SGOTM 02 - Team CFR

[Balbes]

Umm... The first paragraph ("Strategy") confused the heck out of me even despite myself being on the team. Either it needs to be expanded and reworded for a clearer logical structure, or still better I suggest to have it dropped entirely, as well as the references to the tests we made. Let's describe just the facts (most of the text looks good to me), and keep other teams wondering "How do they do that?!?!" for just a little longer They'll have ample material for analysis when they're allowed to read our thread.

edit: BTW there's no 75AD turn in an Epic game; we met the last rival, Mao, in 65AD and also finished off Isabella on that same turn. 65AD was a good year, let's choose it as the end date for the spoiler.

 

[akots]

Look great, please also include a pic of the empire at around 10AD.

 

[Dynamic]

Nice, but may be we need to write our tech sequence?

 

[Obormot]

I don't like the spoilers that include only the facts. I think players should share the strategy and planning with others, this way in the next game the strategy has to be refined even further to be able to win, making it more interesting. I will edit it to make it more clear though (and correct the dates).

I don't think the tech sequence is very important, but I guess it can be extracted from the log and included to the spoiler at any point. I don't really like the spoilers that just have a big list of dates and events, only a few benchmark dates are important for comparing the games, other just confuse everybody. So I have only included the key dates for the most important events (second & third city, Oracle, palace, optics, conquest of Spain, meeting the last rival).

 

[Dynamic]

I just played...
Please, don't play before discussion, but I need to sleep now...
It's not my best session, I over-estimated power of Samurais and had bad random... and I totaly forget about Barbs... So, let's wait but, in any case, Obormot will start with multiple city warfare... China and Incan help us and remove part of their forces from cities, but Germans not...

 

[Dynamic]

First off all, I tried to analyze the perspective direction of war. Germany is weak enough and only starts to build Longbows so we have a chance to fight against Archers. China is stronger but hasn’t many cities so we can start with small invasion forces but for remove defense only. Inca is average but we have not good logistics here – we need more Galleons but still can start the war and, in addition, Vilcabamba has only 2 defenders. So, we can fight for 3 fronts. I just delayed German war for 2 turns.I also sell Astronomy for Meditation, Literature, Drama and Theology + 80 gold for access to luxury slider. Now we don’t need to build additional Chariots for happiness (I started it in Kyoto by mistake).

2 Galleons from west coast of our land move to Frankfurt, 3-d Galleon moves to China. 2 Samurais and Cat landed near Beijing (War), next turn 2 Cats and 2 Samurais moved to Guangzhou. Medic Samurais moves to Thebes for healing troop before transferring to Beijing.

Units from Heliopolis and Kyoto moved to Berlin (really I was need only 1 more unit for success…&#61516. 2 Cats move to Cologne and Dortmund for removing defence before Samurais could heal and reach these cities. Essen will be captured by second wave.

I tried to capture Vilcabamba by 2 Samurais and 1 Cat but well promoted Samurais lost with more then 80%…: So, I razed it a little bit later.

Of course, I captured Elephantine next turn so Egypt is gone.
During all war preparing I forget about raging Barbs and was very close to miss Memphis and Heliopolis… German and Incas units on old Egypt territory also delayed our Samurais…

I successfully captured Frankfurt and next target on this front is Munich. I don’t know, could we capture Berlin now or not… it seems too risky but possible (I killed all defenders except 1, but new defenders are appeared&#8230.

On the current turn we must capture Beijing, Tiwanaku and, may be, Essen, Cologne. The big stack near Beijing and Tiwanaku is explained by greater amount of units on last turn – part of them leaves cities.

Now we have enough Galleons, but small amount of ready units on homeland… and, Galleons must be chained right (I didn’t it before because of not enough good effect).

 

[Obormot]

I got it, will play tonight or tomorrow evening. Good job setting up the wars for me, looks like I am going to have some fun now.

 

[Balbes]

All right, it looks like Team Peanut may still try to give us some competition, so the endgame may be interesting after all.

I also sell Astronomy for Meditation, Literature, Drama and Theology + 80 gold for access to luxury slider. Now we don’t need to build additional Chariots for happiness (I started it in Kyoto by mistake).

I'm not sure if losing 10% of income across the empire is more efficient than building one chariot.

 

[Dynamic]

I'm not sure if losing 10% of income across the empire is more efficient than building one chariot.

It's more efficient, because we can build only units that we really need. And, several turns later unhappiness will be much stronger so in any case we need to use Luxury slider.

 

[Obormot]

I played my turns.

I have captured most of Germany, next turn we should be able to take their last mainland city, which will leave them with an island.

I took 2 China's biggest cities, the rest shouldn't be too difficult.

The incans were a bit of a problem, I captured Tiwanaku and one other incan city, but they retook it with knights. I have taken it back again, but had to raze it since HC had more knights. We lost a few samurais there.

I have poprushed quite a bit and brought population down in most cities. I did not poprush in Osaka though, because the tiles there are very good. But we should do it now, because WW has just increased a lot and now we have 9 unhappy faces in Osaka because of war (with 10 population).

I think that the logistics was not perfect, we have too many galeons in the east and too few in the west.

 

[Balbes]

I think that the logistics was not perfect, we have too many galeons in the east and too few in the west.

Isn't it in fact a good thing? The west (Egypt/Germany/China) is all but subjugated, and now we need to transfer the last and biggest wave of samurais (resulting from poprushing) to Inca/Mongol lands via the eastern route.

 

[IL2T]

According to the initial plan we should finish through 20 turns.
In your opinion it's real?

 

[akots]

I've downloaded the save and can try to play during the weekend.

@Obormot:
Can you please elaborate more on the subject? What was the plan and how do I proceed? I am really bad at trying to evaluate in how many turns we should finish.

In general, if there is a real threat of losing many units, it might be better to have a cease fire if possible.

It also seems that 20 turns is a bit too optimistic but again, I'm bad at estimating these things.

Still, it would be highly desirable if CB of Ptitsa would jump in and play 5 turns. I'll wait until tomorrow and then, if either one of them don't show up, will try to play 10 turns. Might take awhile.

Just to emphasize again, a detailed report would have been really helpful, may be a map with the enemy units. Do we have any idea as to how many defenders and knights the AIs have? Do we know all resource locations? Do we have enough troops to just go and kill everything? Is it worth to increase the luxury slide to try to pacify the unhappiness?

Our score graph looks nice but the power graph seems to be essentially even with Peanuts and I'd hate to lose to them for the second time in a row.

 

[akots]

I took a long look at the save and we have many troops, might be enough, but logistics is horrible. Chinese and German fronts look OK. We also can ally Mali against Inca for 900 gold but it might be not needed. Both Mongols and Mali look rather powerful and they both have some wondering units on or closely near our captured cities. IMHO, we better start the wars with them as rapidly as possible and top priority might be to try and unhook their iron so they cannot build knight and nastly crossbows. Inca is the only one who can currently build knights however. We have slightly more cats than we need and slightly less samurai. I'd be more comfortable with additional 10 samurai which I would try to rush somehow even at the cost of some essential population.

It seems that situation with Inca is rather sticky indeed. Apparently, Obormot consistently underestimates them and I again have to deal with their wondering units. They can though recapture another city with their knight which would add a few points to war weariness.

Logistics with ships is another problem. The ships on the western chain seem to be positioned to deliver troops to China while it apparently has to be moved down south to deliver troops to Mali while part of the ships have to be moved to the inner sea to bring troops from Egypt to either Mongols or Mali. Eastern chain might be moved up north to deliver troops to the outer Mongol cities.

On domestic front everything seems to be more or less OK. Osaka can certainly be whipped and there are still some forests to chop. Either way, in case of dare financial consequences of capturing too many cities, we can revolt to theocracy and some religion (Hinduism is an option) to whip more experienced units. This would cause some delay with conquest. War weariness is getting ridiculous and only a slight break is anticipated after capturing/razing the last continental German city with subsequent cease fire or might be even peace.

Again repeating, I suck at estimation but we might try to win within the next 25-30 turns. 20 might be feasible with a very good luck and very accurate gameplay. I wish we have knights but Guilds would be virtually impossible to research with our economy. Engineering can be an option as well but certainly of lesser importance. IMHO, we should have captured less cities while trying to research guilds. Samurai are good but too slow while using ships to deliver them is nice, logistics on this kind of map is very messy.

It seems that Peanuts have delayed the onset of their conquest probably because they wanted to have some knights to help samurai which might be a very reasonable indea. This means they needed to rush less ships and are able to move healed units to the frontline substantially faster while in our case it would take some time especially without Engineering.

Overall, again, it will be a very close race.

 

[akots]

Isn't it in fact a good thing? The west (Egypt/Germany/China) is all but subjugated, and now we need to transfer the last and biggest wave of samurais (resulting from poprushing) to Inca/Mongol lands via the eastern route.

There is a fair amount of troops in these Egyptian lands and more can be chopeed or pop-rushed. They better be moved to attack the inner coastal cities so the ships would have to be relocated.

 

[Obormot]

I think we should be able to finish in 20 turns. The approximate plans on each front:

Inca: We need to transport some more samurais to the incan front, to reinforce the nrothern stack a bit. The southern stack is OK and should be able to take Cuzco. After landing more units in inca we should extend the eastern shipchain to mongolia and land units there.

Germany/Mali: The units in Germany can attck Mali after taking the last german city next turn, and there are some ships there to help with logisticks, so that front looks OK. Maybe rushing a few more galeons in the inner city cities will help.The only thing to watch for is a malinese city in former germany that has 3 longbows and a crossbow. We should send some reinforcements from home to protect it.

China: China should be conquered quickly, their remaining forces are weak. The main problem there is the shortage of galeons. Remaining chinese cities can be reached by land relatively quickly, but to attack mongolia and to transport units from Egypt we need more galeons. We can build some at home and maybe rush a few more in egyptian cities.

 

[Balbes]

akots's 10 turns will decide the outcome of the game, with Lexad and me just mopping up any remaining opposition. Save for any major setbacks, the game should be over in approximately 18 turns. The deadline for the building of new units is ~10 turns from now (even earlier for remote cities like Madrid), those built later won't get to the front in time. So it is akots's task to shape our army to its final size by massive poprushing.

I'm still in favor of the swing-back 2-pronged attack movement. Instead of Germany, now captured, we can now move through Mali peacefully to attack the Incas from the east; and then return to Mail from their west, as a new batch of troops whipped in Egypt and Germany attacks simultaneously from the east.

 

[akots]

...

I'm still in favor of the swing-back 2-pronged attack movement. Instead of Germany, now captured, we can now move through Mali peacefully to attack the Incas from the east; and then return to Mail from their west, as a new batch of troops whipped in Egypt and Germany attacks simultaneously from the east.

Since we don't have Engineering, that would take too long time and is out of the question.

... Remaining chinese cities can be reached by land relatively quickly, but to attack mongolia and to transport units from Egypt we need more galeons. We can build some at home and maybe rush a few more in egyptian cities.

IMHO, we have a great shortage of samurai, we cannot afford to rush more ships, may be one-two galleons at maximum.

 

[Balbes]

Since we don't have Engineering, that would take too long time and is out of the question.

Actually it is the quicker plan. We'll invest some time into setting up, and will be rewarded with a much quicker war. At present we have a shortage of troops in Inca land and (soon-to-be) oversaturation in Egypt. A more uniform distribution would allow us to engage the enemy across the entire continent at once. Moving the excess troops from Egypt through Mali to Inca will, indeed, cost some time but not much because we can use their roads. On the other hand, the new troops attacking from Egypt and Germany will be able to engage much sooner, and only advance 1/2 of the way before meeting the other front.

edit: To illustrate: if we rush samurais in, say, Thebes and Pi-Rameses right now, it'll take them 9 turns to reach the closest enemy city of Kumbi Saleh. If by that time our frontline has smashed Kumbi Saleh and advanced further, they'll now need to move further to try to catch up... So the only possibility for these new troops to be useful at all, is bypassing Kumbi Saleh now, and leaving it for them to capture 9 turns later.

 

[Balbes]

To put it in yet another way, it's 100% certain that Kumbi Saleh will be already in our hands in 10 turns from now. The matter in question - It will happen according to either of the two scenarios:

1) First wave bypasses KS, advances deep, second wave takes KS.
2) Frist wave takes KS, is delayed by the siege, advances not so deep, second wave is too late and has no battles to fight.