Sengir01 - Spying with a vengeance

Looks pretty good! :goodjob: Too bad about the troops lost, but they'll be quickly replaced. Looks like we're slowly but certainly steamrolling the planet, like an oil stain spreading and spreading.

Is Wang still vassal of Alex? From the scorelist in one of your screenshots it looks like he isn't, but maybe that is how you configure BUG... Anyway, if he's a free state again, he might make a nice and juicy next target.

I agree with IW in Berlin, it seems to have quite unmatchable production output.
 
I'm going to need a skip guys. I still need to play the PtP02 set and I've got some job interviews this week I have to prepare for.

About IW in Berlin, that is going to pollute the spy pool AFAIK, though I'm not sure whether we care about that at this point.

Also, nice warring Meiz.
 
Good luck with your interviews, Sengir! Or are you the interviewer? :)

Berlin is not the main source for GP anymore, so I don't think it matters if that pool is polluted. Less so if we have the chance to pop a GE, which would be useful somehow anyway. Maybe for mining inc if the game lasts that long.

Norvin is up.
 
Is Wang still vassal of Alex? From the scorelist in one of your screenshots it looks like he isn't, but maybe that is how you configure BUG... Anyway, if he's a free state again, he might make a nice and juicy next target.

I can't remember seeing a message that he would have freed himself. And I wouldn't make any assumptions from my scorelists as I'm not using BUG. It's a nice excuse for MM blunders ;)
 
Very nice work Meiz!
I honestly didn't expect us to get to Babylon this set...much less to Dur-jdkjsak.
Well played!

Nice result us popping copper like that.
No arguments from me about placing the IW in Berlin.
If the game were more likely to run longer I would argue for the new IW town but we should get more use out of it in Berlin in our current situation.

Uses for the upcoming prophe...err great person.
Prophet...obvious.
Spy...SY in Munich.
Engineer...speed up the Taj?
Artist...golden age with Kepler.

I assume we are just finishing off Hammy since he has nothing of value to offer us.
Just be careful with this final two cities...they both appear to be built on hills.
Well on second thought.

We may want to consider this...
Stop the war against Hammy...he is crippled and big deal if someone else vassals him.
Have an extended rebuilding period where we reassemble our army.
I like all the knights I see running around but we need more siege to accompany them.
Then we can take out the crazy one, Monty.
There is benefit to us by leaving him next door to Alex so those two can whack heads some more down the road.

The other option is to attack Gandhi.
His culture is going to annoy our eastern cities and will only get worse.
I think we could take Calcutta, Pataliputra, and whatever city is hiding in the fog near Dusseldorf pretty easily. Take peace, regroup and strike again.
We would need to consider the distinct possibility that Gandhi will bribe someone...possibly Monty into joining the war against us.
Not a problem...we would just need to prepare for it.

My vote is to take a longer break to build up a hammer.
Then I think we can go after Gandhi.
We can have a defensive stack ready to combat any funny business from Monty.
 
Hello again team. Back from vacation (exhausted). Glad to see things are going well. It certainly has made me far more aware of the espionage slider! With Sengir needing a skip, am I up?
 
I like the sound of attacking Gandhi, as he's not much of a warmonger and his cultural pressure is really annoying. Monty is backwards as usual, so he'll be having outdated troops for a long while.

And yeah, Norvin you are up.
 
There are too many cities to list so in order to be concise basically I'd say if its marked Prod then troops and if its marked commerce then castle/market/grocer as needed. Mix in some spies here and there. If we steal Theo do we want to switch to Theocracy (would boost relations with Sal) and Nationhood (+25% :espionage:)? Finish off Hammy and then re-group.
 
Sounds good...I don't know about Nationhood though.
We would have to lose Bureau and I think we are getting far more benefit out of that civic.
I think the increase in EPs would be cancelled out by the decrease we would have to make in our slider. Theo works for me though...especially if we are building alot of units for a push to wipe out Gandhi.

Be careful when finishing off Hammy as both of his final cities are built on hills!

Welcome back Norvin!
 
Sounds like a plan, Norvin. Theocracy would be alright (we're switching from Organized Religion, yes?) Go get 'im!

Maybe I'll try to calculate the results of switching to Nationhood. Or would it just be easier to make the switch "OOC" and see?
 
I hadn't even considered a possible switch to nationhood yet, but it seems fitting.
I don't know about Nationhood though.
We would have to lose Bureau and I think we are getting far more benefit out of that civic.
I think the increase in EPs would be cancelled out by the decrease we would have to make in our slider.
I have no save at hand or any hard numbers to prove this, but I think a switch to nationhood would bring in more EP than staying in bureau.

I mean, the +50% commerce of 1 city can't compete (I think...) with +25% spy points of ALL cities.
(warning, my maths may suck :D) For the sake of running some imaginary numbers: if capital has 100 base commerce and we run at 50% slider, we have 75 gold and 75 spy points with bureau. With nationhood it would be 50 gold and 62.5 spy points. That's like a loss of 37.5 (25+12.5) "commerce". We compensate that if the combined commerce of all other cities is 300. (50% slider supposed, to give 150 spy points, +25% of 150 is 37.5).
So basically, if the combined base commerce of all other cities is 3 times that of the capital, the switch would be break even, if it's more than 3 times we win out. As said, can't look at the save but I *think* that must be the case, given we have more commerce oriented cities and given the empire is expanding ever more. The larger the empire the lesser relative importance bureaucracy has. Of course, multiplier buildings come in to play as well, but that's to difficult for me to take into account. :)

So I think the switch must be worth it. Add to that the ability to draft and 2 happy faces from barracks (and to be fair substract the +50% hammers from capital, but we don't really count on those hammers anyway).

Also, I hate to have anarchy for just 1 civic switch. :) Hope the double switch won't add an extra turn of anarchy though.

Edit: spy specialists in all cities should get the +25% effect as well, making it an even more tasteful option. Heck, this is an espionage game and nationhood just looks like the obligatory civic to take! :lol:
 
Going for Taj may be worth a shot. IIRC we didn't have marble but from the screenshots in Meiz's set it seems it's in Babylon's second ring. If somehow you manage to pop those borders asap I think we have a fair enough chance to try. I guess Berlin is the best option as Hamburg with the HE should pump units. As discussed previously I don't think at this point it matters much anymore if Berlin's GP pool is polluted a bit.
You could also check in all those cities we can see if it's being built somewhere and with what progress. Though it could be built in some city we can't see, of course...
 
Well put nocho.

I never thought that Nationhood would net us fewer EPs...I poorly thought out my initial statement.
I was thinking that removing Bureau makes Berlin not quite as appealing of an IW city.

Given our current state I say we try for the Taj in Berlin.
Then when we get it...because we can sabotage anybody who might finish before us...we can make all the civics changes that we want to without the anarchy penalties.
 
I was thinking that removing Bureau makes Berlin not quite as appealing of an IW city.
With Cologne being our capital that could be hardly an issue anyway. ;):D

Oh, and good point about sabbotaging Taj wherever it's also built, that's nicely in tune with the objectives of this game!
 
nocho said:
With Cologne being our capital that could be hardly an issue anyway.

I don't have any excuse for that one...:smoke: :lol:
 
Although nocho has provided us with some hard imaginary numbers, I think it is my duty to muddy the waters until things become clear (yes). Now, I haven't calculated values for ALL of our cities because I'm a little lazy, but I currently believe that a switch to Nationhood right now will net us less Espionage Points than under Bureaucracy. Here's what I've found.

By my calculations, a switch will result in these changes in Cologne: 35 units of Commerce, down from 53; 121.5 Espionage Points down from 156.6. So an 18-point drop in Commerce, and a 35-point drop in EP. I did, of course, factor in the 25% bonus from Nationhood into this final figure. Will the other towns make up for this? I estimated the new EP values for the four highest cities, other than the capital, and together they would get an increase of 25 EP, much lower than the 35 lost from Cologne, never mind the drop in commerce. We're already losing money at 60% EP. Whether things would even out at lower slider values, I haven't checked.

Based on these preliminary findings, I think that we would need to run a much larger number of Spy specialists to make use of Nationalism, as it would essentially increase EP from a Spy from 4 to 5 points. Of course, our ability to do this at the moment is limited by the fact that we can only currently construct Courthouses, which only provide a single Specialist Slot. However, I believe that future innovations in espionage and information-control will yield facilities that can employ additional spies.

I therefore suggest that we consider a cost-benefit analysis of whether it would be more beneficial to develop our new acquisitions towards hard commerce or the ability to feed more dedicated spies. Unless we come across some new financial windfall that allows us to run the EP slider at 100%, we should assume that for every point of Commerce that a city produces, at least 50% will go to the treasury. A non-riverside Town produces 4 units of Commerce. Two produce 8 and I use two because it would take about 2 farms to feed a Spy Specialist. 8 Commerce becomes roughly 4 EP before modifiers and 1 Spy produces 4 EP. Though if farms could be made, riverside Towns could be grown . . . . so a net of 5 EP from two Towns. Hmm, a dilemma.

It may be that locations that already provide a food surplus, such as from a food resource, may be best developed towards feeding spies, while those with less food may build commerce. This may result in a case-by-case analysis. I will conduct a study of our recently acquired lands to try and gauge the most efficient course, noting that it takes a great deal of time for a Cottage to mature into a Town, while food surpluses could be obtained much more quickly.

In conclusion, the only thing that I can say with certainty is that our net EPs are likely to decrease with a Civic switch, if only because the slider will have to be lowered.

Edit: The duration of my report has allowed Norvin to make a conclusion before me. I will conduct a new, more thorough study of a Civic switch at our current state and post the results.

The Revised Whosit Report

Let's just start with the numbers. As you can plainly see, I was far too hasty in my initial assessment than was Norvin.

Deficit: -71 gpt.
EP (60%): 496 eppt.

Cologne: Commerce: 53 > 35; EP: 156.6 > 121.5. (-18 gpt/-35 eppt)
Frankfurt: 20.25 > 24.3. (+4 eppt)
Essen: 57.15 > 63.5. (+6 eppt)
Dortmund: 11.6 > 14.5 (+3 eppt)
Ligurian: 9.00 > 11.25 (+2 eppt)
Stuttgart: 8.00 > 10 (+2 eppt)
Cuman: 14.00 > 17.5 (+3 eppt)
Uppsala: 12.80 > 16 (+4 eppt)
Nidaros: 16.75 > 20.1 (+3 eppt)
Birka: 5.60 > 7 eppt (+2 eppt)
Jelling: 11.6 > 14.5 (+3 eppt)
Haithabu: 14.00 > 17.5 (+4 eppt)
Bjorgvin: 25.75 > 30.9 (+5 eppt)
Borsippa: 9.20 > 11.5 (+2 eppt)
Sippar: 7.4 > 9.25 (+2 eppt)
Akkad: 14.6 > 18.25 (+4 eppt)
Dusseldorf: 3.6 > 4.5 (+1 eppt)
Babylon: 7.2 > 9 (+2 eppt)
Dur-Kurigalzu: ?
Berlin: 30.75 > 36.9 (+5 eppt)
Hamburg: 12.20 > 15.25 (+3 eppt)
Munich: 48 > 57.6 (+9 eppt)

New Deficit: -89 gpt
Net EP change: +34

Estimates of EP changes are approximate and don't fully calculate decimals, but it should be close enough for our purposes. Note that these values are for 60% EP slider. I would venture to guess that even if we lower the slider so that we are not losing quite as much money, at least not too far, that we will still have a net increase, though how much, I don't feel like calculating again. :p

Note also that a few Groceries are close to being completed, and we can still build more Castles that will increase both income (trade route) and provide a percentage bonus to EP. I suggest building more Castles as time and resources allow, though perhaps only in relatively high-EP cities due to the fact that Castles will eventually become obsolete.

Also, in the next 9 turns, several Grocers/Marketplaces will be constructed, which should negate the -18 loss from switching out of Bureaucracy, but will not otherwise pull us out of the current deficit.

On a completely separate note, we had best whip a lot of culture into our eastern Viking cities to stave off Gandhi's culture until we deal with him in a more permanent fashion. I will try to work on my Food vs. Commerce as Espionage Points thesis in the meantime.
 
Interesting muddy calculations going on here :). Let's throw some more mud in there! In Meiz's last screenshot we make 496 EP at 60% slider. If 156 comes from cologne as whosit says, 340 comes from the other cities. 25% of that is 85 EPs which is of course more than the 18+35=53 commerce points we lose at cologne.
We'll have to lower the slider though to 50%. Still the other cities would roughly make 5/6 of 85, some 71 EP more with nationhood, which still looks good enough to compensate the loss of bureau. I think :D.
Let's not forget the extra happiness and the draft either.

Still, going for nationhood is not an immediate urgency, but I guess within a set or 2 or 3 we should definitely take it.
 
Argh whosit, your post made my head hurt :)

I'd say we aim for Taj and if / when we get the GA, we also make the anarchy free switch to Nationhood, Theocracy and Merchantilism (once we have stole Banking, coming soon). If we fail to build Taj, we can pair our Great Scientist with another GP later for a GA and again, make a free revolt.

What I'm trying to say is that the anarchy outweights the gain of switch, but for free it's a good deal for our empire.
 
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