SGOTM 02 - Geezers

[trippstowe]

The no growth button is different than using the governor. It avoids growth even if you have manually configured food surplus.
In Kyoto you cannot avoid growth by configuring the tiles, if you want max commerce.
If you want to finish something and then build a settler or worker, you should avoid growth to have the maximum food surplus for the following build. Then the no growth button should be used.

oh wow i didnt realize that. i thought it was just part of the governor. but where does the extra food go? it just is wasted it looks like. i think it would be better to have unhappy people, as long as they dont starve you. you can at least whip them or eventually make them happy. so i am against using this button, unless of course the extra unhappy citizen will make the city starving.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Still, using a citizen instead of working coast loses 2 gpt. If we want to avoid running into unhappiness we should use the no growth button.
But we can grow to size 5 - next turn the whip unhappiness will go away. And then there is still 2 or 3 (above size 4 we have less food surplus) turns to complete the settler.
And then we could grow to unhappy 6 to have population for whipping. But that already takes quite a few turns because health will come into play. If we really use the workboat for scouting we will probably not even reach it.

Well in the games I've been playing recently I find that whipping results in an unhappy person for 10/15 turns depending on the whether it is standard or epic i.e. if you whip at 6 pop for one pop then the unhappiness will stay at 6 because of the 'we cannot forget your cruelty'. So if you want to whip it either needs to be 2 or more pop once you have reached the unhappiness level or you should whip at 4 pop.

But in any case you are going to reduce the available gold if you whip. If we use a specialist once Kyoto grows to 4 then we do not gain an extra 2 gold but it won't reduce our current gold.

I know that we're a bit stuffed at the moment but I also think that we need a better appreciation of what is out there.

 

[klarius]

Okay, a little more detail.
We have currently only 4 happy faces because of whip unhappiness. This will go away next turn, then we can grow to size 5 still staying happy (in 2 + 6 turns). We then could whip the workboat, if we think we need it urgently and go back to happy 4.
By that we have the workboat in 9 turns, while always working the maximum coastal tiles.

If we apply a citizen now, we will grow to 4 in 3 turns and to 5 in another 8 turns and still have to wait another 4 turns for the workboat to come out. All the time we have worked 1 coastal tile less.

So if you urgently want the workboat we should grow and whip. But I would rather not have the workboat soon at all, but just grow and stay at size 5 to get us a bit further in tech.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Okay, a little more detail.
We have currently only 4 happy faces because of whip unhappiness. This will go away next turn, then we can grow to size 5 still staying happy (in 2 + 6 turns). We then could whip the workboat, if we think we need it urgently and go back to happy 4.
By that we have the workboat in 9 turns, while always working the maximum coastal tiles.

If we apply a citizen now, we will grow to 4 in 3 turns and to 5 in another 8 turns and still have to wait another 4 turns for the workboat to come out. All the time we have worked 1 coastal tile less.

Ok that bit sounds good. I don't know how to work out how long it takes to grow another pop so I'm grateful for your calculations.

So if you urgently want the workboat we should grow and whip. But I would rather not have the workboat soon at all, but just grow and stay at size 5 to get us a bit further in tech.

My point was that you can't stay at size 5 if you want to work the fish and crabs for max gold. Kyoto will keep growing because of all the excess food unless it's mm'd to use less food and hence generate less gold. If you're right about how the 'No growth button works then fine. However I have sneaking suspicion that the game will create specialists for you. The next player can tell us how it turned out in practice,

 

[trippstowe]

However I have sneaking suspicion that the game will create specialists for you. The next player can tell us how it turned out in practice,

no i actually tested it out. with the no growth buttton on, it will still say that your town will grow in a turn, but it doesnt grow. it changes nothing as far as where you have placed your villagers to work. it seems that the extra food is just wasted. so it doesnt look like it will automatically make speciallist.

what is so bad about the unhappy people?? they only take up two food, right? and we can used them later to whip for a forge or library, so i say let them be unhappy until we are in risk of starving!

my suggestion: work the tiles with the most output(clams and fish). once we only have a surplus of only ONE food then start on a WORKER(this worker can go with the settler when it goes out). otherwise, produce those unhappy slaves. use the next work boat to explore. and then build more in the mean time to improve the clams and fish. i dont know why i built the settler, i think it was suggested somewhere else, i see that it was a mistake to do this, and i shouldnt have, not at least until we were in trouble of starving.

again sorry about the turnset, it was a very difficult one and i did the best i could at the time. i had to pull back my warriors from the gem mine because i was getting attacked my three warriors and only had two in the town. hindsight is always 20/20.

 

[klarius]

Building, but not completing the settler was my suggestion, but it should have been done exactly at the happy limit, to get max commerce. If we would have been able to work the commerce tiles in Osaka we would be through with IW in about 3-5 turns from now and would have about 10 more turns to sailing. That would have fit nice to pop a galley at size 6.

So now we are a little late in science and in fact could fit in another pop rush.

Building a worker being unhappy is totally unefficient. If you need a worker some time, prebuild it while happy with 7 food surplus. Then build something else while growing to unhappy. And if you have to finish another build before you go for the worker, then it's really the time to use the no growth button. It doesn't help to blindly go into a lot unhappy population. One should plan ahead what and when to pop-rush.
The next rush would be a galley which needs 2 pop. So there having just reached size 6 is optimal but not really necessary.
Some time later we will want to rush a library for 3 pop. That's the time we really need at least pop 6 and pop 7 would be optimal.

BTW another feature of the no growth button:
If you fill the bin completely with it and then build a settler or worker you will grow by one when you switch it off.
That's nice when whip happiness just vanishes. You can grow to take advantage of the increased happy faces w/o having to switch away from your settler/worker build.

 

[markh]

ok here it is :

0) 2320BC : change tiles in Osaka, delay growth by 2 turns, but get the warrior still in 2 and have more gold for research

IBT : both barbs suicide on our warriors in the forrest
another comes from the North

1) 2290BC : nothing

IBT : another barb from the South, the northern one is now at Osaka

2) 2260BC : worker starts mining the gems

IBT : the northern barb suicides on the warriors guarding our worker

3) 2230BC : nothing

IBT : 1 new barb warrior from NE and 1 new barb warrior from the SE
1 barb warrior closes in on Osaka

4) 2200BC : nothing

IBT : 1 barb warrior suicides at Osaka, the other two close in on our worker
1 new barb warrior from the SW

5) 2170BC : warrior kills the barb warrior that stepped on the Oasis
1 warrior loses to the other barb warrior, chances were 90.1% for our warrior, otherwise the barb could have attckacked containing a wounded warrior

IBT : 1 barb warrior closes in on Osaka, a new one appears in the far South

6) 2140BC : nothing

IBT : nothing

7) 2110BC : gems are connected again

IBT : 1 barb warrior suicides at Osaka
1 closes in on Osaka and is not interested in our gems mine
1 new one from SW

8) 2080BC : nothing

IBT : 2 barb warriors suicide at Osaka

9) 2050BC : 2 warriors and the worker move on the gold hill
1 barb warrior is at Osaka

IBT : the arb warrior walks by and is more interested in the gems mine
1 new barb warrior appears from the NE

10) 2020BC : nothing

IBT : the barb warrior suicides on the defenses on our gems mine
1 closes in on the gems mine and another one appears in the SW
Judaism has been founded

11) 1990BC : nothing

IBT : 1 barb warrior suicides on our defenses on our gems mine
1 barb warrior closes in at the gold hill
1 new barb from the West

12) 1960BC : nothing

IBT : 1 barb warrior suicides on the defenses on the gold hill
we enter the classical era
IW is in and we have Iron right NW of Osaka in city range, research is set to sailing

13) 1930BC : nothing

IBT : 1 barb closes in on Osaka, 2 new ones from S and SW

14) 1900BC : moved two warriors and the worker on the iron hill.

Another warrior will finish next IBT. If you let research at 0% and turn research to 100% next turn we have enough gold to research sailing in 7 instead of 11 at 60%. Sailing can still be changed if we want anything else as I had research at 0%, but sailing would be my favorite now to settle the islands at Kyoto.

I used 0% - 100% research for IW, too which saved us a few turns.

And a pic for you and the lurkers.

 

[klarius]

Well, that looks a lot better now.
Gyathaar is after all not completely evil . Note that probably every thinkable good city location near the start will have the iron at least after expansion.

A few MM notes:
I also think we should do sailing now. In this case Kyoto should complete the settler now. The build has already started to decay and it would take very long to finish it if we would grow to 6. When we have sailing immediately build galley and rush it the next turn.
We need 4 population in Osaka soon, to work all 4 strong tiles. So I would work a forest instead of the plain, exchanging one food for one coin for a few turns.
I would build a road on the iron first so we can shift warriors around on all tiles we want to defend.

And please, when iron is connected don't go out to build city raider swords. First get a couple of axes, to defend Osaka and our tiles. There will be soon barb archers and not much later barb axes.

Researchwise I would like to concentrate on getting CoL. So i would go mysticism-meditation-priesthood-writing-CoL. But getting to writing faster by other ways for a faster library in Kyoto is also an option.

I think our best bet to get our empire real going is to build the 2 island towns, build courthouses everywhere including Kyoto and then build the palace in Osaka.

 

[markh]

So I would work a forest instead of the plain, exchanging one food for one coin for a few turns.
I would build a road on the iron first so we can shift warriors around on all tiles we want to defend.

I was exchanging these tiles a few times during my turns. Of course a road first on the iron. We need fast shifting of units. Hopefully barb archers do not appear too soon.

 

[juballs2001]

i agree on the new science path, iron is gonna do us wonders in defending right now.

however i have one concern.
we are pushing out military units for defenses which is a must, but how far are we behind in bilding some cities. i know it will be expensive, but sooner or later most of the area on the mainland will be taken by other civs.

theres generous amounts of land out there and yes we can wait... i just hope we dont wait too long

 

[markh]

With sailing we can settle the islands at Kyoto. That will give us 4 cities which enables us to build the palace in Osaka. Without the cities around Kyoto we cannot afford any new city on the main island and we cannot build the palace. The barbs will keep Izzy busy for a while, so we have still some time. Moreover while there is room left Izzy will concentrate on settling and her defenses will be quite weak. With swords we can take the land we need if we have to. If we cannot settle new towns we can take them from Izzy, but there are still many turns to play. We will see. First we have to connect the iron and get the two additional cities. Then we can see whether it is possible to build the palace in Osaka right away.

 

[trippstowe]

I used 0% - 100% research for IW, too which saved us a few turns.

good turnset! that is a relief about the iron.

how does the 0%-100% thing save turns without a rounding factor? i thought it was only saved turns if you have a library or market or something else that gives you a % increase on science or commerce. just curious.

 

[markh]

It depends how much money you make. When I took over the save IW was due in 20 and with working one more commerce tile in Kyoto and 0% - 100% we could make enough cash to reduce the research time a bit. There is an article in the strategy section on it.

 

[trippstowe]

It depends how much money you make. When I took over the save IW was due in 20 and with working one more commerce tile in Kyoto and 0% - 100% we could make enough cash to reduce the research time a bit. There is an article in the strategy section on it.

yeah i have read the article on MM'ing. it was even actually posted again on this thread. but that article says that the 0%-100% only matters if you have some kind of adjuster, like a library or market that would allow for a rounding error.

 

[markh]

Maybe I was fooled by Kyoto and Osaka growing which made more commerce and maybe then it would have been the same number of turns with the research slider at 50%. I would have to replay the turns that way. Maybe I will do it tomorrow to see how it turns out.

 

[trippstowe]

Maybe I was fooled by Kyoto and Osaka growing which made more commerce and maybe then it would have been the same number of turns with the research slider at 50%. I would have to replay the turns that way. Maybe I will do it tomorrow to see how it turns out.

let us know. i am not trying to say you are wrong, i am curious to know if i need to use it in the future too!

 

[klarius]

Well, you might want to read this article

Already without multipliers by improvements there are multipliers for prerequisites and civs knowing the tech. And there are truncation operations everywhere.
100% may not be the optimal percentage for a given commerce, but if you don't calculate it exactly, it loses less on average than other random percentages.

 

[trippstowe]

Well, you might want to read this article

Already without multipliers by improvements there are multipliers for prerequisites and civs knowing the tech. And there are truncation operations everywhere.
100% may not be the optimal percentage for a given commerce, but if you don't calculate it exactly, it loses less on average than other random percentages.

ok that explains a lot. so it does matter. the fact that you would have higher numbers coming from the slider for the prerequisites/civ knowledge modifieres would make the all or nothing slider actually gain a beaker or two along the way. man, firaxis should have not had rounding and calculated to the 10,000th. i wonder if people would use the all or nothing slider then? probably so.

 

[Thrallia]

still on vacation, but I got internet access finally. Everything looks good

Question though: we obviously want to lightbulb one of our UU techs to reduce the research time for Samurai's.

Do we want to avoid Masonry and lightbulb CS with a prophet, or should we get pyramids or a forge/engineer specialist and lightbulb Machinery? Or we could try to do both...do an MC Slingshot, rush a forge, then MM an engineer to get a fast Prophet for CS, and then a GE for Machinery.

Just a thought and it may be impossible, I'm not a GP expert.

Also, I don't recall the Palace needing any # of cities, but I believe it requires Masonry to build it.
Things definitely look up right now though with iron next to Osaka.

 

[markh]

Do not know whether we will be able to build wonders. The palace already will keep Osaka busy for a while even with chopping. It is 160 hammers.

You do not need masonry for the palace, but 4 cities. Masonry was necessary in Civ3.