongering as of now is too much rewarding compared to an economic/ peaceful play style, especially when you go against high population civilizations like the elves. i would however let the city population stay if you play with the usurper trait (xivian) since he is evil can't run a priest economy and the captured cities produce units/buildings of their former civilization. it would also make you want to play aggressive with this evil leader.

i just want to provide feedback and ideas, take what ever you like.

Tarquelne · Apr 24, 2010

tesb said:
warmongering as of now is too much rewarding compared to an economic/ peaceful play style, especially when you go against high population civilizations like the elves

Only one full game, but I'm again (and for real this time) endorsing the idea of reducing city pop. on capture. Or, at least, I'll put the code in my game here and see how it goes.

. i would however let the city population stay if you play with the usurper trait (xivian) since he is evil can't run a priest economy and the captured cities produce units/buildings of their former civilization. it would also make you want to play aggressive with this evil leader.

Or perhaps have him benefit more from razing a city? In FF Scions could get Reborn from razing cities once they had Sorcery and Priesthood.

Hmm... I'll put that back in too and try it out.

If anyone else wants to try it, it goes in CvEventManger's "onCityRazed."

Spoiler :

Tarquelne · Apr 24, 2010

Is there a thread for player-made modules?

Here's one adding a couple of necromancer spells: Balefire and Hand of the Reaper.
Each is only available while a unit possesses the "Necromancy" promotion.

Duplicates of the FF spells, now with 'pedia text for the 2 spells and 1 promo.

Ranson awoke to see a stunningly gorgeous woman tightening a bandage on his leg. There was a dull ache from is thigh, but he felt fine otherwise. The gnawing hole in his leg, in his spirit, had lingered for weeks. Both seemed gone.

The beauty noticed he was awake. "The worst is over," the she reassured him.

"What happened? The last thing I remember is the headless one's charge. We were hurt. We'd all been sick for weeks. We couldn't hold... I'm surprised to be alive to tell the truth. Let alone healthy."

"Well of course you're healthy," the woman smiled. "But not, however, alive."

Tested in 8.11.
Just put the ScionSpell folder in the "NormalModules" folder.
(Called "ScionSpell", but every civ has access to each.)

I'll probably do at least one more. I really liked the button graphic for "Weird Wrack."

EDIT: Re-uploaded with a WM-version of Weird Wrack. I couldn't think any others, so why wait?

[to_xp]Gekko · Apr 24, 2010

well dancing to the haunted dread tune definitely made my day. thanx for the fun :lol:

tesb · Apr 24, 2010

Is there a thread for player-made modules?

there is not, but luckily sephi has a tendency to merge things. you can always create a new thread and work with sephi on the content, at least that is what i do.

Sephi · Apr 25, 2010

Tarquelne said:
Only one full game, but I'm again (and for real this time) endorsing the idea of reducing city pop. on capture. Or, at least, I'll put the code in my game here and see how it goes.

sounds good to me. I will try to pick up the other scion changes as well.

I am currently implementing Epic Adventures, they are kind of like Civ-specific Victory conditions. Any idea what goals would lore/gameplay wise fit the Scions?

Tarquelne · Apr 25, 2010

Sephi said:
I am currently implementing Epic Adventures, they are kind of like Civ-specific Victory conditions. Any idea what goals would lore/gameplay wise fit the Scions?

Something to do with diplomacy or culture is the first thing that comes to mind. I'll think about it. (It'd help to read some examples.)

Something like Civ-specific VCs sounds like a lot of fun!

A balance idea:
Give Korinna the Red "Masterwork weapons" rather than Iron Weapons when created. A nice boost - and eventually compatible with Iron Weapons (I assume) - which would make her more powerful... eventually.

But it'd tone down the one-woman-civ-destroyer thing she's got going currently. (At least, that's been my experience.)

That'd be a big drop to her current power, but if something else is needed to help her start out then Commando, or March, or something like that - even both - would probably be more interesting but still less raw-power than Iron Weapons.

Also: The pop-reduction-on-capture code seems to be working fine. And not too punitive... but we'll see.

EDIT: Masterwork Weaponry isn't that big a change if Copper's available. (I forgot about Bronze.) Replacing Iron with Commando and March, perhaps. I'll try that next game rather than Masterwork.

Seeing all that gear... makes me want to do a equipment module full of goodies from out of the Haunted Lands.

Also, re: Epic Adventures. If individual units are involved (and maybe if not) perhaps something for the Scions involving Melante.

Tarquelne · Apr 26, 2010

Creeper proposal: Use the already existing doScionsTurn code, adding a line or few to rarely spawn a WM Creeper.

I say "WM Creeper" because I think it'd be a good idea to take a different tack: Few, relatively powerful Creepers rather than many, weak Creepers. (K selection vs. r selection, basically.)

Perhaps: Invisible, 2 move, woodsman, a good strength, defense only, can enter rival territory and 2 abilities, each of which destroys the creeper.

1) Destroy food/health improvements in 1 (2?) radius.
2) Plant a Haunted Land 0 (1?) radius in rival territory. Maybe without war-declaration if 0.

Maybe an ability to give a whole bunch of xps to a Ghostwalker?

I guess this could be done as a module. Let Creepers be built, but give a good discount for Nature mana... or something to reflect the HL/Creeper connection.

or a Ghostwalker spell, that destroys the GW and generates some creepers? Maybe a minlevel of 4 or more.

(I was thinking about Creepers because of Pelemoc: Succor spell is harder to use.)

Tarquelne · Apr 27, 2010

I've got the Horned Dread working. More had been removed than I'd thought - the unit entry is just a marker for the 'pedia.

First of all: A simple version could be done with changes only to the Scion spell, promo, and python files. And maybe a not-so-simple version using the existing per-turn unit loop. (Even the same sort of units are checked.)
If you'd prefer that, Stephi, I can whip something up.

Here's how the "full" Horned Dread works: Rather than a Beastmaster-class unit that can be built in cities, with Animal Mastery a level 6+ Ghostwalker can "manifest" the Horned Dread - it picks up the Horned Dread promotion (+1 move, +6 strength, 2 poison damage, Fear, new art).

Only one Ghostwalker at a time can manifest the Horned Dread, though any Ghostwalker may do so. When a new Ghostwalker manifests the Horned Dread the previous one reverts to a normal Ghostwalker.

The spell requires changes to files outside the basic spell xml and python to regulate the manifestations - only 1 at a time, only once a turn. The key is the use of a couple of Feats. xienwolf added two specifically for the Horned Dread to the .dll. I *think* that just requires a total of 4 lines to the Feats sections of two files, CvEnums and CyEnumsInterface*. But I don't know, so below I've used two I think unused: UNIT_SPY and UNITCOMBAT_HELICOPTER.

Changes are needed for 5 files in addition to the two mentioned above: CIV4GameText_Scions.xml, CvFFHPLUS.py, Scions.py, SCIONS_CIV4Promotions.xml, SCIONS_CIV4SpellInfos.xml.

CIV4GameText_Scions.xml:
Change the *second* "TXT_KEY_SPELL_MANIFEST_HORNED_DREAD" to

"TXT_KEY_SPELL_MANIFEST_FIRST_HORNED_DREAD."

(This is an error from FF. Also, the entries dealing the the "Terrify" spell and "Terrified" promotion can be removed. They refer to a HD-only spell.)

CvFFHPLUS.py, to the end of doTurnScions.

Spoiler :

Strictly speaking only the first line is needed. The others "reset" the reqs for the Horned Dread if all Ghostwalker units are destroyed. (ie, the player'd need another Level 6+ unit and 200 gold to allow the manifestation.)

Scions.py The python and reqs for the spells running the HD manifestation. Only "spellManifestHornedDread" has changes beyond switching the Feats.

Spoiler :

Code:

def reqManifestHornedDread(caster):

	iGhostwalker = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_GHOSTWALKER')
	iHornedDreadPromo = gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_HORNED_DREAD')

	pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(caster.getOwner())
	if pPlayer.isFeatAccomplished(FeatTypes.FEAT_UNIT_SPY) == false:
		return False
	if pPlayer.isFeatAccomplished(FeatTypes.FEAT_UNITCOMBAT_HELICOPTER) == false:
		return False

	if caster.isHasPromotion(iHornedDreadPromo):
		return False

	return True

def spellManifestHornedDread(caster):
	pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(caster.getOwner())
	py = PyPlayer(caster.getOwner())
	pPlayer.setFeatAccomplished(FeatTypes.FEAT_UNIT_SPY, false)
	
	iGhostwalker = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_GHOSTWALKER')
	iHornedDreadPromo = gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_HORNED_DREAD')

	for pUnit in py.getUnitList():
		if pUnit.getUnitType() == iGhostwalker:
			if pUnit.isHasPromotion(iHornedDreadPromo):
				pUnit.setHasPromotion(iHornedDreadPromo, false)
#				pUnit.setUnitArtStyleType(gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_ARTSTYLE_GHOSTWALKER'))
				newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_GHOSTWALKER'), pUnit.getX(), pUnit.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI, DirectionTypes.DIRECTION_SOUTH)
				for i in range(gc.getNumPromotionInfos()):
					if gc.getPromotionInfo(i).isEquipment() == False:
						newUnit.setHasPromotion(i, pUnit.isHasPromotion(i))
				newUnit.setDamage(caster.getDamage(), pUnit.getOwner())
				newUnit.setLevel(caster.getLevel())
				newUnit.setExperience(caster.getExperience(), -1)
				pUnit.kill(True, 0)
				
	caster.setHasPromotion(iHornedDreadPromo, true)
	
def reqManifestFirstHornedDread(caster):
	pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(caster.getOwner())

	if pPlayer.isFeatAccomplished(FeatTypes.FEAT_UNITCOMBAT_HELICOPTER) == true:
		return False

	return True

def spellManifestFirstHornedDread(caster):
	pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(caster.getOwner())
	pPlayer.setFeatAccomplished(FeatTypes.FEAT_UNITCOMBAT_HELICOPTER, true)
	
	iGhostwalker = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_GHOSTWALKER')
	iHornedDreadPromo = gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_HORNED_DREAD')

	caster.setHasPromotion(iHornedDreadPromo, true)

SCIONS_CIV4Promotions.xml The Horned Dread promotion.

Spoiler :

SCIONS_CIV4SpellInfos.xml. A spell for the first manifestation, a spell for subsequent manifestations.

Spoiler :

*
CvEnums.h, new Tag Defs (Feat Infos)

Spoiler :

CyEnumInterface.cpp, same section

Spoiler :

tesb · Apr 27, 2010

@your suggestion with the creepers:
i would make the creepers invisible and give them hidden nationality and instead of destroying the creeper he would be settled (can no longer move). So a civilization could always destroy him if they have can see invisible units. (i would also make him very weak once settled)

An other question: since you are familiar with python may i "employ" you in some future projects?

Tarquelne · Apr 27, 2010

Posted for feedback, and so I don't forget, here's how I'm going to change Korrina in my next game:

Protector:
Melee rather than Arcane. (So no Potency, and some Arcane-type xml removed from the unit.)
No +12% "spellecaster xp" from Defender of the Empire
+1 defense.

The Red:
No +25% vs. Warriors.
Bronze Weapons rather than Iron.

tesb said:
(i would also make him very weak once settled)

What would a settled creeper do? (Just act as an observer?)

An other question: since you are familiar with python may i "employ" you in some future projects?

Sure. Though my list of qualifiers and caveats is long, so I'll PM it.

graywarden · Apr 27, 2010

Tarquelne said:
Posted for feedback, and so I don't forget, here's how I'm going to change Korrina in my next game:

Protector:
Melee rather than Arcane. (So no Potency, and some Arcane-type xml removed from the unit.)
No +12% "spellecaster xp" from Defender of the Empire
+1 defense.

The Red:
No +25% vs. Warriors.
Bronze Weapons rather than Iron.

Tarq,

Once youve finalized your changes, let me know what they are, and I will make the tag/strategy/help file changes if you want.

Scions of Patria?

Emperor

Follower of Tytalus

Deity

Follower of Tytalus

Emperor

Follower of Tytalus

Emperor

Follower of Tytalus

Emperor

Follower of Tytalus

Follower of Tytalus

Attachments

QCT junkie

Emperor

Deity

Follower of Tytalus

Follower of Tytalus

Follower of Tytalus

Emperor

Follower of Tytalus

King

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