Sevomod: Feedback
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rockinroger
WoC Team Member
Donkey Puncher
Prince
muffin chill dude like rockinrodger said its a game Sevo is not promoting hitlers views . Chances are he ran out of names and trhey are famous Or infamous . but as far as your views on the gameplay be consturctive in your critism of the mod dont just *****
Rockingroger, this is all very beautiful, but I think you still don't understand me. Swastika is the symbol of the nazi germany and it is right to place it in your mod, but it is not right to claim it is the symbol of "liberators of the earth". This was an example. The same problem is here: if Sevo had placed Hitler as a "person", all would be clear. But he added him as a "great person". Haven't you understood me yet?
Uncle Anton
Lighthorseman
Adding Hitler in as a "Great Person" can be argued to be technically correct
From Wiktionary
Adjective
great (comparative greater, superlative greatest)
very big
very good
large scale
important
title referring to an important leader
Hitler was a pig and a monster. If he was alive and in front of me I'd take great pleasure in killing him slowly myself, prolonging his death over several days while I inflicted the maximum pain possible. Having said that, as a historical figure he is significant, thus can be said to be "Great" in that context. He looms as a large, significant figure in a period, albeit dark, of human history. Personally I don't think Sevo can be criticised too heavily for including Hitler as a "Great Person" in the mod because of the above fact. However, I would question Hitler's use as a "Great General". "Great Statesman" would be more appropriate, not because hitler was an adept politician, but rather because politics was more of Hitler's realm than the military if you look over the total course of his career. Stalin ditto.
Castro was largely regionally significant, but Cuba was at the centre of more than one significant episode of the larger Cold War, so he gets a guernsey for that reason I would think. Saddam as a "Great Person" (ie one of historical significance) I'm not so sure about. His influence in history has been largely regional, and it was more a result US foreign policy which has resulted in the focus in the Middle East than anything significant Saddam's done.
Yeah, in short. Mufin. Chill.
Edit: How this relates to Sevo's choices of content in mod, comments on the people Mufin mentioned.
From Wiktionary
Adjective
great (comparative greater, superlative greatest)
very big
very good
large scale
important
title referring to an important leader
Hitler was a pig and a monster. If he was alive and in front of me I'd take great pleasure in killing him slowly myself, prolonging his death over several days while I inflicted the maximum pain possible. Having said that, as a historical figure he is significant, thus can be said to be "Great" in that context. He looms as a large, significant figure in a period, albeit dark, of human history. Personally I don't think Sevo can be criticised too heavily for including Hitler as a "Great Person" in the mod because of the above fact. However, I would question Hitler's use as a "Great General". "Great Statesman" would be more appropriate, not because hitler was an adept politician, but rather because politics was more of Hitler's realm than the military if you look over the total course of his career. Stalin ditto.
Castro was largely regionally significant, but Cuba was at the centre of more than one significant episode of the larger Cold War, so he gets a guernsey for that reason I would think. Saddam as a "Great Person" (ie one of historical significance) I'm not so sure about. His influence in history has been largely regional, and it was more a result US foreign policy which has resulted in the focus in the Middle East than anything significant Saddam's done.
Yeah, in short. Mufin. Chill.
Edit: How this relates to Sevo's choices of content in mod, comments on the people Mufin mentioned.
Uncle Anton,
Thinking in your "dictionary" way, your explanation is not acceptable, because the second meaning of "great" is "very good" and only the last is "title referring to an important leader". Furthermore, the word "statesman" is so explained in Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English:
"a political or government leader, especially one who is respected as being wise, and fair"
"Especially" -this is the most important meaning. Hitler wasn't wise and fair, and that is the most important meaning. The most important meaning of "great" is "very good", so Sevo definitely meant it. So reasoning, we will reach absurdity. I hope you don't want to reach it.
Thinking in your "dictionary" way, your explanation is not acceptable, because the second meaning of "great" is "very good" and only the last is "title referring to an important leader". Furthermore, the word "statesman" is so explained in Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English:
"a political or government leader, especially one who is respected as being wise, and fair"
"Especially" -this is the most important meaning. Hitler wasn't wise and fair, and that is the most important meaning. The most important meaning of "great" is "very good", so Sevo definitely meant it. So reasoning, we will reach absurdity. I hope you don't want to reach it.
Black Rose
Chieftain
:suicide: Oh enough already. In a way I agree with both kinds of views. Having Hitler+++ as great people may tend to piss people off -this is the risk of including such people (thus a good reason for not including them).
Arguing like this, obviously by defining words and meanings to a litteral sense is completely pointless (and besides the point), and I do not think Sevo indended to go all nazi in his mod.
Not having these people in the mod will not make the mod any worse -there are plenty of alternatives to names for many great people. And it will tend to irritate less people by not having them, than to include them for the sake of completion (yes, real history would miss a "hitler" or "sadam hussein", but a game would not -it's just a game, right?). It's better then, to have people adding these names to their xml lists rather than have people remove them.
Remember, where one person has an opinion many others agree. So Mufin -you're not lost in your views, nor are the rest of you either. My opinion is this: This is a great mod regardless of great people names, so I don't really care. But I dislike the persons whose names are mentioned, and being a Norwegian I have good reason to hate Hitler (erasing my family tree is not nice at all, some were in the resistance during the occupation).
Let's drop the ball at that, or am I just silly?
Black Rose was here
Arlborn
Legendary Noob
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2006
- Messages
- 1,939
Mufin said:
Hi, XML, yes, bye.
Or
Hi, tutorial, XML, yes, bye.
Or
Hi, other mod, yes, bye.
Tibia? ..
CIV4 is a lovely game, if you(meaning everybody) dont like something of it, you can just change it with simple and easy commands, lovely isnt it?
Anyway 1 thing I gotta agree with you, Great statemen? Nah, too much, what about a new one, like lets say, Great People and History Manipulator? or Great Coward
Just not sure about the bonuses of this Great people lol AH and other thing, I Would say, considereing that this mod is one of the most succeful mods in this forum and that as far as I saw(I readed most of his forum in past occasions) you are the first one to complain(or whatever) about that, for you dont come telling him how childish or imcopetent or both he is, because as far as it goes, it seems that he knows exactely what he is doing. 1 more time, edit the names yourself if you feel so bothered
If you have any further interest in the process of putting polemic names of the history in CIV4, please use the search button up here and enjoy yourself with the 151367137 thread that there is in this forum about it.
Just one more flammer~, missed them(not) from tibia lol
Black, Rose
That is what I said. This discussion Uncle Anton started is indeed absurd and pointless, therefore I don't want to continue it, although I stand firmly at my position.
No, it is not just a game, it is a game which is, too, as rockinroger said (well, not exactly said), a cause for social commentary. I repeat, I don't tolerate admiring Hitler, because Hitler is the last person to admire, as he has done many awful things. If this is not admiring Hitler, then this is just foolishness of Sevo to place these men in the mod, as many people and I hate them sincerely and don't want them in any mod or any other place as "Great Statesman" or "Great Person". In fact they weren't, and arguing whether "Great Person" means "very good" or "very important" is senseless because we well know meaning of this word.
Arlborn,
I'm glad you agree with me on that (you are the first person to), and I agree with you Sevomod is a good mod if not the best, but those "mistakes" makes the mod horrible and unable to play.
I'm sad I am the first person to complain, I didn't know our comunnity is so unconscious, but I am sure some people would agree with me. And I am sure some people just don't want to discuss with you about it, although they have the same view as me.
If Sevo exactly knows what he is doing, I would say he is provoking us. But no, I would rather say he is a fool.
I won't edit Sevomod, I prefer not to play it. I won't change the author's will.
That is what I said. This discussion Uncle Anton started is indeed absurd and pointless, therefore I don't want to continue it, although I stand firmly at my position.
No, it is not just a game, it is a game which is, too, as rockinroger said (well, not exactly said), a cause for social commentary. I repeat, I don't tolerate admiring Hitler, because Hitler is the last person to admire, as he has done many awful things. If this is not admiring Hitler, then this is just foolishness of Sevo to place these men in the mod, as many people and I hate them sincerely and don't want them in any mod or any other place as "Great Statesman" or "Great Person". In fact they weren't, and arguing whether "Great Person" means "very good" or "very important" is senseless because we well know meaning of this word.
Arlborn,
I'm glad you agree with me on that (you are the first person to), and I agree with you Sevomod is a good mod if not the best, but those "mistakes" makes the mod horrible and unable to play.
I'm sad I am the first person to complain, I didn't know our comunnity is so unconscious, but I am sure some people would agree with me. And I am sure some people just don't want to discuss with you about it, although they have the same view as me.
If Sevo exactly knows what he is doing, I would say he is provoking us. But no, I would rather say he is a fool.
I won't edit Sevomod, I prefer not to play it. I won't change the author's will.
Arlborn
Legendary Noob
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2006
- Messages
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zyphyr said:
Muffin,mwhy not changeywhen the own author says that you can use and edit anythinggin his modofor othersdmods? Iwdont getayourtpoint,aciv4 IS MADE by the owntFIRAXIS to be changedrand rechanged,oso golahead andldo
love subliminar msgs hehe
Certainly, you don't get my point. And my point is, why should I make the effort to edit this mod, when there is better way, not playing this mod?
I'm disappointed with this mod and changing it would be highly inaccurate.
And in fact, I have no will to edit this, I am so disgusted.
I'm disappointed with this mod and changing it would be highly inaccurate.
And in fact, I have no will to edit this, I am so disgusted.
Black Rose
Chieftain
Mufin said:
Yes, so am I. I'm amazed that this pointless discussion still goes on. I think that what can be said has been said. Sevomod is the best mod, Sevo is a genius, and people (myself included) love Sevomod! As mentioned, although I find it peculiar that these names occur in the mod with respect to all those others that may be offended (those that are not myself, because I do not care enough), I find Sevomod to be both entertaining and wonderful in many wonderful ways.
Mufin, you say yourself that this mod is the best (or potentially so). Why not edit the xml file and remove the names? I'd be glad to do it for you if you do not know how to do this yourself. Because this way you'll be able to enjoy the mod too, and the more that plays Sevomod the better.
My sincere wish is that this discussion ends. Please, this thread is not meant for political debates (nor philosophical, theological, political, medical, military, or contradictive). And to sum things up -Hitler is not to be admired in any way, just as this discussion is not to be commented in any way. We are agreed - jippi!
Black Rose was here
rockinroger
WoC Team Member
One thing Id like to see addded to this mod would be assasins (sp?). I personally think the spy unit is too weak and comes to late in the tech tree. So perhaps a unit that comes earlier. Like in realism mod, any thoughts on this? I remember in DYP for civ III something like this. They used to steal my workers and just be a pain in the arse. comments, feedback?
This discussion is not pointless. I have a point. I want Sevo to delete these names from his mod so everyone can play it without being disgusted. And that is my point. As soon as he does it, I will play his mod, but not changing it myself by force. You wrote:
So it ends. But I stand at my position and I am not likely to change. Hitler is admired by adding his name as a "Great Person" and it is culpable to do this, therefore I want Sevo to change it. The same is with Stalin, Castro and Saddam Hussein.
Well, we discuss and discuss, but where is Sevo? Let him tell us what he thinks. I believe many people will play this mod as soon as those great people are erased from it. I repeat: this is culpable to place them. Sevo must understand his mistake and change it. And don't forget about computer insulting the players. This must be changed too. Those are my wishes. I hope they will be fulfilled.
So it ends. But I stand at my position and I am not likely to change. Hitler is admired by adding his name as a "Great Person" and it is culpable to do this, therefore I want Sevo to change it. The same is with Stalin, Castro and Saddam Hussein.
Well, we discuss and discuss, but where is Sevo? Let him tell us what he thinks. I believe many people will play this mod as soon as those great people are erased from it. I repeat: this is culpable to place them. Sevo must understand his mistake and change it. And don't forget about computer insulting the players. This must be changed too. Those are my wishes. I hope they will be fulfilled.
PatrickDockens
Chieftain
Mufin said:
Although discussions on ethics have merits, there are many, many things in this game (not just Sevomod) that could be called into question ethically and as such, perhaps these types of questions better belong in the general CIV forums?
hs1611
Chieftain
Dear Mr. Mufin,
I'm amazed. I'm amazed that you, one who talks so strongly against dictators and their supporters, seem to be one yourself.
Only a Dictator would presume to tell Sevo what he can or cannot do in his MOD. Keyword: his, meaning it is Sevo's right to decide what goes or doesn't go in, here we go again, his MOD. You want it different, you do it yourself. You don't want to have the trouble of modifying the MOD to suit your needs and don't want to play it as is, just don't play it. It's your choice just as it's his choice to do it as he likes. That's called Freedom, if you know what I mean.
Only a Dictator would presume to decide unilaterally what every other SEVOMOD player can or cannot play with (Sevo excluded because it is his MOD and his decision, although he does tend to consider SEVOMOD gamers opinnions). Who are you to tell me I cannot play with Hitler (just to name the most infamous one)?
Anyway, although I share your opinnion of Hitler, Castro, Stalin and Saddam, they indeed were Great Persons, in the sense that they were very Influential and Important People. I don't want to discuss Dictionaries, but let me explain to you that:
Can you honestly say that he was not an important leader? His decisions resulted in the death of millions. That seems very important to me.
As for supressing Hitler's name and role in history, remember that "those that forget history are doomed to repeat it".
Enough said, let's just play the game, or not, it's your choice, and mine, never forget it, it's my choice also.
I'm amazed. I'm amazed that you, one who talks so strongly against dictators and their supporters, seem to be one yourself.
Only a Dictator would presume to tell Sevo what he can or cannot do in his MOD. Keyword: his, meaning it is Sevo's right to decide what goes or doesn't go in, here we go again, his MOD. You want it different, you do it yourself. You don't want to have the trouble of modifying the MOD to suit your needs and don't want to play it as is, just don't play it. It's your choice just as it's his choice to do it as he likes. That's called Freedom, if you know what I mean.
Only a Dictator would presume to decide unilaterally what every other SEVOMOD player can or cannot play with (Sevo excluded because it is his MOD and his decision, although he does tend to consider SEVOMOD gamers opinnions). Who are you to tell me I cannot play with Hitler (just to name the most infamous one)?
Anyway, although I share your opinnion of Hitler, Castro, Stalin and Saddam, they indeed were Great Persons, in the sense that they were very Influential and Important People. I don't want to discuss Dictionaries, but let me explain to you that:
does not mean that all apply but that one apllies, so it does not have to mean that Hitler was very big and very good and large scale and important and title referring to an important leader it means Hitler was very big or very good or large scale or important or title referring to an important leader.Uncle Anton said:
Can you honestly say that he was not an important leader? His decisions resulted in the death of millions. That seems very important to me.
As for supressing Hitler's name and role in history, remember that "those that forget history are doomed to repeat it".
Enough said, let's just play the game, or not, it's your choice, and mine, never forget it, it's my choice also.
Really tough debate over certain great people. I can understand people feeling strongly against certain figures in the game but there's an inherent problem with this. In a game where the nations and leaders of the world are represented, there is plenty of blame to be had.
Most countries have committed atrocities at some point in history, wether small or large scale, especially since the game covers the entire span of human history. Does this mean Firaxis and Sevo should erase any civilization that has ever harmed the innocent? There'd barely be a game left if that were the case I believe.
My stance is that the game is intended to reflect the world and therefore reflects good and evil. It's my humble opinion that perhaps this game is not meant for people who wish to enjoy a game that this aspect is not a part of.
Most countries have committed atrocities at some point in history, wether small or large scale, especially since the game covers the entire span of human history. Does this mean Firaxis and Sevo should erase any civilization that has ever harmed the innocent? There'd barely be a game left if that were the case I believe.
My stance is that the game is intended to reflect the world and therefore reflects good and evil. It's my humble opinion that perhaps this game is not meant for people who wish to enjoy a game that this aspect is not a part of.
