IL2T
Prince
Addition: We can not be confident about map size by mini map view at this moment.Lexad said:
SGOTM 02 - Team CFR
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
IL2T
Prince
Lexad said:We've discussed it when estimated distance maintenance cost in the beginning. West is shorter
West from Kyoto? You are right!
Then Yahoi caravel will go to East...
Balbes
Instigator
Just an idea - we can grow a Great Merchant in Madrid and use him for 75% of Civil Service, instead of a Great Scientist for the last 30% of Astronomy.
Balbes
Instigator
I think we'll have traded for Currency and Monarchy by then. However I'm not sure if the GM brings in more beakers (Civil Service = 1700, 1/3 of Astronomy = 1500, but also some beakers from scientists along the way). It's a close call and may require more precise calculations.
I would not count on that - it assumes that AI know Calendar, CoL and on top of that - Currency and are willing to trade - and we have what they need. Astronomy way relies more on what we ourselves can guarantee. Still, it seems we'd be quicker to finish Astro ourselves, so we might have a thought about 4th GPerson.
Non-GS GP give much less beakers, so GM won't be able to research 100% of Civil Service.
Non-GS GP give much less beakers, so GM won't be able to research 100% of Civil Service.
My program:
Cities
Kyoto – as low happiness prevent us from using it as a GP farm, propose grow to 6 and rush Forge
Growth: 3 (1 turn, 28 food pass to next pop of 39 required), 4(+1 = 2 turns, 21/42 food pass), 5(+2 = 4, 21/45 pass), 6(+3 = 7 turns) and pop-rush forge (there will be 3 pop = 132 hammers left exactly 7 turns from this). This will make all our future pop-rushes more efficient by using pop-rush bug.
Osaka: Granary will give 11*1+2*1.5 = 14 more food and faster growth, Forge – 3*7 = 21 more hammer if built first. Go for Forge, then Granary. Build cottage, irrigate rice.
Edo – vice versa first Granary, then Forge - high food output, low production. Irrigate grass for optimal pop, mine hills. As there’s no rush, I’d rather not chop trees for Forge.
Yayoi - first Granary, then Lighthouse, then Forge. Mine plains hill, road deer.
Tokyo - Granary, then Forge. Mine hills
Warfare – straightforward: attack Cordoba and Madrid (expected loss 3-4 swords per city, join forces in Seville. If useful techs – strike peace, otherwise destroy, consider happiness effect on Madrid.. Think we need no new units.
Research – 80%, Alphabet, then it depends on trade results. If we trade CoL, transfer to Castes ASA Madrid pop-rushes most necessary buildings. Our GS-generator is Edo.
Cities
Kyoto – as low happiness prevent us from using it as a GP farm, propose grow to 6 and rush Forge
Growth: 3 (1 turn, 28 food pass to next pop of 39 required), 4(+1 = 2 turns, 21/42 food pass), 5(+2 = 4, 21/45 pass), 6(+3 = 7 turns) and pop-rush forge (there will be 3 pop = 132 hammers left exactly 7 turns from this). This will make all our future pop-rushes more efficient by using pop-rush bug.
Osaka: Granary will give 11*1+2*1.5 = 14 more food and faster growth, Forge – 3*7 = 21 more hammer if built first. Go for Forge, then Granary. Build cottage, irrigate rice.
Edo – vice versa first Granary, then Forge - high food output, low production. Irrigate grass for optimal pop, mine hills. As there’s no rush, I’d rather not chop trees for Forge.
Yayoi - first Granary, then Lighthouse, then Forge. Mine plains hill, road deer.
Tokyo - Granary, then Forge. Mine hills
Warfare – straightforward: attack Cordoba and Madrid (expected loss 3-4 swords per city, join forces in Seville. If useful techs – strike peace, otherwise destroy, consider happiness effect on Madrid.. Think we need no new units.
Research – 80%, Alphabet, then it depends on trade results. If we trade CoL, transfer to Castes ASA Madrid pop-rushes most necessary buildings. Our GS-generator is Edo.
Balbes
Instigator
Sounds good to me in general. Do we need a lighthouse in Yayoi? The city has plenty of good land tiles, and enough food to work them. Why 80% science not 100%? Does Madrid need any new buildings, as opposed to just assigning a bunch of scientists with Castes?
Near Yayoi, I'd just complete the mine on the deer hill and forget about it forever.
Near Yayoi, I'd just complete the mine on the deer hill and forget about it forever.
IL2T
Prince
Two questions:
Why it's nessesary set research rate at 80%?
Yayoi - road deer
Not mine?Too long looked save...
IL2T
Prince
Warning: After Spain destroy we can receive a problem with barbs again...
We need some more military.
We need some more military.
The difference in 100% and 80% research is 1 tutn (6vs7) and a big chunk of gpt. We ain't sure yet where to move after, and we should probably meet more AI to get desired trades, so I would get Alphabet fast, but not overinvest.
Mined deer is 1/3/0; camped is 3/1/0 and can be used in trade with other civs for gold or resources. It also allows to get 2 more plains cottages in longer run.
Yayoi - yep, we have 3 cottage tiles and 3 bonus tiles and 1 hammer tile, so Forge moves before Lightouse to give happiness reguired for it to be used.
Madrid - I plan to rush Forge there for happiness, maybe Lighthouse (if we do not capture it) to get along with 2 "feeders" instead of 3 and squeeze into happiness limit.
As for barbs proble, we will restore pre-war land control in less than 15 turns after the campaign (thanx to religion).
Mined deer is 1/3/0; camped is 3/1/0 and can be used in trade with other civs for gold or resources. It also allows to get 2 more plains cottages in longer run.
Yayoi - yep, we have 3 cottage tiles and 3 bonus tiles and 1 hammer tile, so Forge moves before Lightouse to give happiness reguired for it to be used.
Madrid - I plan to rush Forge there for happiness, maybe Lighthouse (if we do not capture it) to get along with 2 "feeders" instead of 3 and squeeze into happiness limit.
As for barbs proble, we will restore pre-war land control in less than 15 turns after the campaign (thanx to religion).
Balbes
Instigator
There won't be a longer run; with Astronomy, we'd be immediately bashing their heads in, not trading with them. Well maybe with the one civ we save for last; but definitely not as long as to begin building plains cottages. Yayoi has enough food to support all mined hills, that's all it really needs to build the army.Lexad said:
I think Hereditary Rule is a much better solution for any happiness problems in Madrid.
IL2T
Prince
Note: at 100% we have 77 bpt, at 80% 75 gpt + bpt.
After Alphabet we set research rate at 0%. Or not?
After Alphabet we set research rate at 0%. Or not?
IMHO Madrid will builded forge in any case.Balbes said:
Sure HRule is good. Representation not bad either. Environmentalism would work as there are 2 woods left 
Isabella and Bismark got none of these though. Let's rummage and so far use Forge as we will need it again as soon as we return to Slavery.
With Astronomy we start bashing, and there will be 6 rivals living. Fighting one doesn't mean no trade with others.And with Forge, Granary and Slavery faster pop growth in Yayoi might work far better than hammer output - check Obormot's report of his win in GOTM8 when he got more than 2 hammers per loaf.
Isabella and Bismark got none of these though. Let's rummage and so far use Forge as we will need it again as soon as we return to Slavery.With Astronomy we start bashing, and there will be 6 rivals living. Fighting one doesn't mean no trade with others.And with Forge, Granary and Slavery faster pop growth in Yayoi might work far better than hammer output - check Obormot's report of his win in GOTM8 when he got more than 2 hammers per loaf.
Balbes
Instigator
By this point in the game one of the AIs is almost certain to have researched Monarchy. Whipping with granary + forge is very powerful, but unfortunately we should be switching to Castes more or less immediately, and assigning all those people in Madrid to GS generation, which is our number one priority for quick Astronomy.
Don't worry. With Madrid's high crop yields repoping 3 people will take no time (compare to Kyoto - grow from pop 2 to pop 6 in 7 turns with granary, but lower happiness level. We can give a start with chopping 1 wood.
Again, so far none of the civs we've met has Monarchy, which means 1. chances of meeting a civ with monarchy decreased and 2. AI would be less wiling (or completely unwillingif it is not widespread) to trade it. I don't think it is widespread as 2 of 7 civs do not have Alphabet also.
Again, so far none of the civs we've met has Monarchy, which means 1. chances of meeting a civ with monarchy decreased and 2. AI would be less wiling (or completely unwillingif it is not widespread) to trade it. I don't think it is widespread as 2 of 7 civs do not have Alphabet also.
We seem to be moving in the right direction overall. Just a few remarks.
I don't understand why did the caravell from Kyoto sail north? I think it is very likely that we'll find other AIs on the same continent as Germany, so I propose to send it there.
About castes: it seems that everybody here wants to revolt ASAP. I think it is a mistake. In my calculations the revolt takes place in 350AD (i.e. 30 turns from now) and we still get our 4th GS in 800AD or so. We have to use this 30 turns to finish granaries, forges, lighthouses, etc. If we manage to build most of the stuff quickly - good, but if not, I think Castes can wait a bit.
I am not sure whether researching Alphabet full-speed is a good idea. The only tech that would be nice to get immidiately is Calendar. I don't know if we can trade for it, but I would wait for more contacts first. Maybe somebody has Alphabet already? At least that was the plan we had initially, and I don't see why we should change that.
I am definietly against making peace with Isabella. We should get more contacts soon, so we don't need her techs. Seville may not be a great city, but certainly a decent one, and I want to start improving it ASAP.
I agree with Lexad about city developement plan, I just don't understand one issue:
There are also 3 potential city spots. We have to decide whether we want to settle them or not now. And if we want to build them, we should start making settlers in Osaka now (before the forge). I think we should build at least the ones on the west coast.
I don't understand why did the caravell from Kyoto sail north? I think it is very likely that we'll find other AIs on the same continent as Germany, so I propose to send it there.
About castes: it seems that everybody here wants to revolt ASAP. I think it is a mistake. In my calculations the revolt takes place in 350AD (i.e. 30 turns from now) and we still get our 4th GS in 800AD or so. We have to use this 30 turns to finish granaries, forges, lighthouses, etc. If we manage to build most of the stuff quickly - good, but if not, I think Castes can wait a bit.
I am not sure whether researching Alphabet full-speed is a good idea. The only tech that would be nice to get immidiately is Calendar. I don't know if we can trade for it, but I would wait for more contacts first. Maybe somebody has Alphabet already? At least that was the plan we had initially, and I don't see why we should change that.
I am definietly against making peace with Isabella. We should get more contacts soon, so we don't need her techs. Seville may not be a great city, but certainly a decent one, and I want to start improving it ASAP.
I agree with Lexad about city developement plan, I just don't understand one issue:
I think we need only one farm for Edo, so that we can support 4 scientists after the switch. Other then that I would build cottages, because the limiting factor for rushing will be happiness (most of the time we won't be able to whip more then 2 citizens at a time). Also I don't understand why should we save the forests?
There are also 3 potential city spots. We have to decide whether we want to settle them or not now. And if we want to build them, we should start making settlers in Osaka now (before the forge). I think we should build at least the ones on the west coast.
IL2T
Prince
+ CLObormot said:
My opinion concerning the Alphabet.
The chances is insignificant, that somebody AI has it. Therefore it's necessary discover it.
As we can receive some additional technologies from Spain. Means it's necessary to make it ASAP.
We need to understand outlines continents on map. For this purpose to cover the greatest area of map.
Germany has game score similar to ours. It speaks that they or on separate continent, or is strong seized.
Why do you think the chances are insignificant? It is 100BC already and a decent difficulty level. CoL is definitely needed, but as I said we are still going to spend at least 20 turns in slavery (propably 30), so we can wait. Meanwhile we don't have enough gold to support 100% research of both Alphabet + CoL, so further waiting doesn't mean later CoL at any circumstances.
Its not a big deal though, and if everybody wants Alphabet its fine with me. It may be a small boost if we can get Calendar significantly earlier, but it may also be a waste if we meet AIs with Alphabet just after researching.
Its not a big deal though, and if everybody wants Alphabet its fine with me. It may be a small boost if we can get Calendar significantly earlier, but it may also be a waste if we meet AIs with Alphabet just after researching.
Well, I disagree. We need contacts and tech trading urgently, but we don't need a complete map that urgent, since we raen't planning an invasion yet. Also I think that our expansion was actually terribly slow because of maximising commerce early on instead of food, because of delayed settling of Osaka and Tokyo and because of the hammers invested into the palace build. I think that if germany is equal to us in size, it means that they are weak. Also on fractal maps 2 continents is the most coomon case, so I am almost sure that there are more AIs near germany.
