SGOTM 02 - The Real Ms. Beyond

Edit to add link to post:

I think you posted it on page 3 of this thread (yes, I looked for it) here.

Also, I found these in my "Civ Goodies" folder (I think they're the same info in .pdf and .xls format):
 

Attachments

I just took a look at the save, and have a few comments:

Tokyo should probably be working the 4H copper mine instead of the 1F2H forest. We'll grow with fish food.

Kyoto can probably yank the scientists' funding until we get the archipelago settled.

Working 2 gem mines and running 2 scientists, Mathematics is 24 turns away at break-even 40%. (Without the scientists, it's 26 turns at -1gpt, so probably 25 turns away.) That's a lot of no-Market, no-Courthouse turns....

We'd better stop Meditating (not an original suggestion)!

I'd promote Osaka's Archer to CG1 to speed the healing.

I didn't realize we had 2 Warriors in Tokyo, so I guess it is a good move to tempt the hill barb with our shock warrior.

I guess leave the axe in Osaka to defend against the south barb archer?

We could put a turn into a road at the sheep, but be sure to cancel that action right after you give it so that the barb doesn't cross the river and nab him with a road-move.

Isabella won't sign OB with us as she's Annoyed with us.

Edit: We are firmly ensconced as the slowest SGOTM2 team. Our last save is 1300BC, and the next earliest two are in the 900s BC. Not that that's a bad thing....
 
What a gaumt of emotions. I've played two turns, and my head is spinning. This is just a check in post, I haven't lost everything yet. Any weed comes from not playing civ for a while... sorry.
 
Gah... that ain't pretty at all. So, in accordance with both the suckiness of my play, the horrid nature of my luck, and my all-around anger at this turnset, I present unto you my report. Screenies won't be cropped; you can all scroll your a***** off.

Inherited Turn (1300BC) Well, everything looks goo...

Oh crap it doesn't! There are bogies all over, up the hoosegow and all that lame crap! Damn it! (Sorry, I haven't played in a while.)

I pulled the suggested move, too, and moved our warrior over, to entice the potential pillaging raider off our land.

I played around with the binary science rate a bit (worth trying to figure out... could someone please explain it?) and managed to get our $ up to 15 gpt, by unassigning the specialists in kyoto and grabbing the crabs.

I also fire up Merit Ptah, and we hit the classical age. This might have been the only good move I made, as I failed to make the move to currency until about turn 3. You'll see why in a moment.

1156555845.jpg


I also spotted this strange discrepancy in osaka:

1156555977.jpg


We've had that obelisk for one thousand years? Nice!

I mismanaged the worker, all through my turns, too. Didn't lose him, but he was pretty ineffective.

I clicked enter, and our warrior was promptly knocked off his rocks.
I think he was hit seven or eight times, and the offending warrior wasn't even hurt.
Just goes to show with my barb luck.

After the barbs knocked off our first gems mine, I though about whipping the axeman. but we need a granary to make this a viable strategy, and we have none. So, there's no whip in Osaka, where the garrison is holed up to defend the city. I was never really afraid of the barb assault, just annoyed and not happy.

I ended up losing both gems mines by 1150 BC, and was hardpressed to defend myself from the barbs. Once the new axeman came out, it got a little bit easier, but not much. I finally eliminated the barbs incoming near the end of my turnset; I think turn eight saw me put the worker to some real use, instead of just dodging barbs; he's rebuilding the first gems mine.

Suprisingly, there were no raidsof the copper mine. The barbs never touched it, just ran right on by and into the waiting warriors arms at Tokyo.

So, as the science rate, and my coherency dwindles, here's the brighter situation at the end of the turn:

1156557396.jpg


I managed to grow Osaka to size 3, and complete an axe. The city is MMed to produce as much stuff as possible, at least currently. Fiddle with it, because I have definitely screwed up more than a little bit. Binary science is still not firmly in my grasp, although stonehenge being built did give us cash to spare, for a couple turns at least.

Again, I apologize for the haphazard and unorthodox and disjointed report. I'm aware of it, and am sure that both my play and my report will be better next time.

The Save:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm2/The_Real_Ms_Beyond_SG002_BC1000_01.Civ4SavedGame
 
That's not too disastrous actually; this is Raging Barbs, after all.

I have that same rotten luck when defending--even at favorable odds--if I'm not fortified. Just a dice roll, though; can't win 'em all.

Judging from the last picture, I'd say our biggest worry is that barb archer approaching Tokyo. I don't think we have very good odds there. I think maybe we should whip the Axe in Osaka--at the last possible moment, of course--since we may very soon be without Copper again. Then, build Archers in both cities.

The loss of the mines is a setback, but not unrecoverable. I'd say we're all a bit wiser about Raging Barbs now.

I'm tempted to suggest moving the existing (or the whipped, if we do that) Axe over to Tokyo to try to protect the city if the Archer somehow doesn't destroy it. How about another Worker out of Osaka to help chop Axes, mine mines and build roads to our enemies?
 
I got the save but won't look at it until tomorrow morning. I'll check back here and see what the plan is at that time.
 
Quick report:

I have played 6 turns so far.

We still have all the units I started the turn set with.

I haven't whipped any cities yet.

We haven't lost any cities or improvements.

I have to walk my dog and get to the barber shop before he gets busy so I'll finish this as soon as I return with a full report.
 
Full Report:

Overall this was a pretty easy turn set for me to play. I think I did fairly well holding our ground and recovering from our previous set backs.

1000 BC:

Turn Received. Checked all the cities and noticed that some had automation selections turned on. I turned these off.

sgotm02_01.jpg


985 BC:

The barb archer south of Kyoto attacked our axeman on the forest hill. We won the battle and this screen popped up:

sgotm02_02.jpg


I check out the warrior in Tokyo and feel pretty confident that we'll win the battle against the attacking barb archer if he doesn't go for the copper mine.

sgotm02_03.jpg


970 BC:

The warrior in Tokyo defeats the barb archer without a scratch.

955 BC:

Our warrior in Tokyo defeats the barb warrior and earns a promotion. I decided that the "cover" promotion would be appropriate here. The axe in Osaka defeated a barb archer about to attack our worker building the gem mine. I turned the research down to 10% at this point for +6 gpt (0% nets us +8 gpt and I felt that wasn't worth it). The worker finished the gem mine and I adjusted Osaka to work the mine.

sgotm02_04.jpg


940 BC:

I had to stop and think about this one for a few moments. We had a barb warrior adjacent to the new gem mine. The axe that defeated the archer the previous turn was wounded and the other one on the forest hill was still healing. I debated whether or not I should hook up the gold or the other gems and if I should move the archer out of Osaka to defend the gems. I didn't want to give up the fortification bonus in Osaka and I felt that the axe at 4.3 strength was more than sufficient to defend the gem mine.

I decided to go the safe route and move the worker to the other gem site and start on another mine there. The axe moved to the gem mine.


sgotm02_05.jpg


925 BC:

Heal the Axe on the gem mine. The barb warrior moved to the woods next to the gem mine instead of attacking.

910 BC:

Our settler completed in Kyoto. Fortified him for now while we wait on the galley. The barb warrior didn't move north as I anticipated but instead moved onto the hill NE of the woods between our two cities. I feared that he would sever the road on his next move so I took the axe that was on the gems and attacked him. We won the battle but were wounded in the process. Our gold was above 20 so I bumped the science up to 100% for one turn of full research.

895 BC:

The warrior in Tokyo defeated another barb warrior. Turned the science back down to 0%. Izzy has been moving an archer/settler combo between our borders and it is just south of Tokyo now.


sgotm02_06.jpg


880 BC:

Workboat finished in Tokyo. Start construction on an archer.

865 BC:

The 2nd gem mine was completed. Managed Osaka to work that gem mine. Tokyo grew to size 2 and I decided to put that population to work and rush the archer. Queued up an axe while in the screen. Moved the workboat to the fish as I noticed that the borders for Tokyo would expand next turn. Izzy founded Toledo as seen from this screen:


sgotm02_07.jpg


850 BC:

Moved the worker to the gold near Osaka. Tokyo's borders expanded. Created the fishing boat and managed Tokyo to work the fish. Kyoto grew to size 6 and was both polluted and unhappy. I hurried the galley for 2 population and managed the city to still have 2 scientists.


sgotm02_08.jpg


Here are our standings currently:


sgotm02_09.jpg



Finally, the Save.
 
EL_OSO said:
...I check out the warrior in Tokyo and feel pretty confident that we'll win the battle against the attacking barb archer if he doesn't go for the copper mine....

I...but...how did you...?! Wasn't that 3.2 (warrior) versus 3.0 w/first strike (archer)?! And nary a scratch??!!

Great turns! I'll take a look at the save and have more comments later.
 
Woohoo! Nice turns, OSO! nice to see that my :smoke: hasn't completely led us to ruin! Izzy got into the spirit too, and made us a nice little city to raze.

Wasn't team peanut, last games winner, a slow one too?
 
We made it through a complete roster rotation; nice! I must save I've been very happy with the discussion, planning and execution here. We've chosen a strategy that puts us more at the mercy of the RNG than other strategies would have, and in some cases we've paid for that, but fortune favors the bold! Great work, team.

Edit to add this paragraph: @Zalson's last post: Yes, Team Peanut (SGOTM1 winner) was one of the slowest to play. I think it helped them immensely. It helped that they had some already very good players (and their addition of malekithe for SGOTM2 makes them even more qualified), but the slower pace of play allowed the experience and insight those players help everyone's turns. I think we're doing a good job of that here, so the slow pace is okay.

Since it seems like there might be some confusion, I want to make some comments on how binary science works. First, it only applies if you're losing money at 100% research. Unless you're very early in the game or have an astounding ratio of shrines to other cities, that's pretty much all the time. Starting from the turn you discover your last tech (at 100% research), you turn your slider to 0% research and accumulate gold. You accumulate gold until you can research the entire next tech with what's in your treasury. In a sense, the beaker requirement of the tech doesn't matter, it's a question of how many turns you can run at 100% science. So, if your next tech (say Currency) will take you 30 turns at 100% science, and if you are losing 20gpt at 100% science, you stay at 0% research until you have 30*20=600 gold in the treasury. Then, you switch to 100% research and go until you finish the tech.

There are some small inaccuracies in the calculation because cottages mature, precious metal mines are built, cities grow or are captured, etc. But that's the general idea. While there are some small advantages such as not losing library bonuses to rounding (largely gone in the Warlords expansion), there are two big advantages in a game like ours. First, the pile of cash sitting in your treasury can be used for a troop upgrade at the last possible moment, so that you're sure you really need it. Second, and most important, you can switch your plan of research without losing too many beakers. For instance, the research we put into Meditation is largely wasted because we won't be researching down that line. Had we run binary science there, we could have switched away from it without investing many beakers at all, though I think you'll always have the overflow from the previous tech and 1bpt no matter what. In other games, binary science gives you a third big benefit: if you hold off until the end to do the research, some other civ(s) might get the tech before you. If this is a tech with a first-to-discover bonus, you might not want it now. If it isn't, it will take fewer beakers for you to discover it because more of your research will occur under a discount since another civ knows it. This isn't as important to us because we appear to be alone with Isabella.

As a side note, and I mention this because I haven't seen it mentioned even in other posts about binary science, there are cases when you want to look at the number of turns it will take you to research more than one tech consecutively.

This applied here, when we thought we were going for Code of Laws via the fastest route: Meditation->Priesthood->CoL. Since we have no religion and since the Oracle has long since been built, Meditation and Priesthood don't really do us any good. So, in this case, you'd accumulate gold in the treasury until you can research all three techs in a row while at 100% research. That gives you a longer window of opportunity to change your course of action, as we did. We would have lost just as many beakers on Mathematics as we did on Meditation if we hadn't been running at 0% science and knew our eventual tech path because of the way we used our Great Scientist. The biggest benefit is the opportunity to change your mind with little (or at least lower) cost.

If everybody knew all that, then I apologize for jumping up on the soapbox. And, as always, I think about 20% of what I say is somewhat reasonable, 60% is obvious, and 20% is downright wrong or misleading, so take everything with a grain of salt. And a little :) .

Back to the game: with a couple axes under our control, I think it's time to discuss our plans for taking it to Isabella. Thoughts?
 
Compromise said:
Back to the game: with a couple axes under our control, I think it's time to discuss our plans for taking it to Isabella. Thoughts?

I think you're nuts. How do you propose that we take out Izzy with 2 axes when we can barely defend what we have? I think it is out of the question at this point but you may know something I don't.
 
EL_OSO said:
I think you're nuts. How do you propose that we take out Izzy with 2 axes when we can barely defend what we have? I think it is out of the question at this point but you may know something I don't.

Well, there's no question that I'm nuts:crazyeye:, but I guess what I'm wondering is: how big of a force do we want to muster before we go a-razing her lands. And when we do so, where do we go first (north or east). And, do we need a Galley in Tokyo to help protect our Fish. And do we try to scout her land at all first (between Seville and Cordoba and/or out east? And do we want a two pronged north attack (Sev & Cord simultaneously) or one attack that circles north clock/counterclockwise? Do we need to pay attention to her cities to see if she is using any metal? We've got about 2/3rds of her "Soldiers" in the Demographics. Is that meaningful?

Yes, going now would be suicide. She's probably going to declare on us before too long, but we'll probably hardly notice the change from the Raging Barbs.
 
Looks good Oso. What other decisions do we have to make before moving on?

Capt'n Regoarrarr's Up Arr! (Say that three times fast :lol: )
 
Compromise said:
Well, there's no question that I'm nuts:crazyeye:, but I guess what I'm wondering is: how big of a force do we want to muster before we go a-razing her lands. And when we do so, where do we go first (north or east). And, do we need a Galley in Tokyo to help protect our Fish. And do we try to scout her land at all first (between Seville and Cordoba and/or out east? And do we want a two pronged north attack (Sev & Cord simultaneously) or one attack that circles north clock/counterclockwise? Do we need to pay attention to her cities to see if she is using any metal? We've got about 2/3rds of her "Soldiers" in the Demographics. Is that meaningful?

Yes, going now would be suicide. She's probably going to declare on us before too long, but we'll probably hardly notice the change from the Raging Barbs.

Ok, I thought you meant an immediate declaration of war. I think we'll need at least 6 axes and some archers. I'm not sure how many archers but we can probably get by with leaving one to two axes and one archer guarding our cities against barbs and any counter attacks that Izzy musters.

If she doesn't bolster up her defenses in Seville and Cordoba then a two-pronged attack would work best IMO. Raze both of those cities and move forward looking for the better ones. Toledo can be left for last as it is pretty much useless to either of us. I would prefer to have an assault force of 4 axes in each army but we might be able to get by with 3. We're bound to lose some along the way but we might get lucky initially.

As soon as we have currency we should probably build a marketplace in Kyoto to help pay for this endeavour. Since we don't have any barracks yet we probably want to use the new axeman to take out barbs for promotions. It looks like Izzy has a lot of archers so cover would be a wise choice. I would also recommend upgrading the warrior in Tokyo instead of using him as a scout. I think he has both combat and cover promotions already but I can't remember if he has more.

A galley might not be a bad idea to guard the fish in Tokyo but it can probably wait while we build axes.

After we get CoL we should consider jumping back to grab Irrigation and Animal Husbandry. There are 2 resources in Osaka that need those techs for improvement.
 
reogoarrarr, where are you?
 
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