~ SG: Utopia of Babylon ~

[joespaniel]

The completion of the Great Library incited a Golden Age in Babylon!
We aquired Construction and the Republic, which catapulted us into a new era. We then aquired Monotheism!
Research was devoted to Theology, and the sciences were given a hefty boost in revenue.

The city of Hamburg revolted and came over to our side, and averted a war. A settler was , and the city disbanded.
Hamburg is no more.

Production in Silkton was switched to Lighthouse, and Babylon to Colossus. America finished the Lighthouse 2 turns ahead, then almost on cue, the Great Library gave up Monarchy and the Hanging Gardens were finished in 1 turn.

The despotic government was overthrown, and a Monarchy installed. We are not able to support a Republic yet, but very soon. Marketplaces are underway in many cities, which need to grow a little too. Besides, with only one turn of anarchy, switching is a breeze.

The damn American cities will not flip!!!
However, we have locked the border tight and they cannot expand into us with their "coca-cola" culture.

The golden age has ended, and research was slowed to keep the treasury filling and to let TGL do its work (thanks for Fuedalism America! ).
Education is being researched, and once discovered, will render TGL obsolete. My hopes are to get at least Engineering for free before that time. Invention and Chivalry would be really nice!

Our army is huge now, at least double what I began with. No one can bully us anymore. If Germany is to become part of our empire, we have the force to make it so.

That is for someone else to decide, as I opted against war during my reign and it paid off handsomely.
If Germany will trade us their luxuries for ours, I see no reason to attack. A road is almost finished to link our two empires. Hopefully a trade can be worked out, or else... well...

If its going to be war, it should be now, while we are a monarchy.

Also: I forgot to build galleys and go look for the other 3 civs.
Somebody should do that.

Sirian is up, followed by donsig.

 

[joespaniel]

Meldor asked for the 4000 BC save, so here it is:

 

[Knight-Dragon]

I'm disappointed in you, joe. I was expecting 'Germany' to be a new Babylonian province. Oh, well.....

War will come sooner or later, since Germany only borders (bothers?) us. I say we take them out now, rather than later.

 

[joespaniel]

Originally posted by Knight-Dragon
I'm disappointed in you, joe.

Culture victory, you warmonger!

Just hang on, Im working on the German SGIII right now. Once its ready, you can romp all over our neighbors.

We were not ready for war when my turn started. Too weak against a militaristic enemy. Now we are ready, I think we outnumber them 2 to 1 and have swordsmen and horsemen to their archers and spearmen. Plus lots of extra bowmen for garrison duty.

Its up to Sirian. He can try to get a trade deal going, or conquer them for the gems and incense. Since we are a monarchy at present, this would be the time for it.

I would be happy with either course of action. We need luxuries badly at present, and cash flow. Our cities are still really small and dont generate much trade to cover so many improvements.
Room to build the Forbidden Palace would be nice too...

We shall give Sirian some time to check in, as he has several SGs going.

 

[donsig]

I'd say we have to absorb Germany even though we are trying for a culture victory. I'm playing a game as India and haven't even been able to amass 50,000 culture points yet (1700 AD). And I have about 30 cities
.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

I think a quick campaign will swiftly despatch the Germans on their way to oblivion. Then we can develop all the way to the space age. Just have to fortified our American frontiers. Even if we have to fight then, only minimal action around the Praire city.

How about it, guys?

 

[donsig]

I like that plan.

 

[Charis]

Charis Hammurabi (aka the HAMMER ) vividly remembers the 'great insult' of 530 BC. He can hardly believe there's even debate on the matter, and virtually assures his own cabinet that if Germany exists at the start of his next reign, it won't by the end.



Er... culture?? Oh ya. The Hammer politely points out that the "1000 year bonus" is disippating as we sit and use "words" at this point where action is needed!

Charis

 

[joespaniel]

I gave Sirian the tools, now he can use them or not.
I agree with Knight-Dragon, kill them!

I dont want to influence his decision though.
Donsig is right too! Kill, kill, kill!

He will have to make up his own mind.
Kill them now!!! Or Charis will get your glory!!!

I have nothing but confidence he will do the right thing.
Bismark is laughing at you...

I look forward to seeing how it turns out.
You damn well better win!

 

[Sirian]

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Originally posted by joespaniel
I gave Sirian the tools, now he can use them or not.
I agree with Knight-Dragon, kill them!

I dont want to influence his decision though.
Donsig is right too! Kill, kill, kill!

He will have to make up his own mind.
Kill them now!!! Or Charis will get your glory!!!

I have nothing but confidence he will do the right thing.
Bismark is laughing at you...

I look forward to seeing how it turns out.
You damn well better win!

Warmonger. You might as well hit Sirian on the head about it.

 

[Sirian]

Now be careful what you ask for, as you just may get it! I signed on for a diplomatic and cultural rennaissance, and I fully intend to hammer out the Mission Creep factor during my reign.

Inherited Turn 340AD: the new king, Sirian, orders a survey of the kingdom. Here are the results:

* Goodly number of workers. Poor Deerdale never got the irrigations it needed, though, so that will be a top priority.

* Wheat River got whipped into the next millenium. Somebody was pushing our people a little too hard there. (OK, WAY too hard).

* Not a single granary. Anywhere. How can we expect to become the flower of world admiration if we don't have it together enough to feed our own people??? This must be corrected.

* This is the army we have? I can go raze Berlin with this army, but we would have to continue to produce units throughout my entire reign, or until I gave the Germans peace, if we are actually going to conquer a whole nation, even one as weak as Germany.

* Our economy is totally in the drink. TOTALLY. Like... wow it sucks. (OK, some of that is being in Monarchy, but most of it derives from a lack of population. See point about granaries, indexed under subheading "We Have None". )

* Jungle Fish has too much jungle.

* We've had mapmaking for how long now? And nobody has explored those sea currents directly to our east? This too shall be remedied.

* Not a single irrigated grassland tile in the kingdom? File this weediness next to "Granaries, Nonexistant" under "Reasons why our economy is in the drink".


Now I understand that certain elements of our military are riled up about German insults, but truly now, those uncouth savages can't be expected to live up to Babylonian standards. Sure, we COULD march up there and "teach them a lesson" at the business end of our swords, but if we endeavor to live up to our own ideals and show some patience with this inferior, ignorant people, I'm sure we can teach them how to be polite neighbors, and spare themselves from total annihiliation while we busy ourselves with more important things, like temple art, the latest books, and securing our place as the civilization all others aspire to emulate.

One final point before I recount the Era of Diplomatic Enlightenment. I checked F11 and found a most disturbing set of facts on display. Ranked in the bottom half of the world in population? In production? In Commerce? Can you guess why? (Answer starts with "We Have No" and ends with "Granaries").

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Alright. Cut the sarcasm; just fix the problems! Just do it!

joespaniel, donsig and I are not the types into building granaries. In fact, I don't remember building one ever in any of my SGs.

The army not big enough for your taste? Too bad. Now stop whining and go cut up the Germans. Then we can all live happily ever after in Cultural Super-Wonderland Babylonia.

 

[Sirian]

Well... I was going to write a detailed report, complete with several screenshots I had prepared, and some funny moments, but audience reaction to the first half has been to throw tomatoes and jeer. Heh. So instead I'll just post the highlights:

* Revolted back to Republic on first turn.

* Got the Germans to pay us for 20 turns of peace, then cut a deal, their incense for 7gpt and RoP.

* Rushed a Harbor (we had none of those either), also some buildings at Wheat River, which is the ideal location for the Forbidden Palace (and why I fussed about it being messed up).

* Almost every other city was switched to granary.

* I irrigated a couple of grassland at each of our larger cities with grass, where access to water was available.

* More irrigation allowed our growth rate to more than double, and granaries double it again. Our economy is now much stronger, both in terms of production and trade.

* Built six new cities, including securing most of the colony island. I got there first because I started us in that direction from the moment I took over my turn. First two cities were where I wanted, third was best I could do in a race with three other AI's. You can still see the two losers parked on the island.

* Cathedrals in our two best towns, infrastructure improvements all around, more workers, upgraded units, started the FP, and some new barracks, too.

* Our lone galley was lost at sea on my last turn, but caught a glimpse of a passing Persian galley. Contact with the other continent made, maps brokered.



Joespaniel: Did I misunderstand what you intended by "Babylon, with culture and diplomacy as the main strategy, less emphasis on conquest"? Less than what? If bending our whole civ to a middle age war is less conquest, you must have been playing some pretty aggressive games. You yourself don't even seem to me to be still interested in diplomacy and culture. What happened?

I had fun on this turn, turning the economy around and getting us growing faster, and pretty much securing Germany as a permanant vassal neighbor, if we like. That wasn't in line with your urgings for the turn, but fits with what you originally described for the game -- and IMHO set us better on the path to victory, military OR cultural/diplomatic, than the war would have.

You've got some dissention in the ranks now, though, as I'm as unhappy with Knight's remarks as he was with mine, and I know that's not what you wanted. I'm sorry for that. If you really want the war, discard my result and I'll step aside, and donsig can pick it up from your last save and go attack. No hard feelings from me.

You need to choose a mission priority, though. If cultural or diplomatic victory is the goal, then warmongering is not the way to get there. If domination/conquest is the goal, that should be stated. And if you want to have your war and your diplomacy, too, then space race is your only hope, as we'll be too reviled to win by diplomacy, too slowed to win by culture, and too hogtied by mixed objectives to dedicate to military victory.

If not for the theme of the game, I wouldn't have vetoed the war effort -- but I probably also wouldn't be playing this one. In an open game, I'd have gone ahead with the war, not ignored everything my predecessors had done, since a good bit was invested to prepare for it. But this wasn't an open game, it was a private themed game and you asked me to come play. Well, I'm here, playing in good faith, and here's the result of my turn.


- Sirian

 

[LKendter]

Originally posted by Knight-Dragon
joespaniel, donsig and I are not the types into building granaries. In fact, I don't remember building one ever in any of my SGs.

Build a granary? I don't think I ever had either.
Of course, 90% of my games I get the Pyramids, the ultimate granary.

 

[Charis]

I'm also confused now as to the direction here. I thought the two key factors were: i) culture-diplomacy outmaneuver, outbuild, out-think the AI's and dominate without *having to* flex muscle excessively (still being strong and able to when needed), ii) a gentlemanly game with an emphasis on having fun.

Well... the intensity of the warmongery was just kicked up to a new level. I contributed to it this turn with the thoughts of "the Hammer", but that's the persona he picked up when he saw the need for aggression sometime against Germany and yet no barracks, no mil units, few land improvements, and too few cities.
That tiny little AI 'demanded' tribute from us -- while this is enough to rile us, it should be a HUGE red flag that we're not even close to having the military to take him out -- at least not in a way that doesn't leave us tremendously behind. For all his spouting of war, 'the Hammer' was a builder

Dragon, those comments may have been totally appropriate to joespaniel or donsig or someone who knows you well but... if you read that as someone who doesn't know you, you'll see how rude that was. joespaniels 'subliminal' post was hilarious, I was rotfl on that one, but telling someone to can it and 'do what we said cuz we don't do things that way in these parts' is way over the line. OTOH, I'm so used to posts just like Sirian made they don't phase me and I usually end up saying "hmmm, that's spot on." (like this time) Perhaps they come across as something other than instructional to folks not used to seeing reports like that.

I can go either way, mongering or cultural, so I hope that's clarified. But in either case it's going to be 10x harder without infrastructure, and well... granaries are a key part of that, as are temples, harbors and irrigation. (No granaries?? Ever?? Oops, I'm not in Kansas anymore! )

Charis

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Sorry, Sirian, and Charis. I was just joking! (Look at all the similies). Feel free to do whatever you want, pls. Guess I was really overboard.

Seriously, Sirian, I have no problems with you at all. The fault is all on me. You're doing a great job. I have no objections at how the game is being driven along.

Sorry again. Fr now on, will keep my mouth SHUT in this SG. Sorry.

 

[Sirian]

OK then, hatchets buried, all is well.

Still need Joespaniel's input on his vision for the game, though. Are we really doing diplomacy? Because if we are, there's no reason to roll over Germany, we can bully them well enough just using the pen, we can flip up to three of their cities with cultural pressure, and we are currently semi-dependant upon our RoP-for-cheaper-luxuries deal.


Here was one of the funniest moments I have ever seen in a Civ3 game. When I realized what happened, the gall of the AI...! I laughed for minutes on end. With the Right of Passage in place, Germany marched a worker right up to our capital, then IRRIGATED OVER AN EXISTING MINE to start the chain of bringing water to that city on the far right. If left alone, he will literally irrigate his way across our lands over the next few centuries!

This was good for us! I was lamenting the fact that I had no way to irrigate Silkton. We can let him do the work for us! We need to mine the hills over there and get some irrigated grasslands so the city grows much more quickly. Then when it gets to size 11 or 12 we can come back and mine over some of the irrigations to improve shields again, when the extra food is no longer useful.

But... just the GALL of the AI! The audacity, the bravery! And the trust, that we wouldn't take offense at them destroying OUR mines so they could lead water to a city hundreds of miles away!

That's One Bold Worker!!!

 

[Sirian]

Our colonies, complete with The Losers (Iro, German) in the land grab race now just parked and twiddling their thumbs. Hey, I know that's not the prettiest "victory lap" but we won the race! Best I could do under the circumstances.

 

[Sirian]

Here's the homeland. Missionary Point was founded to pressure those German cities, try to get them to flip to us. Unfortunately, right after I founded it and rushed the temple, Munich's border expanded! This means we'll also have to rush the library ASAP on donsig's turn, or else concede that Munich is going to be the stronger city over there, culturally.

The best irony is... by the time that Bold Worker gets irrigation over to Hannover, the city is sure to have come over to our control because they're so much in awe of our civilization.

- Sirian