SGOTM 02 - The Real Ms. Beyond

You're killing me! We're waiting on your turns!

Eta: You've probably already played your turns, but it seems like since they are ignoring our warrior on a forested hill (2S of Osaka), if we can clear the gold mine, it makes sense to pull him back and fortify him on the gold.
 
2230BC (continued)

More good fortune! We win, but are unable to protect the gold.

We hit Enter and watch our gold mine go up in smoke...

2200BC



Or not?! In a shocking move, the barbs attack our warrior on the hill instead of razing our gold mine. The mine is safe! Repeat: the gold mine is safe!

Actually, another barb impales itself on the forest warrior too.

Our worker is free to start the river Gem mine. I move the Gemsaver toward the hill to the southeast of Osaka in the hopes of busting more fog

2170BC:

Our workboat finishes in Kyoto and promptly sets nets up around the second crabs. Not knowing what to do there, I start Stonehenge in the hopes of getting some gold when someone else finishes it. I continue to grow population there for the imminent library.

A barb warrior appears in the southeast, so I delay fogbusting and move Gemsaver onto the gold mine

2140BC:

Fortify warrior on the gold mine.

2110BC:

Writing is discovered!

I promptly set Kyoto to build a library and pull one citizen off a crabs so that we'll produce 3 hammers. We'll grow to 6 next turn and be able to whip the library with 132H from 3 pop. Beautiful.

The barb warrior has moved onto the Gems again. Gemsaver has 90.1% chance of killing him....

And he does. But he sends my heart *racing*!!! He survives with only 0.1 health left!



This is just unnerving: that was about the best offensive battle we could supply. Adrenaline is pouring through my veins.

2080BC:

Somebody somewhere discovers Judaism while an attack on Osaka gives another experience point to our guarding warrior there.



I poprush the Library in Kyoto which gets rid of two unhappies and the temporary worker.

2050BC:

The library completes and I promptly assign two scientist specialists. They can be fed by a single Fish and the city center. Since there's nothing useful to build there, I go back to Stonehenge.

Note: I've got research set to Hunting for either Archery or Animal Husbandry. That can be changed to whatever the team wants.

Also, here's a shot of Osaka's screen:



I switched from the Gems near Osaka to the river Gems that just completed. This is one extra commerce per turn.

Note that the Settler can be rushed on the next turn! And now that we've got two gems mines to work (so we can continue to grow while we earn commerce, I think we should do so.

That's where we're at now. A few thoughts:

1) We need to decide what to research next.

2) I think the warrior on the forested hill should move north on this turn so as to protect the Gems mine from the warrior who will likely move there on the next interturn.

Real life beckons; strongly. I'm attaching the game save here, but haven't uploaded it to the SGOTM server.

More opinions later

Edit: Sorry for the delay regoarrarr (I bet it was just like playing the turns!); hope it all came out okay!

2nd edit: Removed the save game link from this post. I only put it here because I am ********. (Frequent readers of this thread will learn nothing new from the preceding sentence.)
 
Wow, great turns :)

Do we still want to found a religion? If not, then don't go for CoL just yet. We may also want to consider shutting off research for a while to get the gold to upgrade our warriors. More from me later :) (playing an MP game)
 
Another chance to make some quick remarks.

Now that Osaka's borders have popped, I agree with regoarrarr: We can move a warrior to the Gold Mine to protect it. Before that, I kept the warrior there mostly for fogbusting. The defensive bonus was just a ... um ... bonus.

Some things to note for the next person:

In Kyoto, we'll probably want to grow when we can support another happy citizen. That'll get us another 2 commerce and allow us to grow more.

I think we should stockpile gold and convert one warrior, probably one near Osaka, to an axeman.

I recommend settling directly on the Copper and just setting the build there to axeman.

When settling that Copper city, make sure to move the warrior from the eastern hill to the city and fortify.

We probably want to give at least some of our warriors the Medic promotion.

I recommend an axeman ASAP in Osaka too.

While I don't really care about founding a religion (I think Isabella nabbed Judaism too; I forgot to mention that she switched to Organized Religion on the turn after Judaism founded), our maintenance cost in Osaka is 10gpt! We could save half that each turn with a courthouse there. So, Code of Laws might be useful to us.

Another tech possibility is Sailing so that we could settle near the cows near Kyoto. CoL would also let us run as many science specialists as we want in Kyoto. (I'm not sold on this possibility, but thought I'd bring it up in case it seems like a good idea.)

I think barb archers will appear before 1500 whether we research Archery or not. We'll need to be ready. Our warriors will only be useful as medics then.

Other than CoL (and maybe Sailing), do we need any techs before we go a-conquering?

Priorities: gold for upgrading, then CoL. Then build axemen and kick butt!

Let's waste Isabella, only keep Madrid, and get Courthouses everywhere. (Unless some other city is awesome, of course.)

As a final note: I can't believe only Isabella is on "our" continent! I hope Madrid is on the coast.
 
Thanks for posting that in the right place, Zalson; I figured regoarrarr would have a stroke or something if I didn't get things up promptly. Next time, I'll try to do better. :blush:

Also, I guess this is as good a place as any to say:

ruff_hi: Up now (but we might want some discussion first)
Snaproll: On deck

Edit: And another thing, I still have the game minimized, and wanted to point out that we need Meditation and Priesthood before we can go for Code of Laws. Even running 2 scientists, it's still 40 turns, and that's before we found Tokyo/CopperCity. And I forgot to show this: Here's the state of the world at the moment (I'm highlighting the southern warrior; I recommend a combat II upgrade and a move north to intercept the guy who will likely go NW for the gems):

 
Definitely some discussion. I've pulled open the save. We're at +16 gpt right now at 0% science - keep in mind that once we found our copper city, we're going to lose another 10 gpt!

I *think* it will take 112 gold to upgrade one warrior ->axe. We may only have money for one. Plus 4-5 more built out of the 2 cities, and I think we'll be ready.

Agree on the medic. The forested warrior could be promoted to medic 1 - not sure if we want to do that. We may want to promote him to CR1 or cover. Certainly whichever one becomes an axe we want him to have either CR or cover promotions.

Good turns compromise!

I really wonder how some of these teams got such high scores early on - the only thing I can thing of is Spanish worker grabs.
 
As far as warrior moves - I'd move the healed warrior from Osaka onto the gems mine and fortify him. Put the southern warrior on the gold mine.

I'd guess the barb will move west to the oasis, at which point either of those 2 warriors should have good odds to sack him.

One other question - do we wait the 9 turns to have the settler build, or do we whip? I think I lean towards just waiting.

Kyoto grows in 7 turns and in 11 turns will lose a whipping unhappy, so that's fine. I know it's a good whipping town, but let's not go crazy here - it only has a happy cap of 5, so just keep that in mind.

As for courthouses - I think we build one in Kyoto, and the palace in either Osaka or Madrid, depending on what the Spanish lands look like.

ETA: With the tundra-y lands to the south, I'd guess Izzy is to the E/SE. We probably need to figure out where she is at some point.
 
I think you guys can make good decisions without me ;)

I'm leaving tomorrow for Kamloops, and I won't be back until Monday. I'll see you guys then!
 
I am good to play tomorrow night if we have finished comtemplation by then. I vote for pop rushing the settler. Have we settled on the next tech when we turn the research back up?
 
It's decision time again. Here's how I see things, in order of when they'll come up. I'll include other's opinions if they've voiced them so far. Feel free to copy this list or parts of it. And add to it or edit it as appropriate. I see this as an aid for the next person running a turnset (here ruff_hi).

1) Timing: Right now, before hitting "End Turn"; Priority: Low. Do we move the warrior from the south (currently fortified on the grass hill forest) to attack the encroaching barb from southeast of Osaka?

Compromise's opinion: Yes, move the warrior north. Based on observations of past barb behavior, it will move onto the Gems mine next turn. I'm not sure what it would do next because I've always killed it there before it could attack Osaka or sack the mine. The risk is that we'll lose the warrior if we attack and lose, or lose the mine if we ignore it. More irritatingly, it might sever our road link to Copper in the east. It is an issue, especially if we poprush the settler next turn.

2) Timing: Next turn; Priority: High. Do we poprush the Settler in Osaka next turn?

Compromise's opinion: Yes, rush it. Our game plan relies on getting Copper ASAP. Rushing the Settler is a step in that direction. Barb archers should be here between 1600-1500BC or so. We will start losing warriors badly then.
regoarrarr's opinion: Don't rush it
ruff_hi's opinion: Rush it.

3) Timing: Soon; Priority: High. Where do we settle for the Copper city?

Compromise's opinion: Directly on the Copper. Our needs are great. The city will never amount to much. If another source of Copper is found in some Spanish city, we can let the barbs take this one and raze it! I wouldn't put anything in the infrastructure here. With zero work, it'll eventually be able to work 2 plains forests for a total of 5H/turn. That's almost an axeman every 10 turns. Not great, but not horrible. We can settle near the copper instead of on it, but then that's more delay while we build a mine; then we have to protect the mine as well as the road back to Osaka.

4) Timing: Now; Priority: Medium. What do we research next?

I guess I see 5 possibilities: a) Hunting->Archery. Archers for defense of our soon-to-come holdings; b) Hunting->Animal Husbandry. Our sheep could use pasturing. Horses would be nice, especially for some scouting, but if they're not right nearby, we're probably not going to go get them; c) Sailing. With sailing, I think we could make a reasonably profitable city on the island NW of Kyoto. Cows and clams are nice. Plus, maybe we'll find another route out over there (I don't think the other island is worth founding yet. But I haven't thought deeply about that.); d) Meditation/Priesthood/Code of Laws: I strongly doubt we'll get Confucianism, but Courthouses would be *very* helpful; e) Aim for Construction.

Compromise's opinion: With two scientists assigned in Kyoto, we're getting some 7 or 8 beakers of research each turn, so we do need to decide what to do next. I'm just not sure. We've got a few beakers invested in Hunting, but nothing too much. I guess I lean toward getting Sailing so that Kyoto can do something useful, then going for Code of Laws. Our Courthouses are half-price because we're Organized. But I'm also thinking that we're going to face big cultural defense in the Spanish cities. I'm pretty sure she got Judaism and Buddhism. Maybe Hinduism too. Sheer numbers of Axemen may be sufficient, though. Depends on if her cities are on hills.

5) Timing: Soon, but not imminent; Priority: Medium. What's our attack plan?

Compromise's opinion: I'd be comfortable with 3 axemen in the Osaka/Tokyo area. 1 fortified in each city, one to attack troops that stumble on our mines, mostly in the Osaka area. Then another 6 or so to attack Isabella. Once we have Axes and maybe Archers, the barbs are trainers for us if we mostly fight them defensively on good terrain. An archer in each city and an Axeman to attack would be fine too.

6) Timing: Soon; Priority: Medium. Do we plan to upgrade a warrior to an axeman?

Compromise's opinion: Yes. Stay at 0% research and upgrade one warrior to an axe near Osaka. We want those mines protected. We still want to pick our research target properly because of Specialist research. We'll need a little more than 110 gold to upgrade. And our treasury will grow much more slowly when we found Tokyo/CopperCity.

Other info/thoughts:

I think Isabella is either North or East of us. No barb warriors have come from across the river to the north of Osaka. And I only saw her scout off to the east.

In a few turns, we'll want Kyoto to grow so that a now-unhappy citizen can work some coast for commerce. Right now, I think there are two citizens unhappy about whipping, so 2 scientist = stagnant growth there.

You have to watch the tile assignments in Osaka. If a barb steps on them, forests tend to get worked if you don't watch it.

While building settlers/workers, Osaka should work the river Gems and the Gold. When growing, I suggest both Gems. If we don't care about commerce rate, the oases are our best food right now.

That's all I can think of now. Should be enough fodder for discussion.
 
On the question of whipping, do we really want to whip a city that can work a 7C gems mine (and another 6C gems mine, and a gold, and oases, though obviously not all at once) down to size 1?

Is the 8 turns saved on founding the next city worth the 15 turns we'll be at size 1 (and the 15 turns we'll be at size 2 when we could have been at size 3). Not to mention the -10 gpt for those 8 turns?

Will we even have enough money to do an upgrade if we found that city now (and drop our income down to 6 gpt at 0%)?

As for research, I think I go Sailing - we know we're (probably) going to need Astronomy to win, and this also would let us build something else useful in Kyoto (lighthouse). It's a shame we don't have any other coastal cities

Attack plan - I think we go when we have 6 total axes. We leave one in the Osaka / new city area to play zone defense, and then build another one and that should be enough. We want to make sure that we have enough forces to take out Izzy (who's going to have 2 holy cities). I think 5 axes, properly promoted, with a medic warrior or 2 should be enough
 
Hmm - interesting comments on the whipping. I have just run a test and found that we can get any hammer overflow from the whipped settler to go to an axe but we must somehow cause 1 turn of anarchy after we have rushed the settler and before it has founded our 3rd city.
 
Hi all,

Great turns compromise! All your efforts into this game are greatly appreciated, especially by me. Your posts allow me to catch up with the salient points of the game much faster than I could otherwise.

I know this has been discussed to death already, but I'm against settling directly on the copper. Copper will be connected as soon as we settle if we can keep the road in its current shape, and settling on the copper puts us exactly OUT of range of both the fish and the floodplains. I understand that settling on the copper prevents it from getting pillaged, but only from our third city, a city which will have terrible production potential due to lack of food. Better, in my opinion, to settle in range of the fish, sacrificing a bit of short-term safety for increased long-term potential. If the city is in range of the fish, it has the potential to actually be able to produce axemen in a reasonable number of turns. Now, we will have a bit of a struggle to defend the road initially, but if we can upgrade one of our warriors it really shouldn't be that hard. (Famous last words? Maybe)

I'm also against whipping the settler for the reasons regoarrarr mentioned.
 
I'm leaving in about half an hour, so I'll quickly voice my opinions.

I think that if the consensus is towards settling OFF the copper, then go with it. Once again, it kind of resorts to luck here. If we settle off the copper, we can probably have axemen coming before barb archers. If we settle on the copper, we don't have to risk losing to warrior vs. warrior. Snaproll: By settling on the copper, we will have access to one floodplain when the borders expand.

I am also against whipping the settler.

For tech, it doesn't really matter to me. Sailing sounds good.

I think we're going to want to upgrade warriors into axemen, so save some money.

See you guys Monday.
 
Have a good trip Kodii!

It looks like there's starting to be a consensus to settle off the copper with a not-whipped Settler. I still hold the opinion that we should settle on the copper with a whipped Settler, though. I'll try to outline my reasoning here.

First, let me say that everyone is right. Settling directly on the city is a pretty bad choice for a city. There's no food without expansion, and even that is only decent if we farm a floodplain. Not only that, but it's just one tile away from the coast, though it actually has no coasts in its workable range, so that's not quite as bad as normal.

Its best use before a border pop is stagnant growth at population 2, working 2 forests (and the city center) for 5H I think. Even after a border pop, we can farm the floodplain, mine the plains hill and get another 4H. Pretty bad.

It's especially bad when comparing to moving just a single tile NW where there are fish in range. Lots of food, and a much better long-range prospect. Plus it would have coastal access.

With regard to whipping the Settler, it would only save 8 turns and cost us, like regoarrarr pointed out, some 8x10+30x7=~300 commerce for the earlier city maintenance and the opportunity cost of working the other mines.

That all seems to argue for the status quo. But here's why I think we should whip the Settler and found on the copper: Quick copper and production.

I expect barb archers to appear in about 15 turns. While our city on the hill is likely to be safe from one-at-a-time attacks even with a warrior, there are often times when two or three barbs attack at the same or on consecutive turns.

Our copper is on a desert tile. I think that's 9 turns to build a mine (edit: it's 8 turns per ruff_hi in the next post, thanks rh). So, even if barb archers are delayed a bit, if we go for the better long-term Copper site, we're going to be getting Copper online at about the same time the barb archers appear. We might be able to upgrade a warrior or two, but we'll only just then be able to begin to build new axemen. And we'll have to protect the mine and the roads to the mine with warriors versus raging archers. That just seems tough to me.

The other big factor is production vs. commerce. What further techs do we really need before we take out Isabella? Really, I think it's none. We're planning on taking her out with axes. We can start making axes from two sites in about 3 turns, or we can wait 20 turns to start. That's two axemen, one from each city, who will be coming online around when the archers start showing up.

I think of the tradeoff as: commerce that we don't really need (though I admit it would be nice) vs. time and axemen for taking it to our rivals more quickly.

Our Kyoto scientists will be able to make some progress on techs, and I'm leaning toward Sailing for them just so that Kyoto can do something useful like build a Settler and occupy Cow Island.

In fact, our Kyoto scientists could be assigned to coastal duty and pull in 4 gpt (at 0% research) instead of 6 beakers-per-turn. That might actually be a good idea as we prepare to upgrade a warrior to an axeman.

Those are my thoughts on the subject. This is a succession game, of course, so the decision really rests with the person running the turns. And I'm fully willing to live with whatever decisions we make (that's what makes it fun!).

I guess my summary statement is: we've committed to going for early axemen. Let's go as early and strong with them as we can!

Edit: corrected the make-a-mine turn count above using info from the next post
 
FYI - mining on desert at epic speed is 8 rounds.
 
Hi,

Here are my opinions on the matter of discussion:

1. Move the warrior north to take care of the Barb.

2. Don't pop rush the settler. At least not right away. The extra gold earned now for upgrading the warrior far outweighs the benefits of crippling our economy with an extra city too soon.

3. I agree with Snaproll on settling on the copper. Long term thinking for a prosperous city is better than hoping that Isabella has a copper city to take from her.

4. Research priorities are a dilemma. We'll need all of those sooner or later anyways. I'm not sure which direction I would head at the moment but am leaning towards completing Hunting and securing Archers for Barb defense.

5. Archers and Axes are cool but Chariots would be a nice addition as well.

6. I would definitely plan on upgrading at least one of the warriors to an axeman.

Later,

Oso
 
The team has spoken.... I can't wait to hear what ruff_hi decides to do...!

Note: The author apologizes for the utter lack of useful content in this post.
 
Seems like consensus is to not whip the settler. Consensus is mixed on settling off or on the copper.

Pro-copper: Compromise, regoarrarr, kodii (I think?)
Anti-copper: Oso, Snaproll, Ruff?
 
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