SE Help

[Cornhog]

I thought I'd relate how my SE Monarch attempt unfolded last night — not that anyone particularly cares but I'm at work right now and I'd rather write you a story than, ya know, work. I stayed up too late trying this specialist crap. I had specialists on the brain. I (seriously) dreamed that I should assign sleeping specialists to each of my pillows to help me catch up in sleep. It didn't work. I'm tired.

I tried again with Japan simply because I'm getting a kick out of the samurai. Drill promotions really turn those things into beasts. It turned out to be a really strange game though. I think I learned a bit about HOW an SE works, but everything was stacked against me. That it worked this well is nice. I might be able to recover.

It is an odd, standard-sized fractal map with five fairly large continents. Charlemagne and I share a large continent. Asoka, the Ethiopians and the Koreans each have their own continent, and I forget who Hammurabi shares one with. Unfortunately, my continent is isolated while the other four are within workboat distance of each other. What this ended up meaning is that those five civs shared technology and expanded rapidly without any real wars because the AI isn't too good with invasions — especially that early.

So, I met Charlemagne. He was my only friend for the longest time but he wouldn't trade with me. I figured I could get his early religion and we'd be good trading friends. Ironically, he didn't found one. I did! So I spread it to him. And he STILL wouldn't trade with me. At one point I had +10 (!) relations with him and he wouldn't trade Hunting for Machinery even. So I had to research EVERYTHING myself. We never made a single tech trade.

Since bulbing and trading wasn't really an option, I settled my GS and even *gasp* used one for a golden age. I needed that boost to get me to samurai. If Charlemagne wouldn't be a true friend, then he must die! And die he did. Like I said, samurai... I am a fan. As I was putting Charlie under the knife, I finally met the other civs and found that, to my surprise, I wasn't that far behind. To be sure, I was behind, but I think I will be able to recover. I probably could have gotten to liberalism first if I hadn't given up on it. I thought it was a lost cause.

It was getting late towards the end and I got a little sloppy. The computer started removing some of my scientist specialists and I didn't notice. Plus, I haven't switched to caste system. I like whipping people too much, but I think it will be a necessity to catch up with everyone else. And I think the Colossus and University of Sankore (the only wonders I managed to get) were VERY helpful. I think in more "normal" conditions, my SE would have thrived completely. I got to printing press all by myself without any trading or bulbing. Of course I skipped a lot of techs along the way. But if I coulda traded....

It wasn't a TRUE SE though. I had a pair of cottaged cites. Unless someone can explain the benefit, I see no reason to practice cottage-abstinence only. A cottage every now and again won't hurt you; just don't be a whore about it.

 

[futurehermit]

I've said a lot recently that a hybrid economy is the way to go if you want to play the map to its best potential. I see no reason to force a grassland-and-snaky-river-covered city into anything other than a commerce city, for example. There are games where I will do just that and completely avoid cottages, but that is when I have a specific gameplan in mind.

 

[Johnpecan]

I decided to move up to Emperor AND try a pure SE (no cottages). To make up for the toughness, I played a philosophical leader. The main thing I want to try differently next time is NOT settle almost every GP I got in the capital. I cringed going through the years and looking at my extremely low beaker count (compared to a CE), but I think bulbing and trading techs would have worked out better.

I won a very close space race, mainly due to
1) pyramids
2) phi leader
3) strong / lucky diplomacy

I personally can't imagine a strong bulb/trade SE economy without a phi leader on Emperor or higher...

I agree with most responses that some sort of hybrid economy is almost always the answer.

 

[Iranon]

I like lightbulbing only to kickstart heavy warmongering. If I plan to get all future techs (not Future Techs!) by extortion, I don't give a dodo dropping about the long-term prospects for my economy as long as I can pay the bills.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I like lightbulbing only to kickstart heavy warmongering. If I plan to get all future techs (not Future Techs!) by extortion, I don't give a dodo dropping about the long-term prospects for my economy as long as I can pay the bills.

If everyone else is dead, you are the tech leader . I like this approach.

 

[BurN]

I see FE/SE as a very spiked economy. Spikes in prod by whipping and draft, spikes in breakers by bulbing. Usually I don't build anything while I tech and I don't tech anything while I build.

Basically its: Whip & rush -> tech & bulb -> whip/draft & war -> tech & bulb -> whip/draft & war -> etc..


(also it's not rare to see "1 unhappiness for 50 turns" in my cities. )

 

[futurehermit]

The thing about a lightbulb-driven SE is that your goal is to be in perma-war pretty much come the renaissance era. So, you lightbulb through liberalism, backfill other necessary techs, hit renaissance military tech (drafting ftw) and then war like crazy. Once you have the largest empire it's not hard to become the tech leader

 

[Rusten]

Running a SE is like riding a rollercoaster, your civilization will have its ups and downs but in the end it's a fun ride.

Just be patient if you fall behind at some point, that's quite natural. Stick to your game plan and keep a long term perspective and you'll do fine. It's still a true SE with a couple of cottages. The no cottage games usually aren't meant to be true SE games, but rather show that cottages aren't the only way to gain a lot of commerce. The most effective way is to capture matured cottages instead of growing them yourself.

 

[JBossch]

As a big fan of SE I feel compelled to tack on a couple comments:

Micro-managing is key. You have to make sure you are maxing out food and hiring the intended specialists. This is important to producing the right GPs. You cannot just go autopilot like you can with piles of cottages.

Capturing cottages is definitely the way to go. They can allow a transition to a late-game CE/hybrid economy. (Though I think the viability of a fairly strict SE in late game is often underrated).

The discussion thus far has surprisingly not really emphasized Caste system. I think the more experienced players are taking it for granted but the OP sounds like he is running two scientists in cities intended to produce most of his science! In a serious SE it is not uncommon to run upwards of 6 or more scientists (given enough food and happiness) in a super science city (often the capital) with representation while slowbuilding stuff like universities. This is not to mention any helper cities working as many specialists as possible. You have to be willing to "ride the roller coaster" like others have pointed out and swap hammers for the food necessary to run scientists (or whatever specialist you need)

City specialization is key. This cannot be emphasized enough for any strategy but with an SE i think it is particularly important.

The only reason I see against hybrid economies is that most civics tend to benefit one more than the other and matching them in a way that is beneficial to a hybrid econ can be tricky. Still, this strat can be effective and some hybridization almost always occurs.

Hope this helps.

 

[Cornhog]

You're right, I more or less ignored Caste System. I almost always do. I need some way to rush buildings/units. Since I'm on either HR or rep, I need slavery, right? Plus, with all this extra food, isn't slavery a good idea?

I pretty much had two scientists everywhere. I couldn't make anymore than that for most of the time.

 

[Catan_Settler]

If you were running Caste System for huge numbers of scientist specialists, I'm willing to bet you'd get over the idea that an SE is only able to keep pace with CE by bulbing your way through the tech tree. On Emperor and below anyways, I find it fairly easy to power my way through the tech tree, using espionage and the occasional trade to snag any techs that I skip over. What I think some people fail to realize is that an SE takes some time to build up momentum, and must pull out the stops in the classical age to pull oneself up to tech parity by hook and by crook. From there though, it really gathers steam as the super science city begins to fill up with more and more settled scientists and spies, to the point that it begins to leave other civs in the dust. Take this example of an SE capital, emperor, circa 1900. I was playing Pericles of Greece and went on to win a space victory just as Lincoln (the only real contender left at this point) finally completed the Apollo Program.

Note that it has some pretty solid production as is (Mining Inc helps here of course) but when it comes time to build wonders, spaceship parts, anything really expensive and time consuming, I'll cut down the number of specialists, and send them to work in the workshops, mines and lumbermills... And if I run out of decent hammer tiles to work, I'll assign a few engineers, or early in the game priests, instead. This type of city is extremely flexible to the changing demands of your empire, although granted you only have really uber city like this per empire-- it gets the national epic and oxford, and a steady stream of settled great people.

Here are a couple pics showing this city's total science and espionage output:

 

[silverbullet]

If it is the first time that you are running a SE, I find spiritual leaders to be the easiest. You need a lot of micromanagement. As BurN said, switch often between tech/bulb and draft/whip/build periods. With spiritual you can switch for free as often as every 5 turns.
The key is high food cities (actually the key to every economy).
With caste system and pacifism you can get great people faster. You could even starve a city to get a great person 2 turns earlier and then switch back to slavery to grow and whip.

Even in SE game it is many times beneficial to cottage a capital for bureaucracy+academy.
Actually I prefer the term food economy, since the economy relies more on food than specialists. In a long part of the game I find myself running specialists just in 1 city and growing/whipping constantly in the rest of the cities. It is important to get enough happiness to grow the cities to at least 7~8, so you can whip expensive building like courthouses. Early courthouses are very important for early expansion, and building them with mines is so inefficient.

You're right, I more or less ignored Caste System. I almost always do. I need some way to rush buildings/units. Since I'm on either HR or rep, I need slavery, right? Plus, with all this extra food, isn't slavery a good idea?

I pretty much had two scientists everywhere. I couldn't make anymore than that for most of the time.

You don't need to run 2 scientist everywhere all the time. Not every city needs to produce science. Most of the time, especially for new cities, it is better to grow faster with all people working farms or food resources, then whip. With all the extra food settlers and workers should be quick too.
Slavery is what I run most of the time in my games, but to use it to the max, don't run those scientists who consume 4 food.
Once you have built everything, you can switch to caste system. As I said, spiritual is best for that, otherwise you need to plan well longer periods of caste vs. slavery.

If you are not spiritual, prioritize the great library. You will be able to run 4 scientists even in slavery in 1 city. With NE you will get very fast great people from that city.

 

[futurehermit]

If you are not spiritual allowing you to swap back and forth between slavery and caste system then you need to have a plan in place. City specialization helps here. Let your production cities do your producing. Your specialist cities don't need buildings really beyond a granary--just lots of food. Caste system also improves workshops in BTS helping out with your production needs.

Early in the game I find I only really need two cities going hard on specialists, usually my capital and an enemy capital. Then around the time that rep and biology come into play the economy starts to lag and it becomes necessary to either transition to a CE or slap it in caste system full time and start running high levels of scientists (8++) in most of your cities (keep some dedicated production cities).

I had a game awhile back with Ramesses where I never built a cottage and went with a full-fledged SE late game with tons of scientists. I was impressed with how well I teched. Sushi (BTS) also helps to be able to run even more scientists.

 

[UncleJJ]

If you are not spiritual allowing you to swap back and forth between slavery and caste system then you need to have a plan in place. City specialization helps here. Let your production cities do your producing. Your specialist cities don't need buildings really beyond a granary--just lots of food.

I really do not agree that specialist cities don't need buildings. On the contrary they do need the buildings that matches the type of specialists they run to make the most of their specialisation. So in the early game, and if not Spritual, I would not switch into Caste System until I had at least whipped in a library and a monastery or two into the cities I am working scientists in, and then once Education had been lightbulbed a university would be a priority. A city running priests or merchants needs a market to make the most of its output.

 

[silverbullet]

I really do not agree that specialist cities don't need buildings. On the contrary they do need the buildings that matches the type of specialists they run to make the most of their specialisation. So in the early game, and if not Spritual, I would not switch into Caste System until I had at least whipped in a library and a monastery or two into the cities I am working scientists in, and then once Education had been lightbulbed a university would be a priority. A city running priests or merchants needs a market to make the most of its output.

I agree. Courthouse is a must in every city, market is a must in every high commerce city, library is a must in every science city. Monasteries are important in high science cities.
The only time I would switch to caste BEFORE the infrastructure is read is when I need a quick recovery from a rush. At that point my economy might still lose money at 100% gold, so I need quick cash. I switch to cast to be able to get out of the mud, tech currency or code of laws, and then switch back.

 

[Catan_Settler]

Yes bear in mind that caste system is not the be all and end all civic, in fact in the game I posted shots of, I was already past the point of being able to use it as I was in emancipation. Early on though, you need to max out those specialists in a time when there are only a handful of buildings to open up a handful of specialist slots... It's in this interim period when you only have 1 or 2 specialist slots per class (library for 2 scientists, courhouse for 1 spy and so on) that caste system really shines. And again, unless playing a spiritual leader I'll usually wait to do any civics swaps until I can go into Representation (assuming pyramids which is really one of the clutch wonders for an SE), Organized Religion AND Caste System all at once. The next swap would be to Beurocracy and Pacifism, to power through the production of mid game wonders that can give you an edge like the Parthenon (the other *must have* wonder like Pyramids), and other less valuable but still handy wonders like Sistine Chapel (for culture strategies, or as a denial tactic against AIs fond of culture like Ghandi or Izzy), University of Sankore, Shwedagon Paya, etc.

 

[silverbullet]

@Catan_Settler: Pyramids are very nice to have, but definitely not a must for a food economy game.
Unconquered Sun demonstrated a deity game with no cottages, no pyramids and no Parthenon if I remember correctly.

 

[futurehermit]

I really do not agree that specialist cities don't need buildings. On the contrary they do need the buildings that matches the type of specialists they run to make the most of their specialisation. So in the early game, and if not Spritual, I would not switch into Caste System until I had at least whipped in a library and a monastery or two into the cities I am working scientists in, and then once Education had been lightbulbed a university would be a priority. A city running priests or merchants needs a market to make the most of its output.

*need* and *want* though are two different things. sure, i would want a library in my science cities, and in most cases I will have them. it is certainly optimal to have them. however, they are not necessary and if you have low production it can be painful in terms of anarchy to be swapping back and forth between slavery and caste system. in these cases at times i opt to slow-build the buildings you mention.

if you have high production in these cities then sure you can churn out the desired buildings, but i wouldn't necessarily sacrifice my beaker output for the buildings...it just depends.

what i would probably do is create the desired buildings at the end of a military/production phase before swapping back into caste system.

all i was trying to say is that i wouldn't sacrifice caste system just to get a library in place because 25% of two scientists isn't as desirable as having 8 scientists. that was really the only point i was trying to make.

 

[Cornhog]

I don't really understand these "phases." Obviously if you're spiritual you can swap back and forth at will — whip some things, switch to Caste, wait for angry faces to go away, swap back and repeat. But if you're not, how often do you switch phases? I thought part of an SE is being at near constant war so is there really a peaceful building period?

And does a SE favor a small, higher quality empire or a large, sprawling one? I seldom raze cities; I tend to go for State Property, and I eschew colonies and vassals as best I can. Or does size not matter?

 

[Iranon]

When not Spiritual, I tend to not use Caste System very much. Early in the history of a city, slavery is highly efficient for getting the infrastructure up. Later, I usually have enough useful slots thanks to the whipping early on.

Spiritual allows many tricks that are cool at first, but quickly bog down in repetitive micromanagement.