SGOTM 01 - Peanut

[DaviddesJ]

Re razing St. Pete: - After we kick Catherine ass off the island we must make sure that we use the most out of it.

Well, no we don't. There's a whole world out there, we can easily just expand onto other landmasses if we want. Our opponents are only at Monarch. Expanding quickly is much much more important than micro-optimizing placements.

I think that we already compromised with 1 less good city location due to our second city, missing another one down south - especially with all the production it will give will hurt us greatly in the long run.

We aren't in it for the long run. The game objective is rapid domination. If we grow and expand fast, we'll dominate the whole world long before we fully develop the lands that we have. I think (as with the previous city placement discussion) that you're much too concerned with the long run, while the short run is really much more important. E.g., in the short run, we can use the existing St Petersburg with the gems to greatly accelerate our research, we get to Alphabet several turns sooner, we get to trade for more stuff with other civs (assuming we meet them across the water), the whole rest of the game is accelerated by several turns. This is more important than whether any particular city is more or less productive 100 turns from now (it will probably take 50 turns from now to rebuild St Petersburg if we raze it, and another 50 turns for it to grow to be significantly productive---plus we also need to create another new city to work the gems).

 

[DaviddesJ]

WWC medic promotion

Big mistake.

Combat 2 makes a big difference in defeating the archers.

 

[DaviddesJ]

After the war declaration, we can use the warrior to try and clear some archers by putting him on hill with forest/jungle cover (next to a city if possible).

Yes, good idea. Ideally with a war chariot nearby so that if we lure an archer out to attack, and it does win, we can counterattack it ourselves and not have to kill it inside a city.

the fact that Russia will have another city soon actually seems like a good thing for us:
- their forces will be spread across 3 cities instead of 2.
- the new city will not be able to produce much until we get there
- their capital produced settler instead of troops for the past few turns
- they saved us a settler

Yes, I agree. Unless we raze it. Or unless she connects copper and builds spearmen.

 

[Phabuk]

Here is the log. Please excuse my poor english... I'm french



1870 BC: Nwarrior SE, Swarrior NE, WWC medic promotion and SW

1840 BC: science down to 90%, WC in thebes, WC near st peter, stone mining finished, worker SE

1810 BC: WC in memphis, I lead the WC towards the russian frontier, worker chop the forest west of thebes

1780 BC: fishing is finished, I go for alphabet but it is quite long (42 turns), perhaps we should try masonry.
There are 2 archer in moscou, one archer in st peter, one archer on the hill near St peter and 2 arch + 1 settler going down south.
Nwarrior fortify in memphis. Pop rush for WC.

1750 BC: 2 new WCs, one combat promotion, I send all the WCs to the hills near St peter

1720 BC: not so much, russia wants to found a city in the south

1690 BC: one WC finished in memphis, forest chopped in thebes

1660 BC: one WC in thebes (combat 1), worker builds a road (west thebes), we have 8 (soon 10) WCs, Swarrior follows the russian settler

1630 BC: Swarrior attacked by barb, he is now weak so as I declare war to russia I prefer take him far from the russian archers. war is declared!

1600 BC: St peter is now egyptian ! we lost one WC in the battle... and we lost one more WC to kill an archer hiding in the hills near St peter

sum up:

St petersbourg has fallen and we lost 2 WCs in the battle, 4 are controlling the city and 3 are arriving in reinforcement. construction in the cities was only focused on WCs. The Swarrior is feeling very lonely and weak...

The save:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Peanut_SG001_BC1600_01.Civ4SavedGame

If you look at the graph for 1600 BC we are in first position, really above the second!!!

 

[DaviddesJ]

Hmm. I forgot that we won't be able to use the gems near St Petersburg until we get Iron Working. I hope we'll meet someone and be able to trade for that when we get Alphabet. I have to admit this is a pretty bad city location---maybe I shouldn't have argued for keeping it. We could probably arrange to lose it to barbs, if we really want to.

We still have a good city site 3N 1E from St Petersburg (I think this is better than settling on the desert, anyway, as we get an extra hammer from the plains hill). But St Petersburg does interfere with using the sugar northeast of Moscow: I wish we could build a city 3N of Moscow, to work 2 sugar and 2 gems.

We should bump up research to 100%, now that we have money.

I think the current WC should be the last one in Memphis. Next turn we should switch to Settler. If we put in 8 turns of production, then on the 9th turn (10 from now) we'll be able to finish it off with a pop rush (just when the unhappiness from our last pop rush wears off).

I'd like to also switch to settler in Thebes, after the current build completes. (I'm assuming/hoping we will capture a couple of Russian workers, so we don't need to build those right away.) But it's possible we should build another WC, to be safe.

Tactically, against Catherine, we should quickly move to put our units on her improved tiles, to keep her from working them, thus slowing her construction of defenders. Even though it will take a few more turns to bring up all of our forces for the mass attack on the capital. (But don't pillage, I think, because we can use the improvements ourselves.) If we draw her out of the city, so much the better. We need to keep enough units around so that, if she does attack out, we can counterattack and finish any wounded units. Getting her to attack us is good (much easier to kill archers that way than if they are defending), so we should put single WCs near her capital to entice her.

See attached screenshot for some ideas for city sites. Some of these only make sense when we get Iron Working and/or Calendar. If we build two cities soon, then #1 should obviously be one; where should we put the other? I lean toward #4, but not strongly.

 

[DaviddesJ]

we lost one more WC to kill an archer hiding in the hills near St peter

I don't think this was worth losing a WC. You could have just let him sit there. Either he'll move into more favorable territory, where we can attack him, or else he'll attack us, without his terrain bonus.

Edit: Maybe it's unrealistic to hope for it to move into better terrain, since it defends the same in forest, hills, or jungle, and we'd probably end up having to attack it in one of those. I still would have tried to lure it into doing something stupid, though. And we will have a Combat 2 WC soon, which has a much better chance to kill it without dying.

 

[Phabuk]

I wont be there for the next 3 days

 

[DaviddesJ]

See attached screenshot for some ideas for city sites. Some of these only make sense when we get Iron Working and/or Calendar. If we build two cities soon, then #1 should obviously be one; where should we put the other? I lean toward #4, but not strongly.

On reflection, I do think #1 and #4 are the best choices for right now. One thing that's good about these two sites is that they don't require much worker manpower, at least at first. The top priority for both is to generate workboats. Site #4 can work the stone hill to make a workboat very quickly. Site #1 can work the floodplains farm and then pop rush a workboat when it reaches size 2 (and get a good start on a 2nd). We'll want our worker to build a pasture for the cow SW of #4, but otherwise, we can concentrate on other priorities, like cottaging around Thebes and Memphis, perhaps some chopping, and perhaps some roads.

We need to figure out how to connect our cities together, especially so that we can get +1 happiness for the gems (and eventually the silver). There are two possibilities: by land or by sea. To connect by land, we would have to build quite a few roads, but those roads will continue to be useful throughout the game. To connect by sea, we need to (1) research Sailing, and (2) explore a coastal route from the north to the south. Unfortunately, the mountains are (intentionally?) arranged to make this difficult. If we can build a coastal city at #7, then we have a coastal connection from #4 to #7 as soon as we research (or trade for) Sailing.

 

[civ_steve]

First travel and then work has been crazy this week! But we appear to have cycled around and it's back to me.

Good job by the way, Phabuk! Nice to see a Russian city in our column, and I certainly hope we can count Moscow as well after my turn set. (And your English is far superior to my French!)

I haven't looked at the save and it's rather late right now. I'll look tomorrow and post questions later. (and get caught up)

I like and will have to try some of your ideas to bait the AI into attacking, DaviddesJ. Far better for them to come out then to beat their door in, although either way, Catherine is in trouble.

 

[MailMan]

nice going!

For some reason Memphis is working a unimproved plains instead of the horses!

We currently have 7WC, 1 due next turn (after the MM of memphis) and another next turn. I think we should only build 2 additonal WC (1 from each city). 11 WC will be enough to handle russia as well as being police later on.

 

[DaviddesJ]

For some reason Memphis is working a unimproved plains instead of the horses!

It's not for me---when I load the 1600BC save, Memphis is working the 2 cows and horse. Maybe you accidentally changed it after loading the save?

We currently have 7WC, 1 due next turn (after the MM of memphis) and another next turn. I think we should only build 2 additonal WC (1 from each city).

I think 9 is enough---i.e., just the ones in production. We can mass all 9 to attack Moscow within 8 turns; I think that will be enough to take it---although I still wish we had that combat 2 WC, instead of the Medic. Even if the remaining ones aren't enough to take Novgorod right away, we don't care that much. Novgorod isn't so valuable, it shouldn't be hard to take Novgorod because it doesn't have a terrain bonus, we want to wait for it to reach size 2 anyway, and our victorious troops from Moscow, after healing up, will be higher levels.

Of course, if we attack and fail, that's really bad. But waiting for 11 WCs will take 4 more turns---is that really worth it? We may be facing an additional defender by that time, anyway.

Getting two settlers under construction quickly will help us a lot, I think. Admittedly, our maintenance will be high, with so many cities, but we can also quickly produce quite a bit of commerce, particularly if our worker (and any we capture from Catherine) start cottaging.

We do want to send some WCs into Russian territory quickly to prevent the Novgorod troops from reinforcing Moscow. (If we seem to be threatening Novgorod, Catherine will probably leave some there, and if she does try to move troops back toward Moscow, we can intercept them and fight them in the field.) As well as, perhaps, luring some of Catherine's home defense out of her capital, although I don't know if we can really hope to succeed at that. But the AI makes unpredictable decisions about when to attack and when to stay put.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Looking at the Power graphs through 1000 BC, I'd say that there are some other teams pursuing a similar buildup to ours, but several turns delayed behind us.

I do think we have a good start, unless we blow out in the attack on Moscow (which, unfortunately, is a real possibility---I think we'll have something like a 90% chance to take it, but there's always that other 10%).

 

[DaviddesJ]

It's pretty scary to see how many hammers Catherine has in Moscow. With Monarch handicaps, she can produce archers with her one city faster than we can produce war chariots with two. We need to push to attack sooner rather than later, or we're just falling behind as she builds up. We also need to park units on her mines, and particularly the cow pasture, to reduce her production.

I'm starting to think we aren't actually going to prevail in this war. A better way to have pursued it would have been to mass for an attack on Moscow first (gathering our troops 2 moves away before declaring war), and then take St Petersburg and Novgorod at our leisure, with their smaller production and lesser defenses. At this point we should try really hard to lure her to attack out. We'll lose WCs if she does, but less than if we have to attack in.

There's a war chariot sitting in St Petersburg with 2 movement left---I think this guy should be pushing ahead into her territory. Sadly, this is the unit that has the Medic promotion instead of Combat 2. And quelling resistance in St Petersburg would also be nice. But we can't really do everything we want.

It's too bad our warrior got caught by the barbarian, he could be doing useful stuff if he were better positioned. I don't think there's anything for him to do now except hide out and perhaps keep some of Catherine's troops distracted (if she doesn't just come out to kill him).

Another reason to move the Medic into Catherine's territory this turn, is that we'll get a view of Moscow next turn, and be able to see how strong her defense is.

 

[Keith Larson]

Just to let eveyone know I am back in town. I have a tree to remove from my back yard today. I plan to participate in a more meaniful way tommorrow or Monday.

 

[DaviddesJ]

We are waiting for civ_steve, right?

 

[civ_steve]

Yes. Sorry for the delay (tough week at work!)

I've loaded the save, and pushed the Medic WC forward in 1600, and as first thing in 1570, placed it next to Moscow (in woods). There are 2 Archers (no promotions) and a Worker in Moscow.

Memphis finished a WC, and I've switched it to Settler. Next person can determine which City site to found at. With only 2 current defenders in Moscow, I plan to switch Thebes to Settler as well.

I'll finish playing in the next 8 hours or so (well, by the end of tonight). I'll check here first if there's any other suggestions.

 

[DaviddesJ]

I've loaded the save, and pushed the Medic WC forward in 1600, and as first thing in 1570, placed it next to Moscow (in woods). There are 2 Archers (no promotions) and a Worker in Moscow.

Why are you in the woods? On the hill would be better, because you could block the cows next turn, which is her best tile. From the woods you're out of range for the cows. WCs don't get a defensive bonus from terrain (and you wouldn't need it anyway---if you can get her to attack out, it's a win regardless).

I'm honestly not sure whether you're better off attacking with the WCs you have, or waiting for the last 2. One extra archer for her is worth more than 2 extra WCs for us, so, if you can bring all of your units fully healed against Moscow with just 2 archers, it may be right to go for it. On the other hand, I have no certainty she'll build a third archer, or that it will stay put and she won't get aggressive with it if she does.

Things to work on now include: (1) blocking off her good tiles, especially the cows (and the rice when you can get there) because without food she can't work many mines, (2) trying to lure her to attack out of Moscow, (3) making sure your injured units all get fully healed, (4) coordinating your movement so that when the last WCs do arrive, all of the other units are ready to attack that turn, which will require pulling some of them back off of her production tiles, and (5) quelling resistance in St Petersburg. From my (limited) experience, I think you won't lure her out when she has only two archers, but if she builds a third archer it may venture out to try to clear one of the tiles. So if she builds a third archer right on the turn when you are all set to attack, you might want to wait one more turn (she can't build another archer in a single turn) to see if she comes out. For healing your units, you can either rest them outside her territory, or you can move them in and aim to stack them with the Medic for a couple of turns. Also don't forget that promoting them will heal them somewhat---at this point, I think you only want Combat promotions.

I don't know if you have thought about what to build in St Petersburg, but I would tentatively suggest a workboat. Don't forget to order SP to build something before it exits resistance (otherwise you waste a turn of production).

Much is riding on whether you take Moscow!

 

[civ_steve]

Here is the results -

Turn 0 - 1600 BC
Move Medic WC S and S into Russian territory (Jungle-Gems)

Turn 1 - 1570 BC
Memphis completed WC - next Settler
Move Medic WC SE and SW to Forest NW of Moscow - 2 Archers defending, and a Worker in the city
Need minimum of 5-6 WCs to start assault, but with only 2 defenders, plan to sit on high production spaces
Warrior is at 0.5 hp; fortify until healed (in forest)
Give out 2 Combat II Promotions, advance WC's, 1 more into Russian Territory
Worker - let's road up to site 4 (for eventual coast connection); perhaps chop, then cottage around capital
Worker NE

Turn 2 - 1540 BC
WC in Thebes, next Settler; switch Plains/Forest to Floodplains for extra commerce
Grant Combat I to newly created WC, and send him to the front
2 More WC's enter Russian Territory
Occupy 2 mined Hills with 2 WC's already in Russian Territory, denying those 6 Hammers to Moscow
Worker starts Road

Turn 3 - 1510 BC
St Petersburg becomes usable - we'd like another Worker I believe; perhaps best to allow growth to Size2, allowing Pop-rush
(8 turns for growth), so let's put shields to something else - WorkBoat
One WC near St Pete's is all healed up; it moves up and Another WC enter's Russian Territory
4 Mined Hills are now Occupied (12 hammers denied to Moscow)

(IBT another dot shows up in Moscow's Unit list - they built a ... Settler!!)

Turn 4 - 1480 BC
Another WC finishes healing in St Pete's; it and another WC enter Russian Territory
Russian Cows are now Occupied
We have 7 WC's around Moscow
figure their Archers are at +50 (archer in city), +25 (archer on hills), +25 (hills), +25 (fortified), +40 (Moscow bonus); 7.95
It will be bloody, but 7 WC's should have a good chance;
Moscow is size 4, so she pop-rushed to produce the Settler
Moscow generates 5 Hammers/turn max (right now); 37 Hammers for Archer; no telling the Carryover, or if there were pre-build hammers
Probably best not to wait 4 turns for the last 2 WC's to arrive and risk a 3rd Archer

Turn 5 - 1450 BC
Worker finishes Road; NW to chop Forest at site 4
Move WC's into Attack positions

Turn 6 - 1420 BC
Moment of truth has arrived!
Send in first Archer fodder (no cannons around ), a 1 xp WC - combat odds 4.5% (yuck!) he dies,taking Archer to 2.5
2nd WC, no xp - wow! retreats, and takes 2nd Archer down to 1.6 (way to go!!!)
With 2 Combat II's, 2 Combat I's and the medic, odd's for a Combat II are 42.7% vs the 2.5 Archer (Combat I is 37.4%)
I decide to risk a Combat II, because if he loses, I'll probably get to promote a Combat I
3rd WC, 6 xp, charges and ... dies (taking Archer to 0.9)
4th WC, 9 xp, (88%) charges and ... bye bye Archer! WC gets 2 xp (11) and takes no damage!
5th WC, 4 xp, charges and takes the city! Moscow is ours and 2 Workers captured.
Decide to set Moscow's production to Library; I'll chop a forest and connect Gems with the Workers
Place Medic in Moscow
Advance 7th WC towards Novgorod
Move up 2 WCs just arriving
Start Chopping at site4

Turn 7 - 1390 BC
Give Combat II promotion to WC that captured Moscow
Give Combat III promotion to other winning WC
Start Chopping near Moscow
Advance 4 WC's toward Novgorod; move 2 to heal with Medic at Moscow
Novgorod's border expands, catching Warrior; let's move him next to Nov.
Catherine has 2 Archer (1 with Combat 1) defenders, let's see if one wants to attack the Warrior (WC is in range to counter)

Turn 8 - 1360 BC
No dice; Nov's Archers are at +50 (archer in city), +25 (fortified), +20 (city) = 5.9, not bad odds, but it's size 1
Not sure if it will implode, even with expanded culture; wait unit size 2, I guess

(IBT Confucianism is founded in a far off land)

Turn 9 - 1330 BC
Forest cleared near Moscow, start on Road
Move healed 5th WC towards Nov
Pop-rush in both Thebes and Memphis

(IBT Inca convert to Confucianism)

Turn 10 - 1300 BC
Thebes and Memphis complete Settlers and start on Libraries
Moscow is now out of resistance; One of it's 3 pop points is angry and not in use
Thebe's Settler starts heading towards site 7, or somewhere along the way to Russia
Site 4 is cleared by Worker
I'll leave Memphis' settler to the next player, so the team can decide on these 2 city placements
Send Medic WC up North to provide some cover to Settler if needed
Reduced Defenses of Novgorod probably only need the 5 WC's around it to be taken

end of log

So in the end, it took 5 WCs to capture Moscow, with this set of events. One thing I noted in the notes the upload provided, attacking a unit the 2nd time in a turn gives it a -20% extra combat penaly - useful when attacking an already wounded unit.

I realize I should have not moved either Settler so we could decide what to do with them. I figure we want Libraries in general, so the shields will be useful, and we have enough growth to bump up into the Happiness issue, so Granaries didn't see to desirable.

Cleared the site 4 location figuring it was likely one of the two Settlers would go here. Not clear in CIV whether founding on a forest gives you the hammers for it, so these might be wasted moves for the Worker. Even if we didn't get the Shields, it might have been better to be cottaging Thebes, which with Catherine pretty much in hand, it is time to get our Commerce up.

At 100% we are losing 14 gpt, with 79 in the bank. Peace will help a bit, but we definitely want to gain control of our economy.

Does Novgorod need to be size 2 to be captured? Do we want to capture it with the red ink we currently have? I also think its using a coast space, so it will take a long time to reach size 2 (one of the coast tiles is showing 3 coins).

(BTW DaviddesJ, with 2 Shields being generated by the Cattle, why deny that space instead of a mine generating 3? The forest I moved to allowed me to move on to the Mine SW W of Moscow the next turn)

1300 BC Save

 

[MailMan]

Great turn set!!

The AI can be really stupid in building a settler when his capital is under attack.

Re forest chopping in city tile: - chopping before settling is a good idea. founding a city on forest just waste the forest.

Re capturing Novogaurd - I am not sure, but I thing a city can be kept if one of the following occur:
1. the city is above size 1
2. the city culture has expanded its borders
3. the city was once held by the owner

 

[civ_steve]

That's sounds exactly like Civ3, which made me suspicious.

If Novgarod was founded about 14 turns ago (1720 BC?) and Catherine's been using a Grassland, it should be just about time to become size2. If she's using a 1 food tile, it would be another 16 turns or so. It has culturally expanded already; the 5 WC's around it are fortified so they haven't moved yet this turn, and can be moved within attack range.