Jorgo_Mono
No, Not like the disease!
I honestly cant see how A has an advantage over B. Could someone explain?
SGFN-05: A work in progress
- Thread starter TheOverseer714
- Start date
Rodent
Carnage
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2008
- Messages
- 892
In the Early game, Food is Critical , more so than shields and if you have enough food, you can whip the shields in despotism.
Start A has a cow (IIRC) and 3-4 Flood plains. Each plain will produce 3 food after improvement while the cow may produce 4-5 food, getting us +5fpt or +6fpt. With a Granary. it means growth in 2 turns for cities below size 6, the shields can be got by whipping a few people
Start A has a cow (IIRC) and 3-4 Flood plains. Each plain will produce 3 food after improvement while the cow may produce 4-5 food, getting us +5fpt or +6fpt. With a Granary. it means growth in 2 turns for cities below size 6, the shields can be got by whipping a few people
Optional
Deity
Start A is the most food rich start (and guys, and there's really no mistake about that second cow being there, you can clearly see 1 black and 1 white leg sticking out from the fog). Defendability is not an issue with a capitol. That's more a concern with towns we're gonna found later. You would for instance not found towns on little islands first thing, because they are very difficult to defend.
From the moment we're founding towns around the capitol, that capitol becomes difficult to reach for our enemies. We are not likely to get attacked in the capitol, so a terrain defence bonus for a capitol is a non issue.
But I do have the same experience with floodplains as Darski: just the turn before you want to finish your first settler, there's that message going: 'Sir, the citizens in Delhi are dying of desease, we think it's the conditions in the floodplain.' And in two turns the population drops back from 3 to 1. Bye settler. The floodplain doesn't even have to be adjacent to the capitol, as soon as it's in the big x, you're at risk. I hope guys that are starting are lucky with the RNG on this point...
Northenwolf, I thought RoP reputation and trade reputation was seperate, which is what the article says, but CommandoBob says the article is wrong. I ran a little test on a game save, and I have to swallow my words.
In this game save that I dusted off I was able to buy Monarchy for gpt from the Japanese. But when I signed an RoP with the Arabs and attacked them (the Arabs,of course), the Japanese would not accept my gpt anymore.
I'm really surprised, I thought these things had nothing to do with each other. But it often just takes a minute to pick a game save and find out something for sure.
Anyway, you wouldn't want to wreck your reputation if you can help it. If it happens by accident; too bad. It isn't a drama.
From the moment we're founding towns around the capitol, that capitol becomes difficult to reach for our enemies. We are not likely to get attacked in the capitol, so a terrain defence bonus for a capitol is a non issue.
But I do have the same experience with floodplains as Darski: just the turn before you want to finish your first settler, there's that message going: 'Sir, the citizens in Delhi are dying of desease, we think it's the conditions in the floodplain.' And in two turns the population drops back from 3 to 1. Bye settler. The floodplain doesn't even have to be adjacent to the capitol, as soon as it's in the big x, you're at risk. I hope guys that are starting are lucky with the RNG on this point...
Northenwolf, I thought RoP reputation and trade reputation was seperate, which is what the article says, but CommandoBob says the article is wrong. I ran a little test on a game save, and I have to swallow my words.
In this game save that I dusted off I was able to buy Monarchy for gpt from the Japanese. But when I signed an RoP with the Arabs and attacked them (the Arabs,of course), the Japanese would not accept my gpt anymore.
I'm really surprised, I thought these things had nothing to do with each other. But it often just takes a minute to pick a game save and find out something for sure.
Anyway, you wouldn't want to wreck your reputation if you can help it. If it happens by accident; too bad. It isn't a drama.
ThinkTank
RL Addict
QFT. I like floodplains, but preferbaly not for my capitol or settler pump, because of the disease risk.
anaxagoras
King
My understanding is that in order to get disease, a citizen has to actually be working a floodplain tile. The governor will always assign a citizen to a floodplain tile because of the food, but this assignment can be manually countermanded, if necessary. Is that correct? (Edit: This is also why we move one to the west before plopping down. If we settle directly on the floodplain, we cannot re-assign our citizen to avoid disease if we need to.)
In any case, I view this as a minor problem that will only have a major effect if it happens before we build our very first settler. Even then, we have a forest, and if we are able to make a granary early, our population will likely never again fall below the point where this makes more than a turn or two difference.
If Optional is correct about the second cow, it is a clear choice even discounting for the floodplains, in my view. I havent been able to look at the actual saves, and my fog-gazing skills can't penetrate the posted screenies, but Optional seems pretty convinced.
I reiterate my vote for A.
Optional
Deity
This could well be true. That's something I never really kept an eye on. I like the input of those kind of insights!
I'm happy with start #1.
anaxagoras
King
I checked the save: Optional is right, there is clearly a second cow. Moreover, the square W, NW of our position is probably another floodplain, and the square E, NE of us is sugar. There may also be sugar E, 2SE of us. Start A is loaded!
TheOverseer714
Overseer
I think we have a consensus on the start, if it was an actual election, this one could be called with 1% of the vote in. I think we can move on from choosing the start, and figure out a lineup. I can probably start playing tomorrow, so it is time to figure out who goes after me and what our strategy is, though early is a no brainer. My proposed build order is warrior, warrior, worker, warrior, settler, granary, settler. Tech path depends on our government choice. I think we could still go Republic, this is an AW variant, but we only have to be at war against one enemy. The fear of WW will definitely keep sandbagging to a minimum, and I think learning to war as a Republic is an absolutely critical skill for high level play. I may be wrong, but leaning on the no WW governments too heavily holds players back in the long run.
.
darski
Regent in Training
post deleted by author
Optional
Deity
I wouldn't want anyone even to move a single unit ahead of the game! It's a big NO!!!
Darski, have you tried Snoopy's floodplains? They're much better than Firaxis' slime tracks, and should fit in with your pack. Btw, if I try putting something new in, I just rename the existing file, like I make 'floodplains' into 'floodplainsnot', before putting the replacement in. If I'm not happy about the replacement, I just remove the 'not' again from the original file, and everything's back to how it was.
Darski, have you tried Snoopy's floodplains? They're much better than Firaxis' slime tracks, and should fit in with your pack. Btw, if I try putting something new in, I just rename the existing file, like I make 'floodplains' into 'floodplainsnot', before putting the replacement in. If I'm not happy about the replacement, I just remove the 'not' again from the original file, and everything's back to how it was.
darski
Regent in Training
i don't remember if I redid the floodplains or not. I did download a fatter floodplains graphic but I don't think I used it... too many other changes to remember I guess.
Have snagged yours and will test it...
Edited to add... I like that one and have pasted it in fer shure!
Have snagged yours and will test it...
Edited to add... I like that one and have pasted it in fer shure!
anaxagoras
King
You simply cannot play ahead in a succession game, even on a pending start, and then report back ANYTHING about the results. That is absolutely taboo.
When we said we were checking starts, we were "fog gazing". The posted pictures aren't as clear as what you can see in the actual game start, and it is possible to discerne certain details about things that are still obscured by fog. But it is not permitted to move any units or play any turns in the course of doing this. You can only load the save and look. No movement or play is allowed.
If you have a doubt about whether or not you should post a detail, DON'T POST! Ask first.
When we said we were checking starts, we were "fog gazing". The posted pictures aren't as clear as what you can see in the actual game start, and it is possible to discerne certain details about things that are still obscured by fog. But it is not permitted to move any units or play any turns in the course of doing this. You can only load the save and look. No movement or play is allowed.
If you have a doubt about whether or not you should post a detail, DON'T POST! Ask first.
darski
Regent in Training
I am so sorry and will never post such again. I thought that someone had played save A to see what was there.
I truly apologize.
anaxagoras
King
No problem, Darski, and I hope you realize that what I said wasn't meant in a personal way. I wanted to clarify so both you and other lurkers would understand the rules that are an integral part of playing in a succession game.
All's well that ends well. We're cool, here.
All's well that ends well. We're cool, here.
Ansar
Détente avec l'été
lurker's comment: I don't know if any of you guys managed to notice, but there is sugar NE-E of where the settler is (start A).
TheOverseer714
Overseer
Gee, I go away for sleep and a big distraction occurs. I don't even want any details, just glad it is over. Now, on with the good stuff. I am considering a max run on Pottery before working on Writing, but then again, it is Pangaea, and that means someone probably has that tech. So maybe a minimum run on Writing will give us the cash to buy that tech. Unlike standard AW, this variant allows exploration, in fact wide exploration is a good idea, we want to know where everyone is, so I hope for fruitful trades. I think we do want to try to stick with Republic as long as possible, and as Rodent pointed out, India is religious, so quick government changes are an option, should we get in a jam. I don't think we will, myself. Careful warring can make WW a minor nuisance. Some depends on our opponents. Should we get persia, rome, the iroqois or the celts as our first opponent, it could get rough. And then there is carthage and the greeks. The game will decide what happens. We will play for the Republic slingshot, but will also keep our options open. So if there is anything that needs decided, now is the time, I plan to start this evening.
Optional
Deity
You probably know the trade mechanics on a map like this better than I do. I nearly always can find someone to trade with for Pottery, but I play with my opponants much closer.
The Republic slingshot I find difficult to make on Emperor Pangaea, but again: lots of early AI contact (AI - AI contact in this case) in my solo games might make it more difficult.
TheOverseer714
Overseer
Test game is scary, the AIs are researching and trading so fast that I was beat to Writing and Philosophy, so I couldn't even trade for IW and HBR. Pangaea tech is faster, that is a fact. Actually, we might try to go for Literature and build the Great Library. We can also expect our target to gather allies, so we must also. I am at war with everyone and no iron or horses. Good thing we didn't use that save.
Optional
Deity
Without wanting to influence you all that much, I'll share my experiences in comparable situations:
Playing Emperor, with quite a few AI's on the same continent, starting with Alphabet (as the Indians do), I've always started researching Writing on 20%, knocking it down to 10% asap. In roughly 50% of the occasions the AI then beats me to writing. If I'm beaten to Writing, no worries, I often still know a few civs that don't have Writing yet where I can make some deals with. But if I've been beaten to writing, I always go straight on to Philosophy for the free tech. Then, even without going for Code of Laws first, I still often get beaten to Philosophy. If I'm the first to research Writing, and my early development went well, I'll try the Republic slingshot.
The tech pace is quite fast on Emperor if you put quite a few civs on the same continent. It slows down as soon as the Middle Ages come. I expect to be behind in tech before that, but in the Middle Ages it's quite easy to catch up.
The Great Library doesn't seem a necessity to me, but could be handy.
In the real early game I will almost always trade if I can, but if the AI asks a lot of money I will pass on it. It usually means the moment for trading is wrong. The price will be better if I meet another civ. I don't have too much problem giving some change with the deal. I will buy workers if I can.
That's more or less what I've done so far. Just sharing experiences here.
Playing Emperor, with quite a few AI's on the same continent, starting with Alphabet (as the Indians do), I've always started researching Writing on 20%, knocking it down to 10% asap. In roughly 50% of the occasions the AI then beats me to writing. If I'm beaten to Writing, no worries, I often still know a few civs that don't have Writing yet where I can make some deals with. But if I've been beaten to writing, I always go straight on to Philosophy for the free tech. Then, even without going for Code of Laws first, I still often get beaten to Philosophy. If I'm the first to research Writing, and my early development went well, I'll try the Republic slingshot.
The tech pace is quite fast on Emperor if you put quite a few civs on the same continent. It slows down as soon as the Middle Ages come. I expect to be behind in tech before that, but in the Middle Ages it's quite easy to catch up.
The Great Library doesn't seem a necessity to me, but could be handy.
In the real early game I will almost always trade if I can, but if the AI asks a lot of money I will pass on it. It usually means the moment for trading is wrong. The price will be better if I meet another civ. I don't have too much problem giving some change with the deal. I will buy workers if I can.
That's more or less what I've done so far. Just sharing experiences here.
