SGOTM 01 - Peanut

[MailMan]

I think we consider building a settler out of Memphis to grab the calm/fish/7FP desert site east of the capital (4E 1S).
This is prime location for whipping and later on a GP farm or commerce city.

I am not sure we should do it right now, but this location should be prioritized soon.

 

[DaviddesJ]

I agree with a settler out of Memphis as soon as we have "enough" WCs. I just think we need to build a few WCs there first, because the sooner we rush Catherine, the easier it's going to be. (Hopefully, we'll capture a couple of workers, so we won't have to build as many of those.) Also, the fish/clam site is going to grow very fast, so it's not so essential to get it up and running right away---in particular, until we have some workers to prepare the tiles, it's not going to generate that much for the rest of our empire.

 

[ainwood]

Looks good. Warrior needs to get back to Memphis before it grows - they're unhappy.

Regarding war chariots - perhaps the non-promoted ones should try a bit of barb farming. For promotions, I think we should follow the combat line, not the flanking one. Would be nice to grab a medic promotion - maybe the one the just beat the barb? And protect that chariot. We should keep an eye on the russians hooking-up copper. I'd image that they will try to get a third city in the south, and then link them & hook-up copper. Maybe we should watch the copper in the north, and at the first sign of mining it - attack and nab the worker (they probably won't defend the workers this early in the game).

Maybe we should also position the warrior in the south near the other copper, to keep an eye on it - and pillage it (if required) once the war starts.

 

[Phabuk]

ok I've got the save.
I will play tonight or tommorrow night if you want to have more discussion. Let me know!

- I agree to built a settler in memphis after have built enough WC but the point is : How much ?
I would say we could wait for 9 rounds in order to build 3WCs in memphis and 4WCs in thebes. Then we 'll have 9 WCs, thebes still building WCs and memphis up to 4 peoples, ready to build a settler.

- concerning research: after fishing we should go to mathematics in order to chop the forest near thebes and build more WCs and it leads us to catapult.

- I will bring back the north warrior to memphis as we have no more unknown land to explore

- il will use the 2WCs to spy the russian country, no ?

If you agree with that I play tonight...

I posted just after ainwood...

I agree to look at the copper and attack at the first sign of mining!

 

[MailMan]

sound like a good plan.
Can we spare the worker to build a road toward Russia? it will speed up the reenforcement.

 

[Phabuk]

yes we could begin the road on the west tile near thebes, just after mining the stone

 

[DaviddesJ]

If you really want to build a road you should put it on the hill SW of Thebes, at least this will help speed units toward Catherine. A road W of Thebes won't really help at all. But still chopping and cottages seem much more important to me.

There's no way you're going to get Mathematics and build catapults and use them to attack Catherine, or use increased chops to make more units for the war. One way or the other, the war will be over long before that can happen---I don't think you're realizing that it's 25+ turns to Mathematics at our present research pace, because we haven't been building any cottages.

If there's someone to trade with, then Alphabet is going to get us more than Mathematics.

 

[DaviddesJ]

P.S. If you chop the tile due west of Thebes, this will also help WCs from Thebes move more quickly toward Catherine.

IMHO, it's important to pop rush something from Memphis (WC or settler) when it reaches size 4, the bonus production from rushing is worth more than the extra tile of production (as long as there is no unhappiness problem). Only issue is that when it re-grows to size 4 we can have a happiness problem, but this isn't a big deal (we can just let one person be unhappy for a few turns).

 

[civ_steve]

I agree with WCs in Memphis, followed by a Settler once we have enough WCs to take out Catherine. If we are targetting 8-9 WC to do the job, we can probably start the aggression with 6-7, and finish up the last 2 as St Pete's is falling. Definitely plan on pillaging her Bronze at the start of the campaign (if it's being worked, or has been). (I haven't reviewed the save yet, so I'm talking more from the discussion at this point).

Fishing sounds like a good choice. I would follow up with Alphabet, and use an extra WorkBoat to do some exploring. If we find someone by this method, Alphabet will come in handy, and we might choose to let Catherine live for 10 turns at the last minute, if we're about to learn Alpha and can get a Tech from her for peace (if!)

Using 2 WC's to spy land prior to attack is sound.

Once the war with Russia is in hand, we should switch to settling and cottage building.

Team Peanut is ahead in something!?! Nice! I agree, it is good to set ourselves apart from the other teams.

Good Luck, Phabuk!

 

[DaviddesJ]

Definitely plan on pillaging her Bronze at the start of the campaign (if it's being worked, or has been).

There are two copper tiles.

One is in the radius of St Petersburg; we don't need to pillage that one. We can park a unit on it, which keeps her from using the resource (I think), and then when we capture St Petersburg she'll no longer have access to copper from Moscow (with WCs, we should capture St Petersburg on the next turn after the one when we declare war). If we don't pillage it, we won't have to rebuild the mine.

Important to check whether putting a unit on the copper keeps her from using the resource. I know it does keep her from working the tile.

The other is in the south and not yet in her cultural borders. If she does build a city down there, we may have to pillage that tile, or park on it. (If she wants to send archers out to attack us, so much the better!)

 

[civ_steve]

Good. I also noticed that, by restricting the score list to the 'up to 1600 BC' time, we're leading in Total Score as well! (At least up to 1900 BC, and our slope is very positive)

 

[DaviddesJ]

Good. I also noticed that, by restricting the score list to the 'up to 1600 BC' time, we're leading in Total Score as well! (At least up to 1900 BC, and our slope is very positive)

Of course, now that I've handed off control, our standing will plummet.

 

[Phabuk]

Of course, now that I've handed off control, our standing will plummet.

ok I will try to do my best...

I agree for mathematics, i didn't notice that it was so long... i will go for alphabet

so:

- pop rush in memphis for a WC/settler (probably a WC)
- chop and road with the worker
- alphabet
- a bunch of WCs
- promotion, spying and mine control with the already existing warrior and WCs


I will play tomorrow during the day. You still have a chance to influence my decision....

 

[DaviddesJ]

If we are targetting 8-9 WC to do the job, we can probably start the aggression with 6-7, and finish up the last 2 as St Pete's is falling.

We might even attack earlier. If we have a chance to steal a worker near St Petersburg, I'd say we should seriously think about just going for it right away. On the minus side, once we attack she will start building more units, probably. On the plus side, once we're at war we can start putting units on all of her good tiles in order to seriously impair her productivity. (I'd avoid outright pillaging just because we will want to have the developed tiles to work---on the other hand, pillaging can generate gold to speed our research which does have value.) She isn't likely to have any units that are strong enough to attack us in the field. If she does move out of the cities to interfere with us, we may have the chance to pick off some of her units individually without the large defense bonuses.

 

[ainwood]

There are two copper tiles.

One is in the radius of St Petersburg; we don't need to pillage that one. We can park a unit on it, which keeps her from using the resource (I think), and then when we capture St Petersburg she'll no longer have access to copper from Moscow (with WCs, we should capture St Petersburg on the next turn after the one when we declare war). If we don't pillage it, we won't have to rebuild the mine.

Good point. A quick axeman or two might be useful in the war if we're stretched.

 

[MailMan]

I do not think that 6-7 chariots will do. I think we should have 8-9 ready to attack on the first city since the AI will probably have 3 archers ready for us which means at least 3-5 chariots killed/retreat

important note: in order to use the retreat ability of fast units, they must have spare movement points. i.e. they should not attack with the last movement point. (I am not sure that attacking a hill can produce retreat even on the first move - we need to check that).

few other notes:
- we can use the medic promotion after the first battle, so I suggest giving combat promotions to all units.
- I would raze St. Pete and move it 2N to the desert tile to grab the clams.
the new location will fit better with the current cities. (beside the fact that it will become production powerhouse!)

 

[DaviddesJ]

I do not think that 6-7 chariots will do. I think we should have 8-9 ready to attack on the first city since the AI will probably have 3 archers ready for us which means at least 3-5 chariots killed/retreat

I hope she'll only have 2 archers for St Petersburg. We'll see.

important note: in order to use the retreat ability of fast units, they must have spare movement points. i.e. they should not attack with the last movement point.

This is just not true. It doesn't matter how much movement you have used.

we can use the medic promotion after the first battle, so I suggest giving combat promotions to all units.

I would agree with giving Combat 1 to all WCs: it makes a big difference to their attack strength, while Flanking isn't such a help. And most units that reach 3rd level should get Combat 2. I don't know if we will want to make any Medic units at all. We may just rest in the city to heal (15 HP/turn during resistance, 20 HP/turn after resistance. Giving up a Combat 2 unit is a substantial sacrifice---I'd probably rather take an extra turn for healing, but have a stronger unit to attack with.)

I would raze St. Pete and move it 2N to the desert tile to grab the clams.

I strongly disagree that we can afford to raze Catherine's cities. Sure it would be nice if they were in better locations. But we're already behind on growth and it's going to take us a long time to generate enough settlers to populate the city sites we already have access to. Building even more settlers for Catherine's city sites, without her cities to pump them out, is going to slow us down enormously. I really strongly favor just using whatever cities we get, however we can.

 

[MailMan]

Re retreat: - I will test this issue tomorrow.

Re razing St. Pete: - After we kick Catherine ass off the island we must make sure that we use the most out of it. One important aspect of this is city locations. I think that we already compromised with 1 less good city location due to our second city, missing another one down south - especially with all the production it will give will hurt us greatly in the long run.

 

[Phabuk]

I have made 4 turns:

1870 BC: Nwarrior SE, Swarrior NE, WWC medic promotion and SW

1840 BC: science down to 90%, WC in thebes, WC near st peter, stone mining finished, worker SE

1810 BC: WC in memphis, I lead the WC towards the russian frontier, worker chop the forest west of thebes

1780 BC: fishing is finished, I go for alphabet but it is quite long (42 turns), perhaps we should try masonry.
There are 2 archer in moscou, one archer in st peter, one archer on the hill near St peter and 2 arch + 1 settler going down south.
Nwarrior fortify in memphis. Pop rush for WC.




We don't have enough WCs for the moment but soon we'll be able to attack St peter (only 2 archers).
It's clear she gonna found a city near the copper in the south, but we'll see with the warrior down there.
We have 4 WC (almost 6). I'll wait for 2 more and begin to attack. Tell me what you think about, i will play tonight the other turns

 

[MailMan]

6 WC should take out 2 archers without a problem. If we are sure that St. Pete has only 2 archers when we get 6 WC near it. I suggest attacking.

After the war declaration, we can use the warrior to try and clear some archers by putting him on hill with forest/jungle cover (next to a city if possible).

good luck

Edit: the fact that Russia will have another city soon actually seems like a good thing for us:
- their forces will be spread across 3 cities instead of 2.
- the new city will not be able to produce much until we get there
- their capital produced settler instead of troops for the past few turns
- they saved us a settler