Sevomod: Feedback

[AljayBoy]

.... warlords.... warlords.... warlords....

I miss sevomod.... but I refuse to give up my great generals

http://http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=189065

Thats a link to the thread Sevo started to get ideas on what to change in Warlords, sofar it's the vassal states which seem to be popular for getting tweaked.

Post ideas to make sure the 1st Warlords Sevomod is as complete as possible!

 

[AljayBoy]

Yeah, sounds good to me!
...but where does this gold come from?! Have you also implemented a loss of gold on the opponents side? In my opinion that should be implemented that way.

Another thing I dislike in all the CIVs, is the wrong use of galleons. In history, they were used as trade- or "native-treasure-hook"-ships. In CIV you only use them to carry troops. This was solved much more realistic in Colonization or other older games like Imperialism (II), where you had two types of fleets:
The trade-fleet and the war fleet . . .
How can this be solved?!

I think we all agree the naval aspect of all Civ games has lacked that special something, but I think you may have found the answer.

Having a Merchant Navy as well as a Military Navy would open up a lot of new options: diplomacy, having overseas trade agreements but no open borders and vice versa; militarily, needing escorts for the Merchant Navy and being able to target your enemies; and also in making the overseas trade networks more realistic buy having to build the actual merchant ships and choosing where and whom to trade with.

To accomplish this I'd scrap the automated overseas trade network with other nations and instead be able to build merchant ships through the ages. Perhaps starting off with a "Merchant Galleon" which, in the same way to automate a work boat to go to the nearest resource, you can automate, or specify, your Merchant Galleon to trade with another nation's coastal city.

In order to keep the numbers down (as one ship per coastal city would be too many units on the screen, and would most likely melt my pc's hard drive after 10 minutes!) you could code in that Nation A can have 1 merchant unit to trade with Nation B, but Nation B also has a merchant unit which trades with Nation A, meaning there are 2 merchant ships providing commerce or gold to both Nation A and B when it docks with our coastal cities.

I think the main problem with this though (not including the actual modding which I'm a novice at and would imagine to be a killer!) is that on a map with just 10 civs this could lead to the creation of 90 additional units, not including escorts.

However it's what I thought of when I read Hived's post, and I have typed my ramblings as they came to me but I hope my main points are clear enough.

 

[sidwannabe]

To accomplish this I'd scrap the automated overseas trade network with other nations and instead be able to build merchant ships through the ages. Perhaps starting off with a "Merchant Galleon" which, in the same way to automate a work boat to go to the nearest resource, you can automate, or specify, your Merchant Galleon to trade with another nation's coastal city.

Thats not a bad idea - I was thinking that if there was a 'trade' command for one of those ships, like when you put a caravel on explore - the ship would then automatically travel to all ports where you have an open border agreement. As long as someone didn't splash your merchant ships in war or by a barbarian vessel, you owuld get the trade/gold benefit. And maybe you couldn't trade commodities with another civ without that ship and the agreement either. I don't see needing one ship for each tradeable civ though. Maybe just one for each agreement - no ship available, no trade ability..

 

[Titi]

Yeah, sounds good to me!
...but where does this gold come from?! Have you also implemented a loss of gold on the opponents side? In my opinion that should be implemented that way.

Yep, that's how it works! I sent the modified code to Sevo.

Another thing I dislike in all the CIVs, is the wrong use of galleons. In history, they were used as trade- or "native-treasure-hook"-ships. In CIV you only use them to carry troops. This was solved much more realistic in Colonization or other older games like Imperialism (II), where you had two types of fleets:
The trade-fleet and the war fleet.
I still miss the blocked harbours in CIV. You simply can still trade over sea, if you have built no single battle ship and your enemies armada is blocking the coast squares around your capital!
How can this be solved?!

I agree!

 

[PatrickDockens]

Another thing I dislike in all the CIVs, is the wrong use of galleons. In history, they were used as trade- or "native-treasure-hook"-ships. In CIV you only use them to carry troops. This was solved much more realistic in Colonization or other older games like Imperialism (II), where you had two types of fleets:
The trade-fleet and the war fleet.
I still miss the blocked harbours in CIV. You simply can still trade over sea, if you have built no single battle ship and your enemies armada is blocking the coast squares around your capital!
How can this be solved?!

I do like the idea of being able to blockade someone, but the need to create merchant ships for trade, if its done and kept simple to manage, it'd be OK. I remember the need to manage carravans in the old Civs getting tiresome.

 

[Titi]

Please do so and tell me if it works for you... I use the list quite often, even more so in the late-game stage where the number of your cities is really large. It gives you a lot you need to know on a glance but could use a little tweaking like I described to make it even more useful

OK, tried it:

• click on a city name on the list and then on the "view" button below: works as expected (the correct city screen opens)
• double-click on a city name as the same effect as a single click
• btw the "house" button is the F1 key - the domestic advisor.

 

[Titi]

I do like the idea of being able to blockade someone, but the need to create merchant ships for trade, if its done and kept simple to manage, it'd be OK. I remember the need to manage carravans in the old Civs getting tiresome.

Why not something like the way it was handled in CTP? The caravans needed to be built, as in Civ 2, but it was not a unit. In the commercial screen, you could see the number of caravans built, and the number of free caravans (to be used to create another trading route).
So you basically needed resources AND caravans to create a trading route (plus of course an origin and a destination!)

 

[Shigga]

OK, tried it:

• click on a city name on the list and then on the "view" button below: works as expected (the correct city screen opens)
• double-click on a city name as the same effect as a single click
• btw the "house" button is the F1 key - the domestic advisor.

Thank you. I tried again, too.

to #1: have you tried changing the sorting of the list, then highlighting and clickinig on view? Bc when I DO NOT change the sorting it shows the correct city. When I sort, for example, by culture rate, click on a city and on "view" it does not show the correct city. I suspect it shows the city that was on the same spot in the initial sorting, but I have to check again. Has anybody else encountered that phenomenon?

to #2: What is the effect? It shows the "production"-part of the city detail screen below the advisor list, right? So why doesn't double clicking open the whole city detail screen? I use the list a lot and I mean A LOT and I keep on stumbling over this because it contradicts the intuitive usage... very annoying.

to #3: Yeah I looked that up thank you The word "domestic" just slipped my mind ^^

It would be so great if this could be solved along with the gp-chances-pop-up inclusion. Actually Sevo, if you achieve this i give you my word I will actually send you a beer via mail ^^

 

[PatrickDockens]

Why not something like the way it was handled in CTP? The caravans needed to be built, as in Civ 2, but it was not a unit. In the commercial screen, you could see the number of caravans built, and the number of free caravans (to be used to create another trading route).
So you basically needed resources AND caravans to create a trading route (plus of course an origin and a destination!)

I never played CTP, but this sounds like a good option. But when you say resources, do mean trading resources like stone, iron, etc? Would this take the place of the trading in the diplomacy screen or would a caravan be required to be on hand to make such a trade?

Or would caravans be used just to increase gold, like the trade routes that cities get now do?

 

[Hived]

I never played CTP, but this sounds like a good option. But when you say resources, do mean trading resources like stone, iron, etc? Would this take the place of the trading in the diplomacy screen or would a caravan be required to be on hand to make such a trade?

Or would caravans be used just to increase gold, like the trade routes that cities get now do?

Yep, Titi is right.
The way CTP solved it, wasn't that bad... although it was too easy to pillage this trade routes!

For all who didn't play it: In CTP the idea of trade routes was, to build up monopolies: For the first ressource elephant, you had in a city, this city got +10 trade. For the second +20, the third +30... so it was the best to send all your elephants in one city, to get maximum of cash. This monopoly stuff is bullfeathers,

...but the idea of setting up trade-routes just by lines on the map sounds interesting.

BUT in CTP it was f***ing easy to pillage such a trade route: You just had to send a unit on the 'trade-line', click the pillage icon and the route was gone.
I got two different ideas how to make it tougher in CIV:
1.) You first have to discover an enemy trade-route. After you have found it (maybe by having a unit standing on this route), it works as in CTP.
2.) You always see the routes, but the ship/caravan is of course not on each square! If you TRY to pillage such a route, you maybe have a chance of 1/5 to really pillage it.
3.) got another idea: You can send ships/units on such a route and, like workers, have to leave them there (maybe 5 turns), until they have finished their business.

The escort thing could be managed by setting up a "sea-trade-capital" (maybe a small nat. wonder, 50 hammers to build) and give all naval units there a new escort button. If a route is now pillaged, the computer divides the number of your trade-routes through the number of 'escort-ships'. If it is >1 a escort-ship battles the pirates (and wins or looses), the route remains. If it is <1 the computer first checks if a escort-ship is near the attacked imaginary trade-ship (example: 4 escort-ships, 5 trade-routes -> 80% of interception).
The nat. wonder-thing could maybe also be avoided by leaving ships in cities, the trade-route goes through... but in this case, your programming would have to guarantee, that the routes are set up, through such coastal cities....

At last this whole ideas are really hard to implement... dunno, if anybody feels capable doing it... and if, also finds it worth to do... if not, we will still have safe harbours and trade-routes in CIV4 without building any ships

 

[Shigga]

Hm sounds far too complicated and bloats management unnecessarily.
Why not give spies the ability to disable trade routes in a city and it's connection to the trade network for a certain number of turns for a start? An option labelled, for example "sabotage city trade". This should be easier to implement, easier to use and it gives additional importance to spy units which suffer a pretty meaningless existence since they lost most of their abilities they had in civ3. Just my 2 cents

EDIT: Additionally, to adapt parts of your concept, spies could have the ability to move onto an enemy resource and "block" it from use. The unit has to remain on the spot to uphold the block. Differing from the regular blocking with your troops, a spy block can only be lifted by another spy. This way you can effectively block strategic resources without having to pillage them just to have to rebuild the mine after you captured the city. And you can evade detection with the spy and sabotage strat recs deep in enemy territory.

 

[Hived]

Sounds good too, but doesn't solve the problem with the 'unblockable' coastal cities! I can imagine, that both variants can work side by side.
Another idea, much easier to program (I hope), is, if your enemy has more ships in your territory than you, all your seatrade-network will be broken, until you are in peace with the guy or until your ships outnumber the opponent's ones.
To regard the effect of technology, you can also count the strength of the ships, so a frigate will count more than a caravel.
Pirateships maybe could have this 'blocking-ability' also in peacetime!

This version will be more global, so english colonies in America will suffer the same problem (can't trade with each other if they have no road-connection), if the spanish armada lies in the North-Sea (and vice versa)... but easier to program and to handle in game!

What do you think?!

 

[Shigga]

Sounds good too, but doesn't solve the problem with the 'unblockable' coastal cities! I can imagine, that both variants can work side by side.

Like I said, give the spies the ability to disconnect a city from the trade network. Technically it does not matter if it is a coastal city or inland. So when you disconnect a coastal city the connection via harbor to the network is disabled too, naturally.

 

[Hived]

Yes, could be a kind of solution... but:
1.) spies come into game a bit late, while coastal-city-trade already is established with sailing (for nothing!!)
2.) it seems for me a bit too tough, because:
2a.) in that way, you can disconnect the opponents main cities systematically and he can nearly not react on your attacks
2b.) spies also work in peacetime
2c.) spies can use enemy infrastructure (roads/railway)

The only solution on this would be, to let you pay the spy in gold for disconnecting, but then, this ability seems (depends on the amount of gold of course) to be to weak again.

About the ressource-blocking: In my opinion the ability of spies to destroy improvements represents this blocking already. To let the AI know, what's up with the ressource and how to react against it may also be tough to implement.

 

[Shigga]

1) Jep. Strange since the espionage buisiness is not a modern concept but quite ancient...
2a) Yes he can. By building his own spies. Who said he is not notified of the block? Also, those actions are handled with the same system of chances for failure or success that handles steal map etc., so it is not sure you will be successful in your attempts. You could also gradually lessen the chance of success the more spy units the adversary has at the ready/and or certain city improvements or national wonders like CIA or the like. Plus, you could make it a one-timer, meaning the unit will disappear after a sucess. And who said the block will be permanent? 5 to 10 turns seem realistic. There are multiple ways to balance this.
2b) The function should cause a war with your opponent by x% chance (namely th chance that your enemy discovers you are behind the whole thing)
2c) What's the problem there? If you nerf this ability, you will only have useless spies again.

I agree it's hard to teach the AI the use of it.

Also you could swap the block tile since a spy can already destroy tile improvements and only give him the block trade mission.

 

[Titi]

have you tried changing the sorting of the list, then highlighting and clickinig on view? Bc when I DO NOT change the sorting it shows the correct city. When I sort, for example, by culture rate, click on a city and on "view" it does not show the correct city. I suspect it shows the city that was on the same spot in the initial sorting, but I have to check again.

No, I admit I didn't. I'm gonna try that later tonight.

to #2: What is the effect? It shows the "production"-part of the city detail screen below the advisor list, right? So why doesn't double clicking open the whole city detail screen? I use the list a lot and I mean A LOT and I keep on stumbling over this because it contradicts the intuitive usage... very annoying.

You're right, double-click has no effect here, and that's confusing.

to #3: Yeah I looked that up thank you The word "domestic" just slipped my mind ^^

It would be so great if this could be solved along with the gp-chances-pop-up inclusion. Actually Sevo, if you achieve this i give you my word I will actually send you a beer via mail ^^

Hmm... Maybe I'll check what I can do then!

 

[hs1611]

(...)

to #2: What is the effect? It shows the "production"-part of the city detail screen below the advisor list, right? So why doesn't double clicking open the whole city detail screen? I use the list a lot and I mean A LOT and I keep on stumbling over this because it contradicts the intuitive usage... very annoying.

(...)

I believe it also works like that in vanilla cIV, so it looks like it's a(nother) vanilla cIV issue and not Sevomod.

 

[solanacea]

This mod is awesome. Thanks a lot Sevo and everyone involved.

My suggestions:
1. how about giving great statesman the ability to dramatically improve your relations with another (or maybe all other) empires? a great statesman that ends a war you are about to lose or gets you elected supreme leader would be real cool.

2. The catapult is way overpowered. Historically, they were extremely inaccurate and I dont know any field battle where catapults played a major role. They were useful for sieges which is I think well simulated in vanilla civ. Also, ranged bombard for the catapult is so unrealistic. their range was no longer than a tank! Actually, ranged bombard only makes sense for radar artillery/MRLS type of units. Direct attack+collateral damage+chance to withdraw simulates artillery better because even the most advanced artillery is susceptible to counter-battery fire. It is too overpowering to be able to attack without risk of retaliation.
I admire the time spent to write the code for this, but it feels like a step backwards.

3. I am not a huge fan of attack/defense promotions. With the defense promotion there is little need to pick the cool arctic/desert combat type of promotions.
4. Also, it is not very realistic to have units ultra-specializing against some particular type with the extra promos in the mod. Axeman with shields would be better against archers (+25% maybe), for sure, but I just cant imagine how they would be invincible against arrows(25+25+30 %) but very vulnerable against the sword. Sometimes more is not better.

5. In vanilla civ the more religions you have always the better. I think this is unrealistic. How about a happiness penalty for having multiple religions wtihout their proper temples? maybe religions you founded should be excluded for this rule. If this makes managing happiness too difficult a few luxury resources may be added for balance.

6. Airforces mod by theLopez is a great idea! How about being able to arm your planes with laser guided bombs promo(+150% bombard damage)?

 

[Nexushyper]

Other than the already mentioned missing text(Some wonders ect have no info on mouse over) I like this mod.

I recommend looking at and using (perhaps with some modification for balance):
AirForces mod
Military Bases Mod
Route Pillage Mod
And most mods by TheLopez.

 

[Good Sauce]

On trade routes and the importance of a navy

This was an idea I put forward awhile back, but I don't remember sevo commenting on it, so maybe it got lost in the thread. Alot of the previous ideas are good, but I think we can get the same result in a much simpler way. My idea is to give all combat naval units a "Blockade" ability. It would only require one ship, and the ability would last as long as the ship didn't move. A blockaded city would losr 50% of it's NET commerece. This means the total after all percentages are added in. The math would work like this:

You are at 70% science rate. Your only coastal city is your capitol. It's base commerece is 100 (it's a very nice city, covered in gold mines or something) so 70 of that goes to scince and 30 to gold, due to civics and buildings this gets increased by 100%. the final total is 60 gpt your capitol is earning you. Then the blockade hits and that total figure is cut in half. Now, because you didn't keep up a coast guard you're losing 30 gold every turn.

Obviously I inflated the numbers a bit for easy math, but it's not impossible for a city to have 100 base commerece. And this was only one city, imagine the effects on three or four cities. If you're running your economy tight even 10 gpt can be back breaking. A navy is no longer an option!