SGOTM 01 - Fifth Element
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Perugia
Prince
@Dolphan #399 - CS first of course I just wanted to be sure everyone in the team was aware. Thanks for the reminder about irrigation, I forgot about that.
@Groin_Apologist - You are up and it looks like we are heading to war with Cyrus as you had mentioned earlier as the best way of containing Gandhi. Unfortunately we probably won't be in a position for you to declare
as we're still mostly building infrastructure.
If you want to check in for some assessment like last time, publish a plan, I'm sure the team will oblige with comments, topics could be: Strategy, Great People, Research, Cities, Settler, Workers
The team has had quite some input on most of these recently though there is still scope for decisions to be made.
@Groin_Apologist - You are up and it looks like we are heading to war with Cyrus as you had mentioned earlier as the best way of containing Gandhi. Unfortunately we probably won't be in a position for you to declare
as we're still mostly building infrastructure.If you want to check in for some assessment like last time, publish a plan, I'm sure the team will oblige with comments, topics could be: Strategy, Great People, Research, Cities, Settler, Workers
The team has had quite some input on most of these recently though there is still scope for decisions to be made.
Groin_Apologist
Big Ten Apologist
Okay- I have the save. I will review the postings, do a pre-set assessment and be back soon with questions/discussion.
Groin_Apologist
Big Ten Apologist
We have 41 gold and the science slider is 60% (-1gold/turn)
Thebes (12) builds a courthouse in 8 ("science city")
Memphis (12) builds a market in 6 ("science city")
Heliopolis (7) builds a market in 3 ("production/science city")
Elephantine (8) builds a barracks in 4 ("production city")
Alexandria (6) builds courthouse in 10 ("science city")
Moscow (11) builds an Aqueduct in 6 ("production/science city")
Pi-Ramesses (3) builds a courthouse in 11 (? city)
On the Indo-Persian continent,
We have a settler and 2 chariots in the gap near the former barbarian city
We also have chariots in Persepolis and Gordium.
A work boat appears to be headed to Pasargadae
One Galley is headed to the eastern coast, the other is guarding the straits
Discussion points:
1.) First and foremost, I am assuming I am building a war machine, right? I am also assuming I am waiting for anything that has already been started, but then the order will be more or less barracks -> catapult/sword/axe. Any other non-wartime things that are a must? Do we need more galleys?
2.) if anyone has any strong feeling about what to do with any particular workers, let me know. I am thinking we want to hook up some of those sugars near Moscow.
3.) Best position to settle near Libyan... I was thinking 1NE of the iron.
4.) I like the idea of having great artists to culture-bomb our new cities on the new continent - how do I set cities up for that? [If I can do it, I love to culture-bomb a captured city on a new continent immediately out of unrest and then use a tandem great engineer to rush Versailles. Do to our widening tech gap, I doubt this is feasible, though. What do people think about putting the Forbidden City on this continent, or saving it for Huyana's home turf?]
5.) I am thinking that I would like to send the work boat to the SW corner of the new continent and then cancel our open borders to see if we can pull off that 'jump' someone was talking about. Its a long shot - but how cool would we be if it works?
thoughts? I am on-call tomorrow, but hopefully I can play sometime.
Thebes (12) builds a courthouse in 8 ("science city")
Memphis (12) builds a market in 6 ("science city")
Heliopolis (7) builds a market in 3 ("production/science city")
Elephantine (8) builds a barracks in 4 ("production city")
Alexandria (6) builds courthouse in 10 ("science city")
Moscow (11) builds an Aqueduct in 6 ("production/science city")
Pi-Ramesses (3) builds a courthouse in 11 (? city)
On the Indo-Persian continent,
We have a settler and 2 chariots in the gap near the former barbarian city
We also have chariots in Persepolis and Gordium.
A work boat appears to be headed to Pasargadae
One Galley is headed to the eastern coast, the other is guarding the straits
Discussion points:
1.) First and foremost, I am assuming I am building a war machine, right? I am also assuming I am waiting for anything that has already been started, but then the order will be more or less barracks -> catapult/sword/axe. Any other non-wartime things that are a must? Do we need more galleys?
2.) if anyone has any strong feeling about what to do with any particular workers, let me know. I am thinking we want to hook up some of those sugars near Moscow.
3.) Best position to settle near Libyan... I was thinking 1NE of the iron.
4.) I like the idea of having great artists to culture-bomb our new cities on the new continent - how do I set cities up for that? [If I can do it, I love to culture-bomb a captured city on a new continent immediately out of unrest and then use a tandem great engineer to rush Versailles. Do to our widening tech gap, I doubt this is feasible, though. What do people think about putting the Forbidden City on this continent, or saving it for Huyana's home turf?]
5.) I am thinking that I would like to send the work boat to the SW corner of the new continent and then cancel our open borders to see if we can pull off that 'jump' someone was talking about. Its a long shot - but how cool would we be if it works?
thoughts? I am on-call tomorrow, but hopefully I can play sometime.
@Groin Apologist
Moscow needs Barracks, Forge, and can use a Jewish Temple; I’d add a Forge to Elephantine after the Barracks; Thebes does not need a courthouse, but could use a Forge, etc. We already have the best manufacturing base on the planet, it seems, but 25% boost to military production is nice. The 10-12 turn delay before starting military buildup will be well compensated by faster production rates. We could have macemen in 20-22 turns.
If we have open borders with Gandhi, we might not need any more galleys, I think.
1NE of Iron for the new city is good.
The sugars near Moscow are not in the fat cross. There will be no value in hooking them up other than to trade. Is that what you have in mind?
Moscow needs Barracks, Forge, and can use a Jewish Temple; I’d add a Forge to Elephantine after the Barracks; Thebes does not need a courthouse, but could use a Forge, etc. We already have the best manufacturing base on the planet, it seems, but 25% boost to military production is nice. The 10-12 turn delay before starting military buildup will be well compensated by faster production rates. We could have macemen in 20-22 turns.
If we have open borders with Gandhi, we might not need any more galleys, I think.
1NE of Iron for the new city is good.
The sugars near Moscow are not in the fat cross. There will be no value in hooking them up other than to trade. Is that what you have in mind?
Merum
Permanent Jet Lag
One method we could use for speeding things along a bit is to go 15-20 turns per set during peacetime. Then, during war, we can drop back to ten, since wartime turns take longer.
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
Perugia
Prince
IMHO Pi-Ramesses would be another produciton city with 3 grassland hills to mine (see workers below).
I agree about your build plans. gskur is right that the courthouse in Thebes can be put on hold as there can't be much maintenance there to halve. We only need it to make up the required numbers of courthouses to build the Forbidden Palace. I agree with gskur about the general usefulness of forges but it's only worth building them anywhere that has 8 hammers or more basic production. They are also a problem anywhere that has unhealthiness unless there is loads of spare food.
Thebes definitely could do with a forge as it can then have an Engineer specialist to bring in more Great Engineer GPPs to add to those from the Hanging Gardens.
Workers. Find a suitable (nearest?) one to send to the other continent and mine the iron there which will greatly speed up its courthouse. 1NE of iron is good and linked to Persian and Indian trade networks so only military roads are neede.
Have a look inside our other cities and see if they are working any unimproved tiles or will do when they grow. Science cities can always do with more cottages, all cities benefit from mines. Science cities can afford to leave some mines unworked while they are growing or supporting specialists.
Production cities need enough food to work the mines and grow at the same time (+2 bonus food is ideal unless the city is limited).
Last time I looked there, Pi-Rameses had 3 forested hills and a worker in the area. The worker can go to each hill then chop and mine it. This will soon build up barracks/forge and any other needed infrastructure its a small city so would be good for catapult production.
Memphis would be a good city to try for a Great Artist that we can use to culture bomb. Convert as many citizens as you can into Artists (a Theatre is needed to do this). Memphis is ideal for this as the additional culture from the Artists will help Memphis border expand to eventually snag the silver in the ice cap. Once we have enough Theatres in other cities, Memphis could build our Globe Theatre to bring in even more artist GPPs, culture and remove all unhappiness there!
We should definitely build Forbidden Palace on the other continent but it night be best in the main Persian territory.
For the workboat jump scam to work there would have to be no neutral coast in the area - please check. We would also need to cancel with Cyrus first then Gandhi, otherwise the boat will jump to Libyan first. We could also do with some military on the way to our city on the new continent.
I'm all for increasing the number of turns that can be played - it might allow more focussed and therefore better play. But suggest the the extended turns were optional and if not played in one session the save should be uploaded to the server and a short log posted so everyone can have a peek and make comments.
If played in one session I would like to the log showing that the player has considered all aspects of the game. Unless the player is laboriously checking & logging everything every turn, one way of doing this might be to take stock not only before playing and after finishing but also at about 10 turns to ensure no useful trades have been missed or cities getting out of control etc etc.
I agree about your build plans. gskur is right that the courthouse in Thebes can be put on hold as there can't be much maintenance there to halve. We only need it to make up the required numbers of courthouses to build the Forbidden Palace. I agree with gskur about the general usefulness of forges but it's only worth building them anywhere that has 8 hammers or more basic production. They are also a problem anywhere that has unhealthiness unless there is loads of spare food.
Thebes definitely could do with a forge as it can then have an Engineer specialist to bring in more Great Engineer GPPs to add to those from the Hanging Gardens.
Workers. Find a suitable (nearest?) one to send to the other continent and mine the iron there which will greatly speed up its courthouse. 1NE of iron is good and linked to Persian and Indian trade networks so only military roads are neede.
Have a look inside our other cities and see if they are working any unimproved tiles or will do when they grow. Science cities can always do with more cottages, all cities benefit from mines. Science cities can afford to leave some mines unworked while they are growing or supporting specialists.
Production cities need enough food to work the mines and grow at the same time (+2 bonus food is ideal unless the city is limited).
Last time I looked there, Pi-Rameses had 3 forested hills and a worker in the area. The worker can go to each hill then chop and mine it. This will soon build up barracks/forge and any other needed infrastructure its a small city so would be good for catapult production.
Memphis would be a good city to try for a Great Artist that we can use to culture bomb. Convert as many citizens as you can into Artists (a Theatre is needed to do this). Memphis is ideal for this as the additional culture from the Artists will help Memphis border expand to eventually snag the silver in the ice cap. Once we have enough Theatres in other cities, Memphis could build our Globe Theatre to bring in even more artist GPPs, culture and remove all unhappiness there!
We should definitely build Forbidden Palace on the other continent but it night be best in the main Persian territory.
For the workboat jump scam to work there would have to be no neutral coast in the area - please check. We would also need to cancel with Cyrus first then Gandhi, otherwise the boat will jump to Libyan first. We could also do with some military on the way to our city on the new continent.
I'm all for increasing the number of turns that can be played - it might allow more focussed and therefore better play. But suggest the the extended turns were optional and if not played in one session the save should be uploaded to the server and a short log posted so everyone can have a peek and make comments.
If played in one session I would like to the log showing that the player has considered all aspects of the game. Unless the player is laboriously checking & logging everything every turn, one way of doing this might be to take stock not only before playing and after finishing but also at about 10 turns to ensure no useful trades have been missed or cities getting out of control etc etc.
Groin_Apologist
Big Ten Apologist
Hmmn... nothing much going on here. As always, I'm learning - so if you see a place where I should have micromanaged or something - let me know.
785 A forest grows near Memphis
Forge started in front of Courthouse in Thebes
Memphis employs two artists to increase chance of great artist
800 Byblos founded 1NE of iron on new continent
815
830 Elephantine complete Barracks- starts Forge
845 Hinduism spreads in Byblos
workboat heads toward SW corner of new continent (in case we want to try the 'jump' at some point - too many neutral ocean squares now
860 Pi-Ramesses expands
Zoroaster born in far-away land
galley starts to ferry worker to new continent
875 Memphis finshes market, starts forge
Cyrus adopts vassalage and hereditary rule (looks like he's got his longbows)
890 Kong Maio is built by Huayana
905 mine near pi-ramesses yields 44 hammers from forest
worker lands on new continent and heads toward Byblos
920 Alexandria finishes its courrthouse and starst barracks
ditto for Pi-Ramesses
Wow. I never even got to start building any catapults. Looks like we will need macemen for sure before going to war against the long bowmen. I had started two barracks on the last turn, but they can both be changed. Is it ALWAY better to build forges as early as possible?
I never made it to the sugars near moscow (though I did start to build some road in preparation for our wartime effort). So all we gain from plantations on the sugar outside the city square is something to trade (no health/happiness, etc.), even if its within our national borders?
Science continued to fluxuate between .50 and .60. Some money-saving impriovements were built, but we also founded a new city. We now have 55 gold at +1/turn. Civil Service in 2 turns.
785 A forest grows near Memphis
Forge started in front of Courthouse in Thebes
Memphis employs two artists to increase chance of great artist
800 Byblos founded 1NE of iron on new continent
815
830 Elephantine complete Barracks- starts Forge
845 Hinduism spreads in Byblos
workboat heads toward SW corner of new continent (in case we want to try the 'jump' at some point - too many neutral ocean squares now
860 Pi-Ramesses expands
Zoroaster born in far-away land
galley starts to ferry worker to new continent
875 Memphis finshes market, starts forge
Cyrus adopts vassalage and hereditary rule (looks like he's got his longbows)
890 Kong Maio is built by Huayana
905 mine near pi-ramesses yields 44 hammers from forest
worker lands on new continent and heads toward Byblos
920 Alexandria finishes its courrthouse and starst barracks
ditto for Pi-Ramesses
Wow. I never even got to start building any catapults. Looks like we will need macemen for sure before going to war against the long bowmen. I had started two barracks on the last turn, but they can both be changed. Is it ALWAY better to build forges as early as possible?
I never made it to the sugars near moscow (though I did start to build some road in preparation for our wartime effort). So all we gain from plantations on the sugar outside the city square is something to trade (no health/happiness, etc.), even if its within our national borders?
Science continued to fluxuate between .50 and .60. Some money-saving impriovements were built, but we also founded a new city. We now have 55 gold at +1/turn. Civil Service in 2 turns.
Attachments
Perugia
Prince
Just got your post before you uploaded the save. I should be able to look at it later but won't be playing tonight as England vs Sweden kicks off in 20 minutes.
edit I have the save now. That's what they call cross posting....
edit I have the save now. That's what they call cross posting....
Perugia
Prince
Byblos our new city looks like it is fighting against culture pressure, Gandhi's iron mine is down to 88% Indian. I will build a plantation on the dye as we are trading for dye at the moment from Gandhi for our horse.
Gandhi is willing to trade silk for our gems which I will probably take. He will also give wheat for sugar but that's not so good for us.
For some reason we are still buying Fish from Cyrus for Cows even though we now have our own fish connected. Cyrus is willing to buy the cows for 3 gold per turn instead which is better.
Cyrus does have Feudalism plus Optics & Polytheism and is willing to trade them with us but won't sell Optics for our Metal Casting. We have nothing to sell to Gandhi.
Gandhi is willing to trade silk for our gems which I will probably take. He will also give wheat for sugar but that's not so good for us.
For some reason we are still buying Fish from Cyrus for Cows even though we now have our own fish connected. Cyrus is willing to buy the cows for 3 gold per turn instead which is better.
Cyrus does have Feudalism plus Optics & Polytheism and is willing to trade them with us but won't sell Optics for our Metal Casting. We have nothing to sell to Gandhi.
Goodenuf
Warlord
Qwick Qwestion.
I understand the need of a courthouse in Byblos due to the high maintenance, but wouldn't it be better to build a theatre and library first to get the culture really pumping? Or are we waiting for a GA?
I understand the need of a courthouse in Byblos due to the high maintenance, but wouldn't it be better to build a theatre and library first to get the culture really pumping? Or are we waiting for a GA?
I spent some time looking at the save tonight, and we are not looking bad. Here are some thoughts:
1. We need to take out Cyrus as soon as we are ready. This means researching Machinery as soon as CS is done. Our cities are in a great pre-war mode at the moment building forges and barracks. As soon as these are complete, we should start building cats all the time. Once Mach is researched, we can switch to Macemen.
2. We only have 2 galleys and should build a couple more. The first Persian casualty should be Sidon. After it is captured (or even before if we enough units), we can use the galleys as bridges to the Persian mainland. Each galley will allow 2 units to cross per turn.
3. We have 2 powerhouse cities suffering from unhappiness - not a good thing. We can make them happy pretty easily by any of the following: a) a trade to Gandhi (silk for gems or sugar); b) by adding military units (archer only 3 turns); or c) by settling silver N of Thebes. I'm reluctant to do anything to aid Gandhi, so advocate building quick archers in those cities.
4. Babylos is in grave danger of flipping--it should be all culture all the time. Switch from Courthouse to Theatre, and MM citizen to work plains tile N of river. Growth will be slow, but it will be doomed without culture anyway. Have the worker who is heading its way build a watermill on this tile, then build farm on grassland tile along river. After theatre is built, work farm for growth. After farm, dyes and watermill are being worked, switch to Caste system and start enlisting artists as the city grows.
5. Religion: Buddhism will be our own religion soon, and to the extent possible while building for war, we should be spreading the religion in our civilization. It will also help us deal with unhappiness. Memphis is our only buddhist city. It should pump out a quick missionary (after the archer) and send it to one of our lesser production cities. That city should build a monastery and start pumping out missionaries.
I'm heading off to China on Sunday for a week, so am hoping I get a turn in before I leave. With a little luck, it will be
time
1. We need to take out Cyrus as soon as we are ready. This means researching Machinery as soon as CS is done. Our cities are in a great pre-war mode at the moment building forges and barracks. As soon as these are complete, we should start building cats all the time. Once Mach is researched, we can switch to Macemen.
2. We only have 2 galleys and should build a couple more. The first Persian casualty should be Sidon. After it is captured (or even before if we enough units), we can use the galleys as bridges to the Persian mainland. Each galley will allow 2 units to cross per turn.
3. We have 2 powerhouse cities suffering from unhappiness - not a good thing. We can make them happy pretty easily by any of the following: a) a trade to Gandhi (silk for gems or sugar); b) by adding military units (archer only 3 turns); or c) by settling silver N of Thebes. I'm reluctant to do anything to aid Gandhi, so advocate building quick archers in those cities.
4. Babylos is in grave danger of flipping--it should be all culture all the time. Switch from Courthouse to Theatre, and MM citizen to work plains tile N of river. Growth will be slow, but it will be doomed without culture anyway. Have the worker who is heading its way build a watermill on this tile, then build farm on grassland tile along river. After theatre is built, work farm for growth. After farm, dyes and watermill are being worked, switch to Caste system and start enlisting artists as the city grows.
5. Religion: Buddhism will be our own religion soon, and to the extent possible while building for war, we should be spreading the religion in our civilization. It will also help us deal with unhappiness. Memphis is our only buddhist city. It should pump out a quick missionary (after the archer) and send it to one of our lesser production cities. That city should build a monastery and start pumping out missionaries.
I'm heading off to China on Sunday for a week, so am hoping I get a turn in before I leave. With a little luck, it will be
time
Merum
Permanent Jet Lag
BrianS said:I'm heading off to China on Sunday for a week, so am hoping I get a turn in before I leave. With a little luck, it will be
You're going to China too? I'm in China now! Where are you going? When will you be here? I'm leaving on 27 June.
Perugia
Prince
@BrianS #414 
- you have managed so say in a few words virtually everything I was thinking myself when looking at the save.
To remove the unhappiness the powerhouse cities I will avoid helping Gandhi by trading and will use more MPs. I would prefer to hook up the dyes at Byblos before the farm so we cancel the deal with Gandhi.
I'm not so certain that Byblos is in such grave danger of flipping as it looks like it's converting adjacent tiles to Egyptian not the other way round. Nevertheless I still think culture should be a priority there, if only to weaken Gandhi so will park the courthouse.
No one has spread Buddhism yet even though quite a few of us have suggested it. I will.
@Goodenuf
You're right, at 6 Artist GPPs a turn in Memphis and 300 GPPs required, the GA is over 40 turns away so we need to at least begin culture pumping Byblos with a Theatre. The courthouse will just have to wait.
I intend to add a scientist or priest at Memphis and remove a scientist from Thebes so that Memphis gets to 300GPPs first with Thebes targeting the 450GPPs.
- you have managed so say in a few words virtually everything I was thinking myself when looking at the save. To remove the unhappiness the powerhouse cities I will avoid helping Gandhi by trading and will use more MPs. I would prefer to hook up the dyes at Byblos before the farm so we cancel the deal with Gandhi.
I'm not so certain that Byblos is in such grave danger of flipping as it looks like it's converting adjacent tiles to Egyptian not the other way round. Nevertheless I still think culture should be a priority there, if only to weaken Gandhi so will park the courthouse.
No one has spread Buddhism yet even though quite a few of us have suggested it. I will.
@Goodenuf
You're right, at 6 Artist GPPs a turn in Memphis and 300 GPPs required, the GA is over 40 turns away so we need to at least begin culture pumping Byblos with a Theatre. The courthouse will just have to wait.
I intend to add a scientist or priest at Memphis and remove a scientist from Thebes so that Memphis gets to 300GPPs first with Thebes targeting the 450GPPs.
Merum
Permanent Jet Lag
Since we need to build military anyway, using MPs for happiness is not necessarily a bad thing. Do cats count as MP? 
That way we can wait to build macemen instead of building older units.
I'm in line with the plan as outlined by BrianS and Perugia.
Sorry for the short post, but I'm late to my own birthday dinner. Happy birthday to me. See you guys later.
That way we can wait to build macemen instead of building older units.I'm in line with the plan as outlined by BrianS and Perugia.
Sorry for the short post, but I'm late to my own birthday dinner. Happy birthday to me. See you guys later.
Perugia
Prince
@ Merum. Yep - cats can be used as MPs so we should be building lots of them. However, there's no point in spending more that 25 hammers on a military unit that is destined to sit in one of our cities for the rest of the game. These guys may as well be cheap archers - but no more than one per city.
Our 35-40 hammer units could still be useful, there all better than archers in the field and have way more hammers invested in them. Chariots are good for scouting/exploring and make excellent flexible MPs due to the extra movement. Swords and Axes can be effective auxiliaries in the battle for Persia particularly any that pick up Medic promotions.
So I'll build some archers but not too many.
Our 35-40 hammer units could still be useful, there all better than archers in the field and have way more hammers invested in them. Chariots are good for scouting/exploring and make excellent flexible MPs due to the extra movement. Swords and Axes can be effective auxiliaries in the battle for Persia particularly any that pick up Medic promotions.
So I'll build some archers but not too many.
Similar threads
