SGOTM 01 - V Q

[GreyFox]

Geez, I haven't even wake up and we are heading towards page 2 already.

I say all these are speculations. More land need to be revealed before we know what techs are more appropriate. From face value, agree with settling 1S, but my reasons is exactly opposite to Maquis: not for the production hills, but for the cows. There are ample hills in the Big Fat Cross (actually, I don't understand why people call it the Big Fat T. Because it is not a Big T, its a cross. If you want to call it T, you'll have to call it a Small Fat 't' ... ) if we settled right where the settler is. So the only reason why you want to move down south and lose the fresh water is to get the cows.

Tech-wise, since we don't start with Mystic, we have no choice but to go for the later religion. Agree with ChrTh on going Mining first, then Masonry, Mysticism, Polythesim and then Monotheism. We would most likely miss Hinduism. We may want to go for the Animal Husbandry before Polythesim, once we are working on the worker. Why?

As oppsed to Maquis, I am a huge fan of cows. Yes, we have hills. But the problem of hills is it is not self-supporting. You sacrifice early growth (which the single most critical factor in deciding your game) by trying to work on the hills. Whereas the cows allow you to get ample hammers and still have +1 surplus food which is extremely important. I couldn't stress the importance of early growth enough. And remember, earlier on, the main production hog is not the buildings, it is actually worker and settlers, which means hammer is not the only production determination factor. You can produce a settler faster with 10F2H than someone with 4F6H.

We could go for the Oracle, but CS-Slingshot is close to impossible on Monarch. Or at least, i have never managed to do that on Monarch. I say if we go for Oracle, our reason is simply for denial purposes (plus the GProphet points), rather than attempting the CS Slingshot. I was never a huge fan of CS-Slingshot anyway.

What I am a fan of, is the Great Library push. I have never failed to get it if I am determined enough, even on emperor, with or withour marble. It will help to level the AI's research advantage.

--

 

[ChrTh]

Tech-wise, since we don't start with Mystic, we have no choice but to go for the later religion. --

had forgotten about that, even though I'd looked at the starting techs multiple times (now you know why I kept checking the victory conditions in VQ04 )

Geez, I haven't even wake up and we are heading towards page 2 already.

I'll be very disappointed if we're not on Page 10 before the game starts

 

[namliaM]

Is the river bonus to health cumulative? ... EDIT: I guess it doesn't matter because current location is next to fresh water too.

No it is not, you get 1 bonus of +2 for health from fresh water. Not +2 From the river and +2 from the lake....

Agreed. Hmm, perhaps we should farm a few of the flood plains so we can switch to GPP Factory if needed.

I never like much the idea of making the capital a GP farm... With the bonus of 8coins its much better suited for research...

I cannot check the game currently but what is up with Mass Media? UN?

3. Writing ( To get a library up and running. Once this is done I would suggest to build a library in the capital and then create 1 or 2 scientists to try to get a great scientist to create an academy)

I like getting the Great one in for getting some scientists... But dont know how viable that is on monarch... Never even played monarch...

While working on the Oracle, research Code of Laws and then use the free tech to discover Civil Service for macemen.

Is the CS sling viable on Monarch? Maybe we should be aiming CoL or Metal Casting for Oracle, if we get that at all.

the assumption that

assumption is the mother of all ??? Yeah...
But in this case you are right, we need to find out asap. This I also posted in the VQ thread...

1) We are on seperate continents, bad ...
2) Same continent and/or near position on a pangea like thing... Bad or good Depends... Not to close hopefully...
3) Islands or something... Allways in human favour...

Hmz... This didnt quite spell out the way I wanted it too... but yeah... we have the issue of either a verry early war, or a long and dragged out one...
Also we have the issue of possibly having to content with our 'brother' beeing (to) close

I do wonder if the incans will be far away. I think it would be just a little too hard on people if they were right next door and the Quechas start rushing in...

Dont forget we have fast and early UUs as well. This may just be the point of the assumed to be evil admins... Force us to find the horses asap and use our UU to good extend... The more I think about this the more I believe it...

In terms of religion, I'm thinking we should head towards Judaism, i.e. get Masonry first, then Polytheism, then Monotheism. We can get Animal Husbandry and Pottery at any point (i.e. I'm not saying we should beeline to mono)

If we do go 'hydra hunting' lets try and pick up Poly first...

So the only reason why you want to move down south and lose the fresh water is to get the cows.

River gives fresh water bonus too...

Sorry for all the quotes and probably a long post, but I had some catching up to do...

Just a thought... Settle 2 south? This way we max out the land usage in our current possition (visible tiles) maybe allowing for a second research center on the north river?

Thinking again... Yeah I am allmost convinced we will be using our early UU. Thus a priority on AH is needed... Both for the horses and the cows...

 

[GreyFox]

Go Hydra hunting? Fat hope! The only viable way of hydra hunting is if you start with Mystic and Mining.

As I mentioned, we need to go Mining (for Hills), Masonry (for Polytheism), Mysticism, Polytheism, Monthesim. Insert Ani-Hus anywhere in between when we start working on worker. Count ourselves lucky if we manange to get Judaism. I wouldn't even dream about Hinduis, not to say Hydra (a Hydra by definition, must be multi-headed).

After that, it pretty much up to debate. You can go for Hydra by pursuing Philosphy and Theology, but I thinks its not worth it.

Alternatively you could go then for BW, and IW, and Metal casting, the standard early path.

My favourite will be to go for the Literature Path, but that's just me.

But in any case, the path after Monothesism (that is, assuming this is what we want) is subject to how the land is explored, who are near us ... etc.

If it were up to me, I would ditch the idea of going religious and concenrtrate instead on the top and bottom branches of the research trees (i.e. the Lit. Path and the IW Path). But of-course, that's just me ...

 

[Maquis]

I was also thinking we could go grab Buddism or Hindu. For some reason I keep thinking spiritual = Mysticism.

I think that the path towards Monotheism is ok. If we miss Judism, we can go for the Oracle and take CoL. This also may be contingent whom we meet and what religion they have. I don't think we want to be a different religion early on with our peace partner. In this case I would go with GreyFox, and go toward Literature and IW...

Are we thinking 30-20-20 for # turns?

That would be fine, unless people want to start 30-25-25? With this being epic, those first 100 turns are going to CRAWL... (I'm not too worried about having even years on turnsets, it's hard in epic)

 

[bobrath]

I'm happy with any order of turns that makes us live up to out acronym - Very Quick. Part of the fun for me has been the pace at which our games tend to move - without a loss in quality. Of course I also appreciate not being next to that Nara loving GreyFox!

I'd like to be bold in our start. Bold, but not entirely foolish of course. Lets get our starting warrior out scouting. Sure if the Incas are right next door, we could be signing our death - unless we manage to find them first.

This map was custom created and not script generated, so toss out any preconceptions about starting crosses being loaded and key resources being in convienent locations. I'm liking founding 1S more and more. Founding there will give us a quick view of the surrounding south and free our warrior for northern exploration. It also lands us in a very nice defensive position - river on two sides to make attacks from the north take a penalty and a nice corridor to our cows that can be easily defended from pillagers.

I do think that Animal Husbandry has dual benefits for us. We can hook up cows and it will show us where Horses are. Since our UU is horse based, I'd like to have that option asap even if we're alone on an island. I don't have many thoughts beyond that for the tech tree. What you folks have discussed above does make sense tho.

Continuing the bold scenario - I'd think that getting another exploring warrior (or ideally a scout/war chariot) or two out in the world will be essential. It gives us the most information about the land and our nearby foes/friends. Where's the tradeoff between getting a worker out to farm up the river vs an exploratory unit? I'd say our starting build order would be warrior - worker - warrior.

Brought over from the sticky on the parent forum. Just be very sure to click only on our forum and don't get lazy and misclick into someone else's. I've also subscribed to this thread so that I can get the read of stuff in total saftey!

Note:
The rules state that you MAY NOT view the discussion threads of any team other than your own.

DO NOT jeopardise your teams chances by doing this. You risk disqualifying your entire team.

 

[ChrTh]

1S ... the problem with a custom-generated map is that I can't not think the worst of the moderators ... I mean, look at the the screenshot: if they gave us a horse, the most likely place is on that grassland 1W of the lake. Moving 1S, which looks best, would take the tile out of range for what, 50 turns? 250?

Obviously we shouldn't play based on my paranoia ... but it still bugs me.

As for the Hydra-hunting: maybe a later hydra is worth sorta-pursuing. CoL and Philosophy are both on the road to Communism, so even if we don't grab the religion, we wouldn't have hurt ourselves diverting from one of our goals. The advantage of controlling multiple religions is that it allows us to have some input in creating religious allies ...

 

[bobrath]

Hard staring at the map... there are hills west of that grassland. I think we can overanalyze ourselves to death and end up back where we started (which is having no clue!).

Given the map view only(ie no heinous designer and no civ4 automatic best starting position):
1) Can moving the warrior in any direction do anything to improve our information?
2) Is there a better spot then 1S that is foundable in the first turn?
3) Would delaying founding the city by one turn be worth it in terms of finding out a tad bit more?

 

[ChrTh]

1) Can moving the warrior in any direction do anything to improve our information?

Only if we don't want to settle the first turn

2) Is there a better spot then 1S that is foundable in the first turn?

Define 'better' ... if you wanted to make a pure research city, moving 1E is better ... but then Production would be lousy. I think 1S is probably the best 'well-rounded' city site.

3) Would delaying founding the city by one turn be worth it in terms of finding out a tad bit more?

And risk losing by 1 turn?!?! Never! ... seriously, I can't imagine there'd be a spot significantly better.

 

[bobrath]

I asked the third question only because a settler is the best scouting unit we have right now... Would moving 1SW take up both of our moves or could we go there and then head to the 1S spot if nothing better shows up?

 

[ChrTh]

PS I know I'm posting a lot, but that's just a function of not being in a lot of SGs right now ... please don't take anything I say as gospel, they're all suggestions, regardless of how authoritatively they're phrased.

 

[ChrTh]

I asked the third question only because a settler is the best scouting unit we have right now... Would moving 1SW take up both of our moves or could we go there and then head to the 1S spot if nothing better shows up?

Moving 1SW will use up the Settler's move for the turn.

EDIT: I think moving SW will only reveal 3 tiles we're already able to guess: the forest, the forested hill, and the grassland hill tiles NW, W, and SW of that hill.

 

[bobrath]

PS I know I'm posting a lot, but that's just a function of not being in a lot of SGs right now ... please don't take anything I say as gospel, they're all suggestions, regardless of how authoritatively they're phrased.

But with big words and a high post count.... all my interweb training says you must be the most smartest!

 

[ChrTh]

But with big words and a high post count.... all my interweb training says you must be the most smartest!

Yeah, keep thinking that newbie

 

[bobrath]

Moving 1SW will use up the Settler's move for the turn.

EDIT: I think moving SW will only reveal 3 tiles we're already able to guess: the forest, the forested hill, and the grassland hill tiles NW, W, and SW of that hill.

Since its a hill top tho... it would actually show us more then that due to the elevation bonus on line of sight. Its the river crossing that makes the move expensive. Too bad the map developers thougth of everything!

 

[ChrTh]

Since its a hill top tho... it would actually show us more then that due to the elevation bonus on line of sight. Its the river crossing that makes the move expensive. Too bad the map developers thougth of everything!

Even from a hilltop, forests and hills reduce your line of sight; if you look at the warrior in the start pic, he can't see the water tile east of him because another hill is in the way. Granted, we may be able to "guess" the tiles past the tiles on the west (just like we can guess the water tile), but wouldn't know about resources, etc. (by the same token, we would know the resources in the 3 'guessed' tiles if we moved SW ... but I'm thinking we shouldn't do it).

 

[Maquis]

The more I think about it, the more I have to agree with ChrTh: We're not going to have horses in our BFC... The SG jus seems to be set up so that there won't be any quick wins. I doubt they'd set it up so we can get our UU up right away and take out a neighbor so quickly.

I still think that 1S is the best to go. I just don't want to move away from those cows, the 2-commerce lake, and we want to stay on the river. It's just a good spot, even if there are horses 3-4 tiles away...

Once we get to slavery, that city is going to get the quite often...

 

[Maquis]

I am also leaning more toward trying for Domination... I just haven't had enough experience in diplomacy to feel safe going that route... I just feel the AI is too fickle with the "traded with worst enemy" "you decalred on our friend" and all that crap...

 

[ChrTh]

Actually, I think it's more likely that we'll have horses nearby and our Always Peace Civ on the same landmass rather than no horses. That's more evil.

I am also leaning more toward trying for Domination... I just haven't had enough experience in diplomacy to feel safe going that route... I just feel the AI is too fickle with the "traded with worst enemy" "you decalred on our friend" and all that crap...

How could you say that after all we went through in CTIV-7?!?

 

[bobrath]

Backdoor domination is always a possibility don't forget.