Sengoku-Deluxe: preview and discussion thread

[Takhisis]

Nice in-game shots! I could do some of the editing, if you want, but tomorrow or Friday.

In my research of this topic I am finding fault with your statement. Koku is a unit of measurement And that "Koku of Rice" was used to place a value on parcels of land. How many Koku of rice the land was able to produce was used to determine the lands value. Warlords would sometimes pay samurai in koku's of rice instead of land grants or salaries and the rice could then be sold or used. Gold and silver were still mined and coins were still used. Some coins were made by Each Diamyo and some were imported from china.

many daimyo paid people in koku, koku was used as a measure for payments (even in Teahouses), taxes, land-values, revenue, internal/external trade, etc. it was a non-official standard unit that everyone used to measure against.
sounds a bit confusing, doesn´t it? I meant that koku is a parameter for comparison, a measuring unit.

 

[Storm Grunt]

@Stormy - I think it would be easier if you do the editing. I'm sure you can do a good job. You might be able to use some of the excess in "Metal Working." Why don't you list all your techs and I'll see if I can do some others for you.

OK I'll take care of the editing. I didn't want to start tinkering with your fine literary work without asking first...

As far as entries for the rest of the techs most of the ones that are in the original scenario that are specific to that scenario (ending in -jutsu) will be re-used and most have inadequate entries or none at all.So if you guys want to work on those for now that would help a lot. I'm still not sure on what new ones I'll add yet. Most of the new techs will be in the first, and the unused last era.

 

[Mithadan]

Take it from me, an utter idiot when it comes to Japanese history: koku is cooler than silver or whatever. Heck, I've played the Shogun board game and read that super-long book called Shogun, and koku seemed to be the thing there. Thus my watertight conclusion: koku is cool. Just like kamikaze and katana. Go with koku. Cool koku.

 

[7ronin]

Sengoku seems to be a little light on distinctively Japanese wonders. Here is a proposal:

#BLDG_Three_Sacred_Treasures
^The Three Sacred Treasures great wonder doubles the $LINK<happiness effect=GCON_Moods> of Shinto Shrines and reduces $LINK<war weariness=GCON_War_Weariness>. You must have the Imperial System civilization advance and five Shinto Shrines in order to build the Three Sacred Treasures.
^
^Amaterasu Omi Kami, the Sun goddess, ordered her grandson Ninigi to rule over Japan. She gave him the Three Sacred Treasures to symbolize his reign.
^
#DESC_BLDG_Three_Sacred_Treasures
^
^
^The Three Sacred Treasures of Japan consist of:
^
^*The [Sacred Jewel] of Yasakani no magatama (now situated in the imperial palace in Tokyo);
^*The [Bronze Mirror] of Yata no kagami (now in the Grand Shrine of Ise); and
^*The [sword Kusanagi] or [Grass Cutter] (which is now in the Atsuta Shrine in the city of Nagoya).
^
^The first two were made to lure Amaterasu out of the Amano-Iwato cave where she had hid plunging the world into darkness. The last was found impaled in the Yamato no Orochi, an eight-headed, eight tailed serpent. Of these three, the mirror is the token of Amaterasu. The three together constitute the Imperial Regalia of Japan and are essential elements of the ceremony of imperial ascendancy. Only the Emperor may see all three Sacred Treasures.
^

Of course we will need to find some kind soul to make this for us. It should be easy as all three treasures are very simple shapes. The jewel is jade and looks like a baseball with a comma like tail and a hole in the center. The mirror is a bronze circle or oval with eight petals around it and the sword is bronze, short and straight in the Chinese style, double bladed and with a simple and small (probably oval) hilt.

 

[7ronin]

Here's another CivP entry:

#GCON_Treasury
Treasury
^
^
^The [treasury] is where your empire's wealth is stored. Your wealth is measured in Koku of rice. The Koku was originally defined as the amount of rice required to feed one person for one year. During the feudal period of Japanese history, each fief had an assessment of its wealth, and the koku was the unit of measurement. The smallest domain was 10,000 koku and the largest (other than the Shogun) was called "a million koku domain". Many samurai received stipends in koku.
^
^Each turn, the net income from each of your cities is combined, costs are deducted, and the remainder is placed into your treasury. On some turns, Koku may have to be drawn out of the treasury to cover costs. Balancing your need to spend with your need to build a substantial store of liquid wealth is an interesting challenge.
^
^{Koku}
^You use Koku from the treasury to pay:
^* $LINK<Maintenance=GCON_Maintenance> costs for city improvements.
^* Support for military units in excess of those allowed by your $LINK<government=GCON_Governments> types.
^* Payments you may be making to rival civilizations as part of a $LINK<diplomatic agreement=GCON_Agreements>.
^* To build $LINK<Embassies=GCON_Embassies> and conduct diplomatic and espionage missions.
^* To $LINK<hurry production=GCON_Hurry_Production> of city build projects.

 

[Takhisis]

As far as entries for the rest of the techs most of the ones that are in the original scenario that are specific to that scenario (ending in -jutsu) will be re-used and most have inadequate entries or none at all.So if you guys want to work on those for now that would help a lot. I'm still not sure on what new ones I'll add yet. Most of the new techs will be in the first, and the unused last era.

I can do one for naginatajutsu

btw why not add the Willow World as part of a special "space victory"? it could be compounded with "western trade" and "bakufu administration" sets of buildings... like the Trade Victory in RFME

 

[Storm Grunt]

@7ronin - I agree that there are not enough Japanese specific great wonders.
I like your Idea for the Three Sacred Treasures wonder. If I can find some suitable graphics to cut,paste,convert I can make it. I'll look into it. Currently I'm working on the Mt. Hiei temple complex great wonder that produces Sohei warrior monks.I have building graphics I just need to make splash graphics and pick a unit to represent the sohei.

You must have the Imperial System civilization advance

The Imperial system is another form of monarchy right?

@Takhsis - a space victory would be a major undertaking that would drag the creation time for this scenario out way too long for me. I haven't modded a space victory yet and it would be too much work.

@All - Okay lets go through this "Koku of rice" issue one more time. I don't think you can say it was the official commerce instrument of japan during this time period of japan. Please read this link to see what I'm basing this on before you comment.

I also don't think that changing the games commerce system to something that was a food but also used as trade will fit the games mechanics(i.e. two food sources on the city screen but one is considered wealth) and will probably confuse the player(who doesn't have extensive Japanese history expertise) This is why I would rather make Rice an important and powerful bonus resource instead.

 

[7ronin]

The Imperial system is another form of monarchy right?

Exactly. Early Japanese monarchs were kings. The establishment of the Imperial System with it's religious aspects turned the early kings into Emperors. You can probably consider that there are three government types: Anarchy, Imperial System, and Shogunate.

Okay lets go through this "Koku of rice" issue one more time.

I'm not going to argue either way. This is your mod and if you feel that Gold as opposed to Koku best suits your vision then that's fine with me. It's a rather minor point in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Mithadan]

Like 7ronin said, it's your mod, you can do what you want to.

All I was saying is that "koku" is cooler to the noob than "gold" is. In other terms, I would say that using koku adds more flavour to the mod than gold does.

@All - Okay lets go through this "Koku of rice" issue one more time. I don't think you can say it was the official commerce instrument of japan during this time period of japan. Please read this link to see what I'm basing this on before you comment.

Interesting link; I didn't notice a single use of the word "gold" or "silver" but I did notice a helluvalot about "koku." Regardless if a damiyo had to sell his koku to merchants for "money," koku was 1) the basis of the economic system, and 2) is far more recognisable as a cool piece of flavour for a Feudal Japanese mod.

 

[Takhisis]

All I was saying is that "koku" is cooler to the noob than "gold" is.

also to lurkers...

- a space victory would be a major undertaking that would drag the creation time for this scenario out way too long for me. I haven't modded a space victory yet and it would be too much work.

I could mod the space victory part... with some help from Luddi VII and Rambuchan.

 

[7ronin]

A "space victory" is certainly doable as evidenced by Rise and Fall of the Mughals which has an interesting one. I'm not sure though that we could come up with one which make sense, would be appropriate, or would fit in the context of this scenario.

 

[7ronin]

Here's another idea. If you're short of techs you could break this into "castle building" and "advanced castle building." Do away with the walled city view and instead substitute the view with the castle for the improvement. I think Ogedei the Mad has some useable Japanese city graphics.

#TECH_Castle_Building
^
^
^The Japanese unlike other East Asian Civilizations did not (with one or two exceptions) build walled cities. They did however excel at the art of castle building, constructing hundreds of fortresses which were just as formidable and militarily successful as those of their European counterparts.
^
#DESC_TECH_Castle_Building
^
^
^The Japanese first began building castles around A.D. 800. These first structures were usually no more than enlarged wooden stockades guarding some strategically important position such as a mountain pass or major road. Because they were often built in mountainous areas they were referred to as [Yamashiro] or mountain castles. Gradually, as various Daimyo consolidated their power, the Yamashiro came to be seen as a necessary element in defending the lord's power base. Accordingly the Yamashiro became larger and more complicated. Towers and moats were added and the castles were often built to take advantage of the natural defensive aspects of the surrounding terrain.
^
^Sometime around 1500, the bases of castle keeps and the lower portions of the walls began to be built of stone. It was also around this time that the Daimyo saw the advantage of constructing a castle in the primary town of their feif and locating their mansion or [yashiki] on the castle grounds.
^
^In Japan an infantry attack or a mining operation against a castle were much more likely to occur than an artillery bombardment. For this reason, approaches from the outer to the inner areas of a castle were designed, by use of numerous gates, guard towers, switchbacks and interlocking fields of fire, to break up the momentum of an attacker and to keep sapper and incendiairy attacks at a distance.
^

 

[Storm Grunt]

@Takhisis- If you can come up with a good Idea for a spaceship victory then go for it....

@7Ronin- Another fine pedia entry! I will use the castle building tech idea to make castle(fortification) worker job available and advanced castle building to provide the barricade worker action. There are no walled city graphics and the large city graphic already has a castle in it. I will probably replace the masonry and construction techs with these.

 

[7ronin]

Another entry; a substitute this time.

#DESC_TECH_Naginatajutsu
^
^The naginata was traditionally used only by Japanese Samurai. It should not be confused with the spear or [yari] which was a common weapon of the Ashigaru (insert link) or foot soldiers. The techniques of Naginatajutsu were probably derived from those of [Bojutsu] (pole or cudgel fighting) around the Seventh Century. During the Twelfth Century cavalry battles had become more important and the naginata was recognized as an extremely effective weapon against mounted warriors.
^
^The naginata was hand crafted for the individual user. The shaft and blade together were typically between eight and ten feet long. The same care was used in making naginata blades as was used in making $LINK<swords=TECH_Sword_Crafting> and it is likely that many naginata blades were recycled sword blades. The naginata had considerable advantages over a sword. For one thing, its reach was longer permitting the naginata wielder to hold swordsmen at bay and the long shaft offered greater leverage permitting powerful and efficient strikes and cuts.
^
^The introduction of firearms in the Sixteenth Century saw the almost virtual disappearance of the naginata on the battlefield. Naginatajutsu is still practiced today in Japan as a popular martial art.

 

[Storm Grunt]

Here is the in-game shot of Naginatajutsu pedia entry by:7Ronin and the new Tech Icon I made to go with it.

Keep up the excellent work guys we have some good momentum going.

 

[7ronin]

Stormy, that's an excellent tech icon; I like it and I hope you will enter it in Flamand's monthly static graphics contest. By the way, I pm'd you with a correction to Naginatajutsu.

Here's another entry:

#BLDG_Decree
^
^
^In bygone times, the Emperor of Japan often displayed signs of his favor in the form of an imperial decree.
^
^A town which receives an Imperial Decree sees a reduction in $LINK<Corruption=GCON_Corruption> and a greater resistance to $LINK<Propaganda=GCON_Espionage>.
^
#DESC_BLDG_Decree
^
^
^In Japan, the Emperor is known as [Tenno] which literally means [Heavenly Sovereign]. The Japanese imperial line was probably established no later than the Seventh Century although almost mythological historical records place its beginnings much earlier. The present Emperor can trace an unbroken genealogical line back to these earliest emperors making the Japanese imperial house the longest reigning monarchial line in world history.
^
^Despite his theoretical kingly powers over the land of Japan and its people, for much of the time since the late Twelfth Century up until 1868 the Emperor has been a puppet of powerful military leaders. Despite this, the position of the Emperor has been deeply ingrained in Japanese society and he has been an enduring symbol of the Japanese state. Consequently, as befits a Confucian society, no Shogun has held power without theoretically receiving the blessing of the Emperor.
^
^In your quest for domination over all of Japan, an Imperial Decree acknowledging your pre-eminence will do much to advance your cause over your rivals and secure the approval of the people. The Imperial Decree helps to cement your power in any cities which it may acquire it.
^

The imperial decree has a lot of possibilities. You could make it derive only from the acquisition of a wonder and it probably also ought to have some happiness advantages as well.

 

[Rambuchan]

I've been idly following this thread with a great interest. I think 7Ronin has been COMING WITH THA GOODS all over the thread and you should try and include his suggestions as much as possible. Not only are they historically detailed and seemingly accurate (the little I know of correlates well with his posts) but they also lend themselves well to civ gaming.

I've seen you mention the Space Race Victory. It's very, very easy to do once you've decided what the "Spaceship parts" are going to be. Here's what you need to do:

1: EDIT > RULES > GENERAL SETTINGS: Set the number of spaceship parts you want and also how many are needed to win.

2: EDIT > RULES > IMPROVEMENTS & WONDERS: Simply rename the Apollo Programme to the wonder you want to kick off your spaceship construction. Ditto with your spaceship parts. This is also where you can set it's cost, benefits and resource/luxury requirements.

NB. a) Make sure your version of the Apollo Prog has "Build Spaceship parts" wonder box checked. b) You have to set the number of the spaceship part in this window.

3: SCENARIO > SCENARIO PROPERTIES: You need to set Spacerace as a Victory Condition or it will all be in vain!

4: Make the appropriate changes to your text files and icons.

I think that's all there is to it.

 

[Takhisis]

I've seen you mention the Space Race Victory. It's very, very easy to do once you've decided what the "Spaceship parts" are going to be. Here's what you need to do...

Hah! Told ya it wouldn&#180;t be so difficult!
Here&#180;s a map of feudal Japan:

And a map with Hokkaido (for PTW): http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/Japan_(Huge).zip
Also, if you want to give it a coin flavour, instead of Gold put Oban, and not koku. Look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oban_%28disambiguation%29, just at the "coin" part.

 

[Rambuchan]

I've got a big fat book of Japanese maps here btw (7th-18th centuries). It's called "Isles of Gold" and is written (and signed ) by a guy called Hugh Cortazzi, who was a diplomat in Japan for decades and kind of "went native". It details the cartographic traditions of Japan, pre and post European contact. Fascinating. If this might be of use to you, for this or anything else, let me know. I might also be able to get some scans out if needs be.

 

[7ronin]

The Cultural Atlas of Japan by Martin Colcutt, et al, is also very good and can be had used for around twenty dollars.