SGOTM 02 - The Real Ms. Beyond

I'm home now, but won't be able to play until after I get home from basketball tonight. Actually, depending on how late it is and how tired I am, it might even be till TOMORROW night till I can play :satan:

As for why the game will be over after Astronomy, it's because we're going for fastest conquest.

It's going to take 30ish turns before our borders expand, so no need for Mining until then. Actually, Mysticism / Mining might work out just well - we'll have to see what it looks like after Mysticism comes in.

Or maybe I'll just play another turn and then post and then wait till tomorrow :lol:
 
As for why only those techs:

First, because AlanH will call the game over long before we get any more turns run. :lol:

But in all likelihood, if it's not too difficult to get to every other civ, e.g. all are on the second continent, then we should be able to take out everybody with catapults and swords/axes. Astronomy is in case we have to cross the ocean.

This is only Monarch, after all.

Edit: Crossposted with regoarrarr. Go ahead, take your time.
 
Take your time, regoarrarr. If you can play just one turn, that'd be great too. Another turn should keep us occupied for a week or two :lol:

Maybe having the slowest start will mean we'll have the fastest finish? ;)
 
I'm predicting that the game will last 5 turns. On the fifth turn, we will reach the plains hill with the settler and there will be a bear right there.

It should be fine though, because by then it will be mid-October.
 
Okay okay you folks. I'm tired, but I'm committed to the cause! So, at the expense of our posts/turns ratio, here's a few turns.

First off, I change to Mysticism as suggested. I then hit enter. I move the Settler SE, and then we have

duh1.jpg


I think we're being hit over the head as to where is the best place to settle. I move the settler NE and then the warrior 1 hill down the chain and

duh2.jpg


Yeah I think the place to settle is pretty obvious. I move the settler onto the hill 1S of the gold. The plan was to then move NE-NW onto the settling spot, which would be just as good as moving onto the gold hill and then the settling hill, but expose more of the terrain.

But then I see this

hut.jpg


I figure, with all the obvious help that has been given to us, this hut was probably pre-programmed with something good. Maybe even a settler! So I take a risk and pop it with the settler.

It was barbs. They ate our settler :(

The good news is that we're still in the game. Plus, without the drain of a 2nd city, we'll probably tech pretty quickly. I stop here to give us a chance to figure out what we want to do. Sorry about that guys!
 
Oh, about that whole our settler getting eaten by barbs part, that was a lie :lol: I should have paused more for dramatic effect, but I've got to go to bed and I didn't have the heart to leave the joke running all the way till (my) morning, in case somebody did something crazy.

Instead I moved NE-NW onto the hill. Unfortunately or fortunately as the case may be, I didn't realize that oasises (oases?) have 2 movement. So that delayed the founding of Osaka by one turn. Unfortunately, because it's never good to delay things, but fortunately because that gave us 1 more turn at full research.

In any case, as soon as I saw that we'd have another gems (and gold) within our borders without an expansion, I should have switched off Mysticism to Mining I think. I didn't think about it until I was on top of the settling spot.

Here's the lands as of 3850. I have (will) upload the save to the webpage so that everyone can take a look at it. I have tentatively set it to a worker first (at 18 turns) and I think we should do Mining first at 16 turns.

3850.jpg


Thoughts?

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm2/The_Real_Ms_Beyond_SG002_BC3850_01.Civ4SavedGame

We also need to decide if we should pop the hut with the warrior.
 
Wow. Somebody set us up nicely. Two gems, swimming sheep, rice, gold and two oas... more than one oasis. Obviously, they thought that the maintenance cost of our second city was too cruel :)

We even have plains hills to keep Snaproll happy!

The new location changes everything in terms of technology order and etc. I guess Mysticism isn't much of a requirement so soon. I think going for Mining is a good idea. Either that, or sticking to the hunting and archery plan. I'd like to hear more from the rest of you guys before I sum it all up. Good work regoarrarr :)
 
This is probably THE best city ever. Just my thoughts.
 
We have a giant overflow of food there. Two oasis, two floodplains, sheep and rice.

I took a look at the save, and noticed that it will take 16 turns to research, and the worker will take 18 turns. Therefore, Mining is the best choice for now. After that, we might want to go for Hunting and Archery, or Mysticism, or more worker techs. What do you guys think? Hunting and Archery are 13 and 19 turns respectively.
 
Ummm, yeah: I think we were supposed to find this spot.

I actually still like the thought of building an obelisk, if only for fog suppression. I'm going by memory, but won't it take 11 turns to build the obelisk, and 11 turns to grow to size 2 while working an oasis? With raging barbs and a border pop bringing more coast and a hill into the city limits, I'm still in favor of that plan. We'll want all that bonus food out on the borders too.

I won't be able to look at the save before I head out on Friday for the weekend. I'm wary of popping the hut with the warrior, though. I don't know what raging barbs does for likelihood of barbs from huts. I'd feel fine if we had an archer in the city and one on the hill (and something else to pop the hut). Since we'll be going for Archery, we could actually build a scout (!). It would be of some value for scouting (pun intended) out some fine neighbor's lands. Assuming they're nice enough to open borders with us for a while.

But I we'd have to build the scout quick. If a barb troop passes by the hut, I think it will take up residence there. Then we'd have to axe(man) him.

Just about crossposted with Kodii. My thinking: Switch to Mining, Back to Mysticism, then on to Hunting/Archery.

I might have to whip up the shadow game: with gems and a gold mine, we might be able to get Bronze and then still fall back to Archery in time to defend against incoming barb troops. It'd be close though.

Edit: I think we want the Gems before the gold so we can keep growing while working the mine. We might even want both gems before working the gold.
 
Well it will take us 8 turns to research Mysticism, plus 15 turns to build the obelisk, and that's 15 turns if we work the grassland forest (1 hammer) instead of the oasis (0 hammers).

Anyone care to do some tests on worker at size 1 vs. waiting till size 2?

In the worldbuilder, can you make a hut give a particular thing? Or are they always random?

And I agree with the gems before the gold. I think we go Mining / Bronze. With 2-3 warriors, I think we should be fine till we get axes. We're agressive so we start with Combat 1, and I think that if we play it smart, we should be fine against even barb warriors when they show up. By the time barb archers show up we should have axes
 
I'll see if I can whip up a shadow test later this morning.

The only thing I fell pretty confident about is: start with a worker immediately and make sure Mining is finished before the worker completes. According to Kodii, this will work if we halt work on Mysticism until after Mining.

I was wrong about the obelisk: it's 30H (not 15H) on normal.

I'll test to see if we can still get Archers by a safe date assuming that we have no Copper. If we can, then let's go for Bronze because with this much start alteration, maybe Gyathaar was super-kind to us!
 
Just a quick note: I won't have time to try out any shadow games.

My gut feeling is:

Research: Mining, Mysticism (complete it), Hunting, Archery, Bronzeworking

Build: Worker, Warrior, Obelisk (if Mysticism is finished), Warriors until Archery. If we can't complete a warrior, work on Stonehenge with the intent of cashing in when some other civ completes it.

A lot depends on if/where Copper shows up.
 
regoarrarr (just played
BeefontheBone (UP!)
EL_OSO (on deck)
Kodii
Compromise
Ruff_Hi
Snaproll
Zalson

Are we going 24/48?
 
Okay. Here we go. First off, I switch off to Mysticism. Everything else looks good. I choose not to pop that hut. Though, in retrospect, I probably should have. I explore off to the NE.

In 3790, Izzy's scout comes off from the South and says Hi. I declare peace. Though she'll probably have to be the first to die.

There's another hut off to the NE - I pop that and it gives 33 gold. That will be enough to turn up research some. I hold off on that for now.

3520 - Spot a barb lion. I fortify in the forest and it impales itself on me. Warrior is now 1.6/2 with 1 XP.

3490 - Kyoto's border expands. We see some islandy goodness off to the north.

3400 - Mining comes in. I change back to Mysticism, and raise science to 100%. Worker and Mysticism, both due in 3.

3310 - And here we are. I stop for now. We have a few decisions to make. And as much fun as I've had leading things off, it's time for us to turn the reins over to BeefOnTheBone.

kyoto3310.jpg


osaka3310.jpg


Here's the decisions.

1. Research. At our current sustainable rate 60% (0 gpt with 9 gp in the bank), Bronze will take 27 turns. Hunting will take 10, and Archery 15 after that. Both those numbers will come down once the gems (and gold) come online, as well as when Kyoto grows. Gems online in 6 turns. I lean towards Bronze. Even if we don't have any copper, by that time, we should have 3 warriors or so, which should be enough. I know we're all remembering Epic 4, but a) that was Deity, and b) Sirian personally edited in extra barbs.

2. Build in Osaka. I have it set to Warrior (due in 11). The other option would be Obelisk (23 turns)

3. Build in Kyoto. The options are another workboat or a warrior. Initially we said warrior, but I wonder now if we want another workboat to explore.

4. Alternatively, we could spend a few turns exploring with the one that just was built (it just came off the presses last turn). It would be good to meet some more civs to lower tech costs, as well as pick up the circumnavigation bonus.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm2/The_Real_Ms_Beyond_SG002_BC3310_01.Civ4SavedGame
 
Nice work, regoarrarr. I love it when the tech and the build coincide perfectly.

1. Research. At our current sustainable rate 60% (0 gpt with 9 gp in the bank), Bronze will take 27 turns. Hunting will take 10, and Archery 15 after that. Both those numbers will come down once the gems (and gold) come online, as well as when Kyoto grows. Gems online in 6 turns. I lean towards Bronze. Even if we don't have any copper, by that time, we should have 3 warriors or so, which should be enough. I know we're all remembering Epic 4, but a) that was Deity, and b) Sirian personally edited in extra barbs.

With so much commerce potential, I can be talked into Bronze. Slavery will be nice at any rate.

2. Build in Osaka. I have it set to Warrior (due in 11). The other option would be Obelisk (23 turns)

I like the obelisk. With Isabella running around, we're not likely to get any more huts, so we just need warriors on fog busting duty. The other civs will find us if Osaka's on their island.

3. Build in Kyoto. The options are another workboat or a warrior. Initially we said warrior, but I wonder now if we want another workboat to explore.

Since there's someplace to go, I say the second build should be a workboat that gets sent off to explore. It should check to see if there is a route possibility in one direction (east?) before heading the other (west?). That way, we'll know if we want to send another workboat off to explore the other way.

4. Alternatively, we could spend a few turns exploring with the one that just was built (it just came off the presses last turn). It would be good to meet some more civs to lower tech costs, as well as pick up the circumnavigation bonus.

I think the fish is too valuable, especially if we go for Bronze (and can rush another boat!), so I like using the first boat for Fish.


Sweet. This is likely my last message until next Monday. Good luck until then: To fail to plan is to plan to fail!
 
Nice work regoarrarr! Everything looks good so far.

SUMMARY POST

regoarrarr
BeefontheBone (up)
EL_OSO (on deck)
Kodii
Compromise
Ruff_Hi
Snaproll
Zalson

Diplomacy:
We've met Isabella, meaning she's probably the closest and will be the first to be eliminated.

Technology:
Either Hunting + Archery or Bronze Working. What do the rest of you think? I think with a hill start and warriors, we can go for BW.

Settling:
We've settled Osaka in a beautiful location. Kyoto was already settled. Our next city (Tokyo?) will be founded beside copper, if we don't have any by Osaka.

Builds:
Kyoto either builds another workboat for exploration, or a warrior for happiness.
Osaka will build an obelisk (?)

Religion:
Still going for Confucianism or Taoism?

Great People:
Run two scientists in Kyoto after Writing + Libraries

Civics:
Switch to Slavery once BW comes in
 
Righty ho, I've got it - will play in a bit once I've had breakfast.
 
OK, here we go.

IHT - 3310BC:

Wonder how many turns I'm supposed to be playing. Oh well, I'll probably reach some critical decision by about 10 or 15 anyway :)

Decide to research Bronze Working - it's only a couple more turns than hunting and archery, we've no need of camps as yet but we can make lots of use of Slavery. Workboat in Kyoto hooks up a fish for +3f, it'll grow in another 5 turns.

Warrior rests to heal up.

T1 - 3280 BC:

Izzie converts to Buddhism (quel suprise).

T2 - 3250 BC:

A lion attacks our warrior and is splatted.

T3 - 3220 BC:

Hold off on promoting the warrior; he only needs a turn to heal anyway.

T5 - 3160 BC:

With Kyoto growing to work another tile, BW is down to 16 turns (I used the other 9 gold in the treasury over the last few turns too). There's a bear north of Osaka we might need to be wary of.

T6 - 3130 BC:

Osaka's worker completes its gems mine. Switching to that tile slows growth to another 8 turns (from 5) but allows us to increase science to 70% and get BW in another 11 turns (4 less than otherwise) and speeds up the warrior under construction there by a turn (now 4). Worker starts on the gold mine.

T8 - 3070 BC:

Warrior runs into a lion when avoiding a bear - promote him to combat II since he's in the open and we don't want to lose him.

T9 - 3040 BC:

Improbably, he still gets himself killed. That's a bit of a blow, we needed him as an explorer. I'm tempted to explore with the one Osaka's about to finish.

T10 - 3010 BC:

Osaka completes Warrior, I start another and move this one to the north to try and reveal some more tiles in order to maximse our knowledge of copper sites.

Not a lot's happened here - I'm going to play 15. Did we ever decide on a specific number anyway? reg seems to have played 23 turns at 30 years/turn if I'm not mistaken.

T13 - 2920 BC:

Kyoto grows to size 4 and is unhealthy. Erk!

Gold mine built, start a road on it on the grounds that there's a nice city location over that way (which may or may not have copper) and there's not a lot else to do other than connect the two resources until we get a border pop.

Warrior manages to end his turn next to a bear, but in a forest - odds are slightly in our favour but not as good as they were with the lion earlier...

T14 - 2890 BC:

Warrior lives, needs a few turns to rest. 1 xp for a bear seems a little stingy, although maybe I'm used to the Str 4 ones in FfH. Osaka grows to 2, works the oasis. Will grow again in 12, warrior in 3.

I'm going to stop here so we can have some discussion about when to build a settler. A Settler would take 25 turns if we start now, if we let it get to size 3 first we'll have an extra unit to defend with and part of an obelisk built (has to be next build unless we do another warrior, we're nearly out of decent tiles to use), plus a load of extra commerce from working both mines while it's being built, and it'll be down to 21 turns. We'll also know where the copper is by then - if there's some at Osaka already then we might want to delay a bit further and get some units out there and more culture.

Given that we're on raging barbs and I was unlucky with that warrior, I say we wait for size 3 before starting a settler - 2 more warriors and start an obelisk in between?

I'd also scout a bit with the next workboat - the unhealthiness in Kyoto isn't a huge issue (it still grows really fast even before the WB's settled). That said, those islands don't look like they go anywhere to me - there could of course be an island chain to the mainland on the other side, though, in which case scouting it and getting Sailing (and a coastal city) would be a huge boost to us.

Overview pic (my ones of the two cities failed to grab the interface. Gah!):

iviewcapturedate1108200cj6.jpg


And the save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm2/The_Real_Ms_Beyond_SG002_BC2890_01.Civ4SavedGame
 
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