Sgotm 01 - C F R

[Ptitsa Consul]

Hi all!

My report starts.

First of all I answer to Dinamic's quote

Don't forget set 3-d citizen on Flood Plain first then, 1 turn before Warrior 3 - on Cow.

When our city grow up to size 3, I try to place new citizen on different tiles, and I think, that 3 additional hummers (and Warrior-3 on one turn early) are more important then 1 additional beaker+3 food. On my silly mind we can begin settler earlier -> founded new city earlier ...

Next time, my Warrior-2 (South Warrior) was teleported, but when we discower Writing he go to russian borders again.

North Warrior (Warrior-1) went north side of our 'island' - I saw ices here. And we have not way to east in nothern side.

Now I make turn 6 - year 2800. We build Warrior-3. I start to produce Settler.
I think, that Warrior-3 stay home.

Game stopped, but not unloaded. If our command have some tips for me I'm ready to read it now...

My first turns was:
2950BC (1) - Worker start pasture, north Warrior (renamed to Warrior-1 or W1) move across coast
2920BC (2) - W1 killed 'wild animal' - wolf.
2860BC (4) - Russian borders expanded annd south Warrior (renamed to Warrior-2 or W2) was teleported to 4SW+1S from Thebes. Near Thebes are 2 russian Scouts.
2830BC (5) - Our borders expanded, size of Thebes is 3, one turn to Warrior-3
2800BC (6) - Warrior-3 ready in Thebes, all citizens are working at floodplains, Settler - 22 turns...

//Wait replies

PS
Here our north side

 

[Obormot]

Just play on as you like. We discussed the most important points already IMHO and stopping every time just to discuss about micromanaging 3 hammers is not a good idea. Later in the game we'll only discuss strategy and all the micromanagemnet should be done by the players themselves even if they play in the team with Dynamic himself Otherwise it is just not fun

 

[Ptitsa Consul]

So, let him do the thinking and calculating here and I'm sure everything will be just fine.

I can't calculate My playing style not mathematical, but 'mystical' - I sence that 'that will be not OK' and stop my action. Thats why I must clearly understand my target.

Otherwise it is just not fun

Good. This is just a game!

stopping every time just to discuss about micromanaging 3 hammers is not a good idea

3 hummers was 2 turns ago - I discuss not about this - it was my own will

 

[Ptitsa Consul]

Thats all!

I discower all island - on it only we and russians.
At last turn (22 - sorry, but I want to see landform of our island) Thebes build Settler - not moved! Our Warrior-1 killed a Lion and level-up, but I not promote him!
Our best enemy H.C. was found Hinduism.
I built one more cottage, road between rivers and start to build new pasture on north cows.

Log of my game (part 2)
2770BC (7) - Pasture has done! Switch to it third citizen in Thebes - Settler - 15 turns. Start to build cottage N from pasture. One our cottage grow up to hemlet
2680BC (10) - Our W2 went to russians borders. I saw that russian Settler and one archer go north.
2650BC (11) - Writing -> Mysticism. Open borderd to russians. W1 go to second city place. W2 go to Moscow.
2620BC-2590BC (12-13) Far-far away Huayna Capac discover and convert to Hinduism.
2530BC-2500BC (15-16) - Move Worker and start a road between rivers on 1N2W from Thebes. I risk to move W1 on plain nearby wild Lion. Evil animal attaked him and die. W1 was level-up. Move him in forest - to heal his wounds.
2420BC (17) - Most advansed civs: 1st - Catherine, 2nd - H.C., we are 7th.
2440BC (18) - Mysticism -> Meditation.
2380BC-2320BC (20-22) - Move Worker and start a pasture. W2 went southern side of our island. IMHO - only russians are near us.

Here our southern side

Save

 

[Lexad]

Super! But still have to check SW of Russians, there is some land.

 

[akots]

Looks good!

IMHO, we got to kill Peter and capture Moscow the sooner the better. He will not be a trade partner and the land will not be developed well since AI cannot handle that.

Now, the most critical part is to get to CS early or so it seems.

Witan is UP.

 

[Obormot]

Its not Peter, its Catherine. Of course we need to kill them, but we also need to build at least 2 wonders settle more cities, build a library in the capital and lots of othr things. I agree with Dynamic that an ultra early rush will hamr us more then it would help us.

OK, for now we basicly need to decide where to found our next city. It seems that everubody wants to build it 1SE of the horses, but i had a look at the save and i disagree. As i said already we need to have some overlap between our first ring cities and the capital, because we want lots of developed cottages in the capital eventually and we can't work them all now because of happiness issues and because we also need to work hills at some point to build scientific improvements.

So here is a dotmap that tries to maximise that. Blue dot should be founded first. The disadvantage is that we'll have 3 green faces there because of floodplains.

 

[Lexad]

Black and purple are excellent, but maybe put Blue 1 more North - do we really need that much overlapping for cottages? The capital still gonna work itself at least 3, so we can relax overlapping for 1 city. We'll get better health, more workable tiles for 2 cities as a sum, and great production potential for the North city (2 cows, horse, 4 hills... 1 more floodplain ) Considering the black city, the blue adds just 1 overlapping with capital (in the shrt run 2 when ther's no black city - but no cottages in the overlapping also)
Orange city fights too much for the land with capital and Blue. If we put it NW from stone, it will work 3 overlapping cottages (1 is plains later), grabs the fish and in addition get much grassland and cow.

As for war timing, I came to agree with the Great Ones that it will harm us more. The basic effect is delaying Oracle - we won't build him in the capital for not to dilute early GP genetics. And our economy is much more reliable on Oracle (=bureaucracy=supercapital) than on extra gem mine, and is less risky. Russians will have fast iron working to remove jungle (Ptitsa Consul said settler went North, and we can see its borders). This means we need macemen from the start (unless they don't have metals), but in the end get already cultivated land and a couple more cities. And a couple of techs, I think.

 

[akots]

I do diagree both Obormot's suggested city placement up north (imho SE of horses is a good spot) and I think that early war is required for us on this map. Russian lands are too good to miss and we have to grab them early, indeed as early as possible. If we can do it with macemen, it is fine. If we still don't have macement, chariots/axemen will be good enough.

CS is important and getting there is important but it is not as important as getting Russian lands. The maintenance cost on Monarch is moderate and we can handle that with a few cottages. There is little threat to science here.

If we were playing for score, as I again would emphasize, that would not be a way to go. But we are not playing for score here, so it is OK to do that since we don't need too many farms and huge population growth here at any cost. We just need lots of productive cities and some good units to take over the world. Grenadiers might be Ok or might be we can do it with macemen. This is not a space race and research and military build up should go hand in hand. If research is too rapid and we don't have enough resources (land === resources in Civ4), we won't be able to keep our productivity in line with research.

Now, a few things about maintenance. The more cities we have, the more cottages we can build, the higher is our income. So, an important thing will be to balance expansion with city growth, productivity, and research.

The way you are suggesting to place the cities here will give us good research but will alter the balance between productivity and growth. And this does not look good for me.

I'm still not sure we need galleons here as well. That mountain ridge near the shore to the west looks like it had been placed by mapmaker/scenario creator to prevent artificially sea travel to the west which might as well be possible by galleys if we are able to place a city right there and to grow culture strong enough to enable that travel.

 

[Dynamic]

Hi all!
1) When our city grow up to size 3, I try to place new citizen on different tiles, and I think, that 3 additional hummers (and Warrior-3 on one turn early) are more important then 1 additional beaker+3 food. On my silly mind we can begin settler earlier -> founded new city earlier ...

2) Next time, my Warrior-2 (South Warrior) was teleported, but when we discower Writing he go to russian borders again.
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1) You can play as you decide, I only gave advice. Finnaly you win 5 hammers but lost 8 foods and 2 beakers (don't forget about coefficients). In your case Settler was built at the same turn as in my, but now Thebes will grow 2 turns later. I noted twice, but not successfully, we can use Pasture 1 turn earlyer then Worker end his work and is ready for next job. So, we just lost production...

2) Of course, it isn't critical, but I also wrote about teleportation...

Witan usually hasn't internet connection on weekend.

 

[Dynamic]

If we found 3 cities, 2 of them will have very small production. And don't foget about maintenance. Sometimes better lost some tiles, but got more powerfull cities with less cost.

OK, may be 3 cities is good idea but I think we must found second city SE from Horse - this is great place for the future aspecially if we will need fast producing units for donination.
Now I think Russia will found her cities on our territiory so we will need a war after Oracle and Pyramids and will not have time for 3-d Settler.

 

[Lexad]

Russia will go for Iron Working to clear jungle (2 gem mines is a prize enough), and it will take them less than us to finish the research. Chariots will do only if enemy has no metals - need to scout out.
In 1.61 comp defends more wisely - even at Noble level they have both archers and spearmen defending their cities. I fear if we don't start the chariot rush right after 2nd city is built, we must wait till macemen.

 

[Dynamic]

But if we will not build Oracle in time we will have serious problem with development... If Second city will produce Chariots Oracle must be built in Capital. But, in this case we delayed Settlers and Pyramids...

 

[Lexad]

I know, and we must consider all sides. Capturing Moscow soon will give you without settler a city with excellent location (ideal for cottages) + gem mine+cow+rice, all ready for use. And another city to the north of it.

We'll have to delay Oracle, this means later bureacracy and representation, that is less production and commerce in capital, less happiness (not tha important so early?) and science from specialists (if we want to put them early). Haven't compared the costs yet.

 

[Dynamic]

I Just tested a little bit. Oracle after Library in Capital will be bad. It spends very long time and we have to remove some citixens from Cottages to prevent overpopulation. Oracle delay sign that we could lost it at all.

P.S. If we will try early war we need Mining or Masonry istead of Code of Laws first.

 

[Dynamic]

And, if we will found second city north, the better way is move Warrior towards that place.

 

[Lexad]

I Just tested a little bit. Oracle after Library in Capital will be bad. It spends very long time and we have to remove some citixens from Cottages to prevent overpopulation. Oracle delay sign that we could lost it at all.

As I've said, I tend to agree on later warfare. But we should not expect to conquer Russia with chariots. The next unit dominating Russia is maceman.

And, if we will found second city north, the better way is move Warrior towards that place.

Agreed.

 

[Ptitsa Consul]

I noted twice, but not successfully, we can use Pasture 1 turn earlyer then Worker end his work and is ready for next job. So, we just lost production...

Yes, it was my mistake, yesterday I thought more time why your date of Settler completing and my is same. I understand it now! Unfortunately I teach by my own errors.

 

[Lexad]

No, Ptits, you've ruined the game. We won't forgive you ever.

 

[Obormot]

Building the Oracle early is a must IMHO. After it is complete we can proceed with building chariots and/or macemen. We risk loosing the Oracle AND loosing the Piramids if we delay it. Not to mention that the gain from Piramids and Oracle will be much greater then the gain from those 3 gem mines.

I understand that my blue dot city is a little weaker then 1SE of the horses, but it also gets both cows and 3 hills into it's radius, so it is a good enough production city. The main disadvantage of proposed 1SE city is that it only shares one plains tile with the capital. And we do need to share cottages between capital and first ring cities, this was already discussed a lot before, there is no need to repeat it. This is even more important if we won't be able to found many more cities early (because of building 2 wonders and because of the coming war.)