SGOTM 02 - The Real Ms. Beyond

[Compromise]

Compromise: Theres still a workboat out there exploring. In other words, Kyoto has made three workboats.

Sweet! Thanks for the clarification.

Also, I'm not sure if it was clear from my post, I'm talking about putting our "Copper Access" city (Tokyo, I think) on the plains hill east of Osaka. It'd be closer....

More thoughts later tonight.

 

[ruff_hi]

no no no no no no no no no no (is that toooo many?)

the 3rd city goes ... see screenshot ...

copper with no expansion, fish, coast, yum.

Can I throw a spanner in the works ... how do we feel about picking up hunting (6 turns) for scouts (4) so that we can map out out island more.

PS - just moved to windows mode after getting a new monitor but I cannot seem to automatically take screen shots - have to flip to paint and paste the suckers then give them a file name (yuk). Anyone have a solution to this?

 

[Kodii]

The problem of putting Tokyo there is that we need to wait for the borders to expand before we can connect the copper. That is, we need to build an obelisk. Which leads me to ask, why is Tokyo not the capital of Japan in Civ4? Was Kyoto the "ancient" capital or something? If so, Beijing shouldn't be the capital of China ... nor should Washington be the capital of America... nor...

Edit: Oops, crossposted with Ruff_Hi

I'm not sure if scouts is the best idea. In Epic 4, I could barely navigate a scout around the continent without it running into a barb before long.

 

[ruff_hi]

Osaka ...

"Osaka was formerly known as Naniwa. Before the Nara Period, when the capital used to be moved with the reign of each new emperor, Naniwa was once Japan's capital city, the first one ever known.

In the 16th century, Toyotomi Hideyoshi chose Osaka as the location for his castle, and the city may have become Japan's capital if Tokugawa Ieyasu had not terminated the Toyotomi lineage after Hideyoshi's death and moved his government to distant Edo (Tokyo). " from here.

What was the first Capital of the US? When did it become the US - 1776?

 

[Compromise]

Okay, maybe I'll be less of an idiot today. (Been thinking about Epic 7, where Hatshepsut has the Creative trait and doesn't have to worry about border pops.)

I'm on board for the Copper city location. Our most difficult thing will be protecting the road back to Osaka. Any desire to look for horses, anyone?

 

[regoarrarr]

OT: I think Philadelphia was the first capital of the US, and yes, 1776 was when the Declaration of Independence was signed, so I guess you could start counting then.

I think Animal Husbrandy for horses makes sense - we need to hook up the sheep anyways. But Writing first so we can hire some scientists in Kyoto.

From what it sounds like, the consensus is to start the settler at size 3, which should be in 2-3 turns. That will get it built just in time for it to settle in time for the worker to start the mine

 

[Kodii]

OT: Then why isn't Osaka the capital (it might be in our game ), and how come you can found both Edo and Tokyo

That plan with the settler sounds good for me.

 

[Compromise]

Okay, I'm up. Planning to play my turns later this afternoon. 10-15 turns, depending on how things look and what happens. Will keep checking in, just in case anyone has any last minute suggestions.

 

[regoarrarr]

I think we're good. Probably a turn or two on a warrior, then start on settler the turn that Osaka hits size 3. Keep the worker building a road to the copper mine, including roading the copper, which can be done even before setling.

I think techwise you'll finish us up on Writing. If you finish it, I think start on Animal Husb.

 

[ruff_hi]

SUMMARY POST

regoarrarr
BeefontheBone
Kodii
Compromise (up)
ruff_hi (on deck)
Snaproll
Zalson
EL_OSO

Diplomacy:
We've met Isabella. We will decide whether to eliminate her and take her religion, or to keep her has a close ally, if Buddhism spreads to us.

Technology:
We've got Mysticism, Mining, BW and Pottery. Writing is up next. If we want to found our own religion, we're going to want to go to Code of Laws, or Philosophy. We've also decided that we want Archery at some point, to have Archers as fogbusters? (Edit: We're also going to want AH and Agriculture at some point too (Edit again: And Masonry if we want to work the stone))

Settling:
We've settled Osaka. We're going to want Tokyo one tile NE of the copper, one tile SE of the stone. That way, we'll fetch the copper and stone right away, then fish when borders expand.

Builds:
Kyoto will continue to build workboats. Whip (?) a library when Writing comes in.

Religion:
We want one. Whether we take it from Isabella, or we found it on our own. CoL or Philosophy if we want to found our own.

Great People:
Run 2 scientists in Kyoto once the library is completed.

Civics:
We've switched to Slavery. No civics show up for quite a while, so we don't need to discuss that for now.

Here is the Summary (TM) post from last page.

 

[Kodii]

To that last summary post that ruff_hi quoted, add the things that regoarrarr said two posts above this one. I think you're good to go

 

[Compromise]

Oookaaayyy.

I didn't catch Beef's post a few pages back until I just went back and looked. Gentlemen, I think we have made some missteps. I was wondering why we were training warriors instead of archers in the screenshots, and when I got the save, it became clear: We don't have archery! I think this is going to make it an uphill battle here on Raging Barbs. (I guess I thought we were going for Archery if we didn't have Copper in Osaka's borders.)

But hey, it'll be fun anyway.

I'm going back to the snail's pace of posting for a moment. Upon opening up the game from the last save, I moved the warrior who is guarding our worker to the top of the hill so as to bust more fog. Also, I'm very worried about going for Writing before getting Archery, so I changed our research to Hunting, but set the Science slider to 0% so we can talk about it.

In the interturn, we received this interesting bit of world news:



We're number 4 in culture, and Isabella, founder of Buddhism, is only #2!

Okay, on with the real news. Here's what I'm presented with after the interturn:



Three barb warriors have appeared and are headed to us. Our warrior has finished in Osaka. We're a turn away from growing there. In Kyoto, no new news yet.

Okay...I'm calling an emergency cabinet meeting. Here's the situation as I see it.

1) We're probably alone on the second island with Isabella. This is bad. First, it focuses her anger (aggressive AIs, remember) on us. Second, it means there aren't many AI troops/cities out there to keep the barbs at bay.

2) We're about 15 turns, maybe less (depends on whether or not we can keep the mines open with the barbs inbound), away from Archery if we continue down that route.

3) We've got *no* strike force at all. Warriors vs. warriors is risky.

4) The attack/defense plan we're following now relies on a warrior defense until we get another city founded to get Copper. We're some 25 turns from a Settler. A few turns to move it. We've got a tough-to-defend road to our copper that we have to move our Settler along. It's long, and it's on flatland.

5) We essentially have no fogbuster troops in place. There are a couple forested hills around, be we've got no one on them.

I suggest the following course of action, but I'm not confident about it. First, I think we need more troops. We need to get warriors in place on the forested hills to the south and the east (the latter near our new city site). This will delay our settler while we build at least a couple more warriors, but I think we need to do this. I'm sure we can make the road, but can we defend it?

Second, I think we need to go for Archery before anything else. We probably won't be able to defend our existing mines with Warriors.

Third, I guess I'd build the road out a little further with the worker, then bring him back to get the other Gems mine going. It should be in range by then. He'll probably be mostly on mine-repair duty until we can establish a perimeter that's outside our city limits.

Thoughts/Comments? I can go ahead and play these turns out, but I think this is a good time for discussion. If there is a consensus to push on with the previous plan, I'll do my damndest. It might be just the risky move needed to vault us into the leaderboard.

But if it fails, we're competing for the spoons.

Edit: who was it that suggested founding on the Copper? Might not be a bad idea. The city site would suck, but it couldn't be pillaged without bringing down the city.

 

[ruff_hi]

I think this calls for SUPERMAN, cleverly disguised as men with pointy sticks. I vote we go the archery route - remember, barbs get techs if EVERYONE knows it and soon, everyone will know copper working.

 

[regoarrarr]

How many warriors do we have?

 

[regoarrarr]

My initial thoughts are that if we wanted to go the Hunting / Archery path, that we should have gone down that instead of researching BW. For better or worse, we've gone down the axe path, and I think that we should stick with it. The fastest way to a bad/slow game is to keep changing what we're doing.

I still vote for settling on the copper. It's hard to say without the save posted, but how fast can we get the settler out and on the copper (with a road). Add a few turns for the first axe to be produced (by whip if necessary). Once we get an axe or two, we shouldn't have any more barb problems.

And as for Isabella and the raging AIs, that's an even better reason to get axes sooner rather than later. At this stage in the game, 5-6 axes could wipe out Spain. The more we delay it, the harder it will be.

I think the fastest way to a fast conquest is controlling our entire starting continent ASAP.

 

[Kodii]

We should have four warriors. One in Kyoto, two in Osaka, one defending the Edit:WORKER. I may be wrong.

I'm going to have to say that it might be a good idea to settle on the copper. In the long run, it might be the best decision.

 

[Compromise]

Kodii is right about the warrior count. We've got three in the barb theater.

I'm tending to lean toward agreeing with regoarrarr. We're sort of committed to the axemen instead of archers approach, unless we're willing to backtrack in the name of safety.

I'm not really worried about losing Osaka, though I am concerned about getting the mines around it pillaged.

What about stockpiling cash until we can use it to upgrade warriors to axemen? We can probably save about 25turns*14gpt=350 gold by the time our settler can settle on the copper.

Also, what do people think about another warrior build before the Settler? I'm not sure, personally. I'd like to push back the fog a bit, but we probably want that copper flowing ASAP.

Is the consensus now: found directly on the copper? Two more roads out there, assuming they don't get pillaged, would let us found the Copper city on the turn after it completes, and we'd need those roads anyway to bring copper back to Osaka.

I'm still mulling it over, but I'm planning to play the rest of my turns tomorrow, so keep any opinions flowing.

 

[regoarrarr]

How much is a warrior->axeman upgrade? Might be worth doing one to get an axe up ASAP, but I'd like to get Writing before turning down science, so we can get a library going in Kyoto and hire some scientists.

 

[Compromise]

For a heathen people, we have found exceptional favor with the gods.

Behold:

2470BC:
I decide that we're going the whole hog down the axeman route, so I switch back to Writing, still at 0% science. Our fate depends on this decision, and I hope it turns out well!

I notice that Kyoto is working on a workboat. I put that on hold and start a Granary; that's like doubling your food yield!

I move the Worker to the hill that the Warrior is keeping watch on the east from. (In retrospect, I'm not sure that was the best move, but it's what I did.)

The newly created warrior moved into position to guard the gold mine and fortified there.

In what I think was a stroke of genius (your opinion may differ), I decide to poprush another warrior in Osaka. This dropped us to size 1, but we had enough food already stored to grow to size 2 the next turn no matter what we harvested.

[Interturn: The barb warriors advance]

2440BC:
First, our exploring workboat discovers a Whale near Stone Island. Not the greatest resource, but I'm sure we'll put it to use eventually.



I poprush the Granary in Kyoto. The people there are not happy. They will have to learn to live with it.

Osaka grows back to size 2. I have to micromanage the tile governor because he wants us working the forest rather than the gold mine!

Our newly rushed warrior moves over with his buddy on the gold mine. I want that commerce protected!

Here's the screenshot (and it's scary):



I hit Enter and hope for the best....

2410BC:



Success! Both of our gold protectors win, and they barely take any damage at all! Too bad one didn't promote, but still, great news. More barbs are poised to take a shot at either the gold or the city next turn. We'll see what they choose.

I cross my fingers and hit Enter again....

2380BC:

More success! Both warriors are victorious again and can promote. I promote the most healed one with Shock and move him to the grass forest hill to bust some fog and serve as our southern point. The other I leave in place to heal after promoting with Shock. Normally, I don't like using Shock on Warriors, but these are desperate times.

Also, our workboat has revealed the last discoverable sea tile over near Kyoto:



It's another whale. So, we've got all the sea resources available to us...eventually.

2350BC:

More barb warriors appear in the interturn, but I'm feeling a little better about things. Did I mention that I started on a Settler in Osaka with the overflow from the whipped warrior? If not, I should have.

Our worker continues in the east by starting a road on the grasslands there. The warrior continues to keep watch from the hill.

I switch to 100% science since we have 80 gold in the bank, are losing 10gpt at 100%, and can get Writing in 8 turns. That assumes, of course, that we can continue to work the gold and the gems with mines on them.

2320BC

During the interturn, a barb moves onto our precious Gems. I decide we need to keep on pace with our research, and so commit one of our warriors to strike force duty. He's not quite healed, but he does have Shock:



He has a 76% chance of success. Will that be enough?

To be continued...

 

[Compromise]

2320BC (continued)

Yes! The warrior wins, but drops to 1.2 health. With his second movement point, I put him back in the city to heal

The exploring workboat returns from scouting out the coastal reaches of Kyoto and spends the rest of its days fishing Fish.

I have to micromanage Osaka again to get the workers back on the Gems (recently saved by a Warrior) instead of the oasis. While working on a Settler, there is no food/shield difference and a big commerce difference. This is an auto-governor flaw; be sure to watch for it as the game continues.

2290BC

A successful defense of Osaka lets our warrior there promote with Shock, while the Gemsaver heals.

I take a quick glance at Isabella. With no diplomacy modifiers, she is Annoyed with us. Soon, she'll have good reason to be!

The grasslands road in the east completes. We have no further work over there until our Settler arrives.

2260BC

I move the worker near the River Gems. Those will soon be in range of Osaka, and I figure we might need them if one of our other mines is destroyed. I actually move to the plains nearby so I can escape to Osaka if needed.

2230BC

A most unpleasant development!:



Both of our mines have barb warriors move onto them! Our Gemsaver warrior has just healed and has a 90% chance to protect the Gems again. But I don't think we can afford to protect the gold. Oh well. Let's roll the dice and see what happens....

[Real life emergency...must break for a bit.]