SGOTM 01 - V Q

[GreyFox]

Based on the assumption that mods are evil:

- the Always Peace civ will be Toku who refuses open border, trade or whatsoever

- the Always War opponent, i.e. Incans, will be very far, on a different land mass, or completely blocked by Toku's closed border

- there will not be horses near our land

- there wll be copper if we settle for it fast

- there will be iron popping in one of the floodplains.

 

[ChrTh]

- the Always Peace civ will be Toku who refuses open border, trade or whatsoever

That would set a new standard for evil.

However, I think Toku's rep may have been mitigated with the patches. In CTIV-6 we were crushed up against Toku the entire game and never went to war with him. In fact, he was Friendly with us for most of the game (same religion).

If I had a choice of which Civ will be 'Always Peace' it'll be Alexander. That sumb*tch always declares war on you. ALWAYS. No matter how good your relations have been. It's like he has a built-in a**hole delay.

 

[Maquis]

Using namliaM's great map... here's a raw breakdown of the city spot:

Here's what I calculate for health issues:

1S: 9 floodplains @ -0.4 health per = -3.6 (rounds to -4 health?)
3 forests @ +0.5 health per = +1.5 heath (rounds to +1 health?)

Net: -3 health (if my rounding is correct) -- Plus access to cow for +1 health

1E: 13 floodplains = -5.2 health (round to -5)
1 forest = 0.5 (0) health
Net: -5 health -- and no cows until 3rd tier expansion


And raw production:

1S: 2 hills (1f1H) 3 plains hills (0F2h) 1 forested hill (1F2H) 2 grassland forest (2F1H) 2 plains (1 w/cow) (2F1H) = 14 raw hammers

1E: 1 hill, 2 plains hills, 2 plains, 1 grassland forest = 8 raw hammers


I don't think we want to give up that much production potential and pick up that much of a heath penalty...

 

[namliaM]

>> YOU GOT THE RIVER ALL WRONG!!! <<<

So I did, will be corrected...

I don't know abt going all research, clearly the capital requires production. But whether we settle in plac,e settle 1S, or settle 1E, we would have a mix of hills and floodplains, which is good for both. The reason why I don't like going 1E is because (1) you pull in at least 3 more floodsplains, (2) you loses at least 2 forest tiles, and (3) its too close to coast but not a coastal city.

Can we take the unhealthiness with extra floodplains and less forests?

1S tho is clearly more powerfull IMHO

Whatever gave you the idea that there is even a remote chance that am not evil?

Uhm?

Why do I find this not reassuring?

Yeah, big (k)not there in my stummage (spelling?)

It's like he has a built-in a**hole delay.

hehehe Ouch...

So once again the original image...

My Rip-off:

​

Visible:

​

Thebes if it goes 1 South

​

+2 food 1 hammer CC
+9 food 0 hammer 9Fps (Cottaged)
+1 food 3 hammer Cow
-3 food 9 hammer 3 grass hills
-6 food 12 hammer plains hills
-1 food 1 hammer 1 plains
== == == == == ==
+2 food 25 hammer

Thebes 1 East, not such a good place to live I think... 1SE would have simular issues

​

Thebes on the spot...

​

+9 food 0 hammer 9Fps (cottaged)
-3 food 3 hammer 3 plains
-2 food 6 hammer 2 Grass hills
-4 food 8 hammer 2 plains hills
==
0 food 17 hammer

Editted to add:
I did fix the river proper like now.... Tho in the screenies of Thebes its bad again...

Re-eddited to figure in food and hammers.... for each site (On the spot and 1S, I personaly have declared 1E to be very very very bad...)

 

[namliaM]

About build order and Research...

Warrior-worker or worker first?

Research...
AH (16) => Mining (9 = 25)
Hunting (7) => AH (14 = 21)=> Mining (9 = 30)
Shaves 2 turns of research of of AH because of the extra pre-req...
and we can build a scout if we wish....
Picking hunting before AH 'costs' 5 turns... (or saves 2 in researching hunting later on)

Or do we want to pick up pottery soon? Which is 13 turns without fishing and 11 with fishing. Fishing itself is the same as hunting 82 beakers, 7 turns.

Building a worker of the bat will take 23 !!! turns...
A warrior is 22 turns, but with growing
Growing to size 2 takes 11 turns. Now a worker is 18 turns
So this choice is....
a) Grow => Worker
11+18 = 29 turns + 18 commerce and size 2 on turn 29, with nothing improved. 1 turn to farm the fp ...
b) Worker of the bat.
23 turns, no extra commerce.
Leaving 7 turns, turn 1 to move + part farm the FP, turn 24-30 to pasture the cow

So on turn 30 we have either 18 extra commerce, with an unimproved Cow and a size 2 city
or
No extra commerce, but the cow improved meaning + 2 hammers for 6 turns. But we need 5 more turns to grow to size 2, losing 5 more commerce ending up 23 commerce in the hole.
At size 1 netting 10 commerce per turn, 2 turns wurth of research...

After turn 30 strat b will start playing catchup as our worker will finish any improvement 6 turns earlier. Meaning the Farm on the FP which will take 9 more turns to finish. And mines/cottages that go up 6 turns earlier...

Reminder: To work the lake (for the early commerce?) we need to pick up fishing...

Edit to add:
Hunting + AH = worker build (or there about)
We can make Thebes a early science (cottage the place up) or early producer...
Putting it 1S at size 4 we start paying +1 Food per citizen FPs then are "grass" tiles...
Farm 1 FP, Cows, Mined Grass, Mined Plains, CC = +2 food, 11 Hammers
For size 5
- Work a cottaged FP, food neutral tho giving some extra commerce
- Sacrifice growth to work an extra grass hill (+3 hammers)
- Work another Farmed FP for +3 food and faster growing for ultimate

On the spot at size 5 we start paying food. But 5 is also the happy limit, so not much calculation to do...

Sorry if I am spamming to much or over analysing...

Final Edit:
I am editting to stop me from having like 10 posts or something in sequence....

If we want a shot at CS sling, we need to go as fast as possible to CoL right?
AH => Writing(Lib for more beakers) => Myst => Meditation => Priesthood (Oracle) => CoL
or
AH => Myst => Meditation => Priesthood (Oracle) => Writing => CoL

 

[bobrath]

Edit: Namliam did you get those turn counts for epic speed?

I think researching fishing for a single water tile is a less then optimal usage of our resources.

I like the idea for getting Hunting first so we can pop a scout out however, how would we be affected in terms of cows and hooking them up?

I like Warrior - worker - warrior/scout because it gets our city to size 2, makes sure we have a defender close while also allowing more exploration.

If we do go warrior first (imo doing worker first is a bad idea due to stunting growth), then our first worker will be available to go to the cows in what 11 + ?? turns (warrior build time + worker build time). 2 turns walk to the pasture. So that's ... how many turns til we need to have AH researched? If it comes to more then 21, then going Hunting first and then AH might make more sense as we could get a scout out after the worker is finished.

Flip side would be to have mining finishing up as our worker finishes up the pasture (by researching AH then Mining).

 

[eektor]

Nice job namliaM!

Well, based on those maps, I definitely will not want to settle 1 east. I south looks good although I'm thinking we should try for southwest on the plains hill. On the plain hill there will be 6 flood plains which I'm thinking will reduce the unhealthiness by 1. (One extra population at the beginning would be great) It gets the cows for a +1 health when we hook them up. Also there is a good chance of forests in the other 3 unknown tiles. Best of all that one extra hammer from the plains hill will more than make up for the one turn we lose to set up city there.

 

[namliaM]

I dont know about settling on the plains hill.
1) we lose a turn (-10 commerce and -1 hammer)
2) We lose 2 hammers in the mid/long term per turn

That offcourse if offset by having +1 hammer for a while. Lets say up to turn 75. This means +75 hammers (or 3 chariots), after which Thebes will be strong enough to actually work the mined hill. At which point we go -2 hammers per turn for settling on that hill. Taking another 75 turns to catch up and overtake the FP start of 1S.

Note to bobrath and eektor, you probably read half finished posts by me. Please check the save times of both the posts. They are (way) past your posting times. Please double check and re-read if/where needed. I think I have bob's questions answered anyway.

And Yes those speeds are on Epic speed.

Popping a scout, assuming we do a Worker of the bat, will take 23 turns (for the worker to build) plus about 11 turns (7 turns working a FP and 4 working the improved Cow) for the scout. Finishing on turn 34 (if I did my math right). By then the bad people are out of their boxed I think, how good a chance does the scout have getting around?
I am ussually an advocate of a scout, but on epic? I dont know?

Edit:
I am counting on seeing page 5 when I wake up in the morning!

 

[Maquis]

I agree with eektor. 1E is definatly out. Starting out unhealthy is ust wrong, growth in 33 turns?

Even 1S looks a little iffy. We'd reach the health limit at size 2, and would have to get our worker out to hook up the cows before growing past 3.

Maybe 1SW is the best move, dropping a 3FP (one less unhealthy) and possibly picking up one more forest for anther +1 health. That would give us a net starting health of +3; possibly more if more forsest to the west.

One other consideration... if we go 1 SW, we could fit another city in to the east...

That's only 2 tiles overlap... We'd settle on the desert tile, a few hills, forest, have a coastal city...


So, am I the first one who has ever made a dotmap to squeeze two cities in a starting screenshot?

 

[ChrTh]

Re: CS Sling: We need Mining, I don't think we can beat the AI to Oracle unless we can amp our production. Also we need to get Cottages to help our research. I don't think beelining to the slingshot is a good idea, especially if we're on a landmass with our Always Peace partner.

Re: Health. We're unhealthy at Size 3?!?

Settling SW might be better from a health perspective ... or we can just whip the crap out of Thebes since it'll grow back so fast from all those flood plains...but I'm thinking SW may be the better option.

Re: I am counting on seeing page 5 when I wake up in the morning!


EDIT:

Re: So, am I the first one who has ever made a dotmap to squeeze two cities in a starting screenshot?

Probably. I was looking at the same possibility as well, although I was looking at the tile N of the river, but your spot is better.

 

[Maquis]

2) We lose 2 hammers in the mid/long term per turn

I don't think we'll be losing 2 hammers/turn... I'm willing to bet we'll pick up at least something from the tiles to the west... forest, or another hill...

 

[namliaM]

Even 1S looks a little iffy. We'd reach the health limit at size 2, and would have to get our worker out to hook up the cows before growing past 3.

Iffy why?

FP = 3 food - 1 sick = 2 food, food neutral... I dont really see a point in growing past size 3 without a cow, or to size 5 (happy limit) with the cow...

I would want to bet on more hills due East, and wont the blue spot have serious health issues soon too??

 

[namliaM]

I don't think we'll be losing 2 hammers/turn... I'm willing to bet we'll pick up at least something from the tiles to the west... forest, or another hill...

Yes we will, we are getting 2 hammers of a 4 hammer tile thus losing 2 hammers per turn .... once we can work the mined hill.

Same goes for the FP tho. Settling on it loses us a food, but gains a hammer... It is allways a trade-off

Like that blue city, trading 2 health for settling on a FP river tile to improve a dessert (nothing nothing nothing tile) to a 2f/1h/1c

 

[eektor]

I know I only talked about hammers and not about the commerce and food lost, but I still think in the long run it will help. For instant that extra hammer will help us get the worker faster, how much turns will it save? Those turns save will be those same amount of turns with a pasture on the cows. Which gives 1 more food and 2 hammers ??? (I'm at work and not near my civ 4 stuff)

I don't agree that we lose +2 hammers in the long run, because as soon as we can support a mine there are 4 hills to mine (and possibly up to 3 more who knows) til the plain hills get factored in, so we might lose +2 in the late game. Either way the extra hammer at the beginning would be far more helpful than +2 hammers in the late game.

In the commerce we lose one turn at the beginning but that 10 commerce that we lost will become less and less of a factor as the game goes on. The extra hammers could help us capture a city sooner or build a library sooner which could negate the 10 commerce we lost at the beginning.

@Maquis I think that is a first. I think those two city sites look good though.

Edit: Oh wow so many replies while I was typing. As for the blue site I wouldn't put the city as our 2nd city, so hopefully we wouldn't have to worry about health in that one at the very beginning.

CS sling - I was thinking to go quickly to do that we can do AH, Writing, then if there are a few civs next to us I would say do Alphabet and try to trade for Mysticism and Meditation. I think this might be fast enough to do a CS slingshot. If not many civs next to us I don't think we can do the slingshot.

 

[Maquis]

Initial research: I vote to go AH first, and then mining. Getting AH in time for the worker not only gets us the cows faster, but also shows us if horses are around. That may really change our thinking if we have horses nearby.

First builds... I agree worker first is wrong here.. warrior then worker. I just can't take a chance that Inca is on our landmass. (even though we are all assuming they are not)

I don't know that we can plan a build after the worker... it depends if we have horses or not.

 

[ChrTh]

I am counting on seeing page 5 when I wake up in the morning!

Or before you go to sleep

I see what namliaM is saying; you're trading hammers now for hammers later by settling on the hill ... although it's also probably safe to say that moving 1SW will also open up more hills than 1S will, so I think the hammers trade is worthwhile.

Blue dot, though, is going to have serious health problems; only 1 forest and no fresh water. If we're going to build it, I say we save it for much later because I don't see it as more than a small fishing village (of course, if there are several fish/crab/clam tiles in its BFC...)

EDIT: I'm thinking Warrior/Worker/Warrior as the build pattern at the start. AH first I think is a must.

 

[Maquis]

I say we save it for much later

Sorry if I didn't qualify that, but I was thinking the same. Blue dot does not have to be city #2, but can be filled in a bit later.

We may be wanting to expand out anyways, to try to grab land. If our assumptions are right, we'll be competing for land with our friend... Blue dot will always be there for us later.

 

[eektor]

So if I get this right, I think we all agree on these things.

- Research AH first
- Build warrior/worker/warrior

Right?

 

[ChrTh]

That's a start, but I think we need to plan it out further. Like, plan the entire game in advance.

Warrior should move NE-N-N-NW-NW-W-S-SW-W-SW-S-E-Fortify until healed (3 turns)-S-S-SW-W-S-SE-E-E-SE-S-S-Fortify until healed (5 turns) and I think that takes it to my turn

 

[bobrath]

I assume we're going AH first since our intention is to have mining available after our worker finishes hooking up the cows. Right?

Well, if we go warrior/worker/??? then the worker will be completed when?

If its more then (or within a turn of) 30 turns... then picking up Hunting first might be a superior idea.