SGOTM 03 - Gypsy Kings
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Ronnie1
Deity
Hi All,
On the research front, I think fishing for sure first if we settle in place and maybe if even if we move. After that, there are so many things to consider. Given our expansive trait and the cheap granaries (they can pop rushed with 2 pop) we should try to get pottery in very early. That will help our growth alot. We start with hunting and mining, if we get fishing first, BW second, we then need either wheel or ag to access pottery. Ag seems to make more sense because it also opens AH, but wheel is cheaper, and if copper is close, horses won't be as needed. It might depend on if we need to start hooking up resources right away. We'll have time to discuss that as we move on. One thing I noticed in the maintenance thread, huts are available off the starting island. We may want to try and get a galley out with our scout aboard and take advantage of that. I know the AI's will get boats out early, especially if they are out of land to settle. The more I think about it, science is probably the key to this game, we'll want to explore all options for maximizing research (not my strong suit), so keep the ideas coming! I know all of Peter's traits will help with this, fast pop growth, cheap harbors for trade on a water map, and cheap universities. It seems we should try to use all of those as much and as soon as possible. Then the only problem is dealing with the swords that show up at the back door.
On the research front, I think fishing for sure first if we settle in place and maybe if even if we move. After that, there are so many things to consider. Given our expansive trait and the cheap granaries (they can pop rushed with 2 pop) we should try to get pottery in very early. That will help our growth alot. We start with hunting and mining, if we get fishing first, BW second, we then need either wheel or ag to access pottery. Ag seems to make more sense because it also opens AH, but wheel is cheaper, and if copper is close, horses won't be as needed. It might depend on if we need to start hooking up resources right away. We'll have time to discuss that as we move on. One thing I noticed in the maintenance thread, huts are available off the starting island. We may want to try and get a galley out with our scout aboard and take advantage of that. I know the AI's will get boats out early, especially if they are out of land to settle. The more I think about it, science is probably the key to this game, we'll want to explore all options for maximizing research (not my strong suit), so keep the ideas coming! I know all of Peter's traits will help with this, fast pop growth, cheap harbors for trade on a water map, and cheap universities. It seems we should try to use all of those as much and as soon as possible. Then the only problem is dealing with the swords that show up at the back door.
Conquistador 63
Deity
Have you guys noticed the updated starting screenshot? There are blue circles in place (no wonder!) and 2 NE of settler! Also the water tiles in the fog borders seems clearer (at least to me), as the forest row 2N of the scout.
I know there is a never-ending debate about the usefulness of the blue circles, but I still think they add interesting information, and from a few tests in worldbuilder, I believe they take into account resources you can't see because you don't have the tech.
Also, I managed to play the test game yesterday, until ~500BC I guess. Too bad I don't have screenies to post. Btw I settled 1N, worked 1 clam, 1 mine and cottaged the 2 FP and my pop still grew faster than I could whip. Of course the NW spice was not on a hill in that save, so in real game situation can be better.
Good news is that you can get a lot of fair tech trades, if you meet enough civs early (exploring fishing boat and galley). I was dead last (among some 10 civs) until Alpha, then in a couple of turns got some 8/9 techs up to Math and IW, still not giving away Alpha itself (I had to give CoL, which I had researched earlier, though), and suddenly I was leading in tech. The only tech I couldn't get from trade was OR.
Bad news is that the wonder race will be hard, with the limited hammers, we have a penalty for poprushing them.
Suggested techs after fishing and BW: wheel (pre-req for pottery, the other is agri or fishing, which we will already have), pottery, sailing, writing. Then we can go the religious path for Oracle (cheap techs that have a nice value for trade with AI after Alpha anyway if we fail to get it), inserting CoL if we feel like, then Alpha.
I know there is a never-ending debate about the usefulness of the blue circles, but I still think they add interesting information, and from a few tests in worldbuilder, I believe they take into account resources you can't see because you don't have the tech.
Also, I managed to play the test game yesterday, until ~500BC I guess. Too bad I don't have screenies to post. Btw I settled 1N, worked 1 clam, 1 mine and cottaged the 2 FP and my pop still grew faster than I could whip. Of course the NW spice was not on a hill in that save, so in real game situation can be better.
Good news is that you can get a lot of fair tech trades, if you meet enough civs early (exploring fishing boat and galley). I was dead last (among some 10 civs) until Alpha, then in a couple of turns got some 8/9 techs up to Math and IW, still not giving away Alpha itself (I had to give CoL, which I had researched earlier, though), and suddenly I was leading in tech. The only tech I couldn't get from trade was OR.
Bad news is that the wonder race will be hard, with the limited hammers, we have a penalty for poprushing them.
Suggested techs after fishing and BW: wheel (pre-req for pottery, the other is agri or fishing, which we will already have), pottery, sailing, writing. Then we can go the religious path for Oracle (cheap techs that have a nice value for trade with AI after Alpha anyway if we fail to get it), inserting CoL if we feel like, then Alpha.
Ronnie1
Deity
Sorry, my bad on the ag or wheel. It also looks like we'll need to update our HOF version to .009.
da_Vinci
Gypsy Prince
Hi all,
How does one get into worldbuilder?
Seems like a clear plan is emerging ... Re the tech path, if no copper in sight, AH gets added? or Archery?
Blue circles ... sometimes I have no idea what the CPU is thinking, as it often puts them in places that secure fewer resources. Maybe being on a hill has a bonus in the CPU's mind (for defense).
In any event, what must be out east for the second blue circle to be located with none of the visible resources?
If there is a lot of food on the east coast, making a good city site NE, then do we want the NE to be the capital, or the "in place" (or 1 N) to be the capital?
dV
How does one get into worldbuilder?
Seems like a clear plan is emerging ... Re the tech path, if no copper in sight, AH gets added? or Archery?
Blue circles ... sometimes I have no idea what the CPU is thinking, as it often puts them in places that secure fewer resources. Maybe being on a hill has a bonus in the CPU's mind (for defense).
In any event, what must be out east for the second blue circle to be located with none of the visible resources?
If there is a lot of food on the east coast, making a good city site NE, then do we want the NE to be the capital, or the "in place" (or 1 N) to be the capital?
dV
Ronnie1
Deity
@DV, ctrl+w to enter worldbuilder.
I still think we just wait and see what is really available (in the east), and then decide on city locations.
I still think we just wait and see what is really available (in the east), and then decide on city locations.
Conquistador 63
Deity
The upper right icon which you can use for exiting, saving, loading etc, also has in its list a "enter worldbuilder" option.
The test I was referring to was simply to generate a random start map, then use the above described option and voila, all the world is yours for viewing. You can do this at any point in the game (of course, not official games!!!). I have generated a few starts with the current sgotm settings to get a rough feeling about what the real game might look like. In one of them, the settler had 2 blue circles, one at its starting location with some bonus resources, other a few tiles north for no apparent reason. Entered WB and there were horses and copper next to the 2nd blue circle. Hmmm...
The test I was referring to was simply to generate a random start map, then use the above described option and voila, all the world is yours for viewing. You can do this at any point in the game (of course, not official games!!!). I have generated a few starts with the current sgotm settings to get a rough feeling about what the real game might look like. In one of them, the settler had 2 blue circles, one at its starting location with some bonus resources, other a few tiles north for no apparent reason. Entered WB and there were horses and copper next to the 2nd blue circle. Hmmm...
Ronnie1
Deity
@All, AlanH has made an open request to all vanilla teams about taking on an additional player. There are a number of teams that only have 6 active and we currently have 7. I get the feeling from the pre-game discussion that we are all committed to seeing this through, but that doesn't mean we couldn't take on 1 more, there are some 8 member teams. Looking for feedback!!
da_Vinci
Gypsy Prince
I have no problem adding a new member.
I think that AlanH wants teams to be 6 to 8 members, higher numbers if more members are first timers to SGOTM (who apparently have higher attrition rates). So he may offer the extra players to the size 6 teams first.
Is everyone OK with the HOF.009 mod? There is an option for setting the first turn to be called turn 1 (otherwise, the default is first turn = turn 0). Seems like we should all agree to use the same setting, so do we prefer first = 0 or first = 1? I have a mild preference for first = 1 but am happy to do either.
Also, is everyone familar with the autolog, and how to set the recording style (text, html or forum)? If you plan to post parts of the autolog as turn reports, then using forum tags probably is best (I think that is default).
The SGOTM reference thread talked about the staff appointing an initial team coordinator (I suppose you know who you are, I'm guessing it was Ronnie1), then the team selecting a captain. Have we made that latter decision (have I missed it)? I think is it natural that is be one of the returnig Gypsy Kings from SGOTM 2, if not already decided.
Probably time to start thinking about the play lineup. My one suggestion here would be that since Scout214 and I are still unproven at monarch level, perhaps not putting us back to back is a good idea. For the start, I'm happy to let the veterans get the Russian bear out of hibernation!
Thanks for the info on worldbuilder. I was trying to get into it on the culdeus map to fix the spice hill, but apparently WB was locked out on that. The button in options did not appear. I could get in either way on a game that I started.
Also, don't mind my rhetorical questions (for example, the ones that we will answer after we move the scout). I like to put the question on the table (before I forget it), even though the answer will wait.
dV
I think that AlanH wants teams to be 6 to 8 members, higher numbers if more members are first timers to SGOTM (who apparently have higher attrition rates). So he may offer the extra players to the size 6 teams first.
Is everyone OK with the HOF.009 mod? There is an option for setting the first turn to be called turn 1 (otherwise, the default is first turn = turn 0). Seems like we should all agree to use the same setting, so do we prefer first = 0 or first = 1? I have a mild preference for first = 1 but am happy to do either.
Also, is everyone familar with the autolog, and how to set the recording style (text, html or forum)? If you plan to post parts of the autolog as turn reports, then using forum tags probably is best (I think that is default).
The SGOTM reference thread talked about the staff appointing an initial team coordinator (I suppose you know who you are, I'm guessing it was Ronnie1), then the team selecting a captain. Have we made that latter decision (have I missed it)? I think is it natural that is be one of the returnig Gypsy Kings from SGOTM 2, if not already decided.
Probably time to start thinking about the play lineup. My one suggestion here would be that since Scout214 and I are still unproven at monarch level, perhaps not putting us back to back is a good idea. For the start, I'm happy to let the veterans get the Russian bear out of hibernation!
Thanks for the info on worldbuilder. I was trying to get into it on the culdeus map to fix the spice hill, but apparently WB was locked out on that. The button in options did not appear. I could get in either way on a game that I started.
Also, don't mind my rhetorical questions (for example, the ones that we will answer after we move the scout). I like to put the question on the table (before I forget it), even though the answer will wait.
dV
Ronnie1
Deity
@All,
I kind of took the lead at the end of the last game after the previous 2 leaders lost interest. However, I am not attached to being the leader if someone else would like to be. For the purpose of discussion, leader/captain is basically the same role in my opinion. There was not really a captain for us last game that made any ultimate decisions or anything like that. Everyone gets to express their ideas about how to proceed during the game. I do feel that some sort of a consensus should be reached on some of the major decisions, ie: research path, city placement, strategic planning, wonder builds, declaring war, etc. But if an AI declares on you during your turnset, just fight like hell!
The main role of the leader is to keep up interest in the game and update the roster order after each turnset has been played.
The 1 general rule is that the next player in line has 24 hours to post a "got it" message, so we know the save has been picked up, and then play your turnset within 48 hours and upload the new save. If there are serious issues that arise in the middle of your turnset, you can upload a save of the situation and ask for opinions on how to proceed. Ultimately, each player will play the turnset they are dealt and then we move on.
I have no opinion on the number for the first turn , but we should all do it the same way.
I do have a question about the autolog text file, how do you extract it? I know that a text file is created automatically every time the save file is uploaded to the forum site, but is there a way to extract it any time you want it?
As far as the roster order goes, haven't even thought about it yet. Does anyone have any commitments that need to be considered for the first couple of weeks? If someone has a consideration that affects when they can play at any time, just make a request to change postions with someone else for a turn, or just skip yours if you must. There will be plenty of turns to go around.
I kind of took the lead at the end of the last game after the previous 2 leaders lost interest. However, I am not attached to being the leader if someone else would like to be. For the purpose of discussion, leader/captain is basically the same role in my opinion. There was not really a captain for us last game that made any ultimate decisions or anything like that. Everyone gets to express their ideas about how to proceed during the game. I do feel that some sort of a consensus should be reached on some of the major decisions, ie: research path, city placement, strategic planning, wonder builds, declaring war, etc. But if an AI declares on you during your turnset, just fight like hell!
The main role of the leader is to keep up interest in the game and update the roster order after each turnset has been played. The 1 general rule is that the next player in line has 24 hours to post a "got it" message, so we know the save has been picked up, and then play your turnset within 48 hours and upload the new save. If there are serious issues that arise in the middle of your turnset, you can upload a save of the situation and ask for opinions on how to proceed. Ultimately, each player will play the turnset they are dealt and then we move on.
I have no opinion on the number for the first turn , but we should all do it the same way.
I do have a question about the autolog text file, how do you extract it? I know that a text file is created automatically every time the save file is uploaded to the forum site, but is there a way to extract it any time you want it?
As far as the roster order goes, haven't even thought about it yet. Does anyone have any commitments that need to be considered for the first couple of weeks? If someone has a consideration that affects when they can play at any time, just make a request to change postions with someone else for a turn, or just skip yours if you must. There will be plenty of turns to go around.
da_Vinci
Gypsy Prince
I thought that you did a great job managing the logistics at the end of SGOTM 2 (based on what I read in the thread) so I'd be happy to see you continue in that role if you are willing. I think that AlanH wants to have at least a designated spokesman/point of contact for each team, even if not as autocratic as a "captain".
Regarding consultations within a turnset, do you think that posting a save or posting some screenshots is the better way to go? It is important that only the designated player make any moves in the turnset, so screenshots are less risky. If we do post a save, by "post" I assume you mean someting different than uploading to the SGOTM site (which should only be done with the end of turnset save, right?).
I suspect most teams will use the default first turn = 0, so if we do that it will be consistent with the other teams.
The autolog in HOF mod creates a file that has nothing to do with uploads to the server. Anytime you play in an HOF mod, it generates an autolog on your C drive. On my computer, it is in MyDocuments/My Games/Sid Meier's Civilization 4/AutoLog/autolog.txt. Default file is autolog.txt. The mod will append all games to this file if you never specify a new name (can do this in options). If you do make new names the default will be the last used file name.
If you have ever played an HOF game, then you should have autologs. If not, you can go to GOTM 12 pregame thread, load Svelte's test map (or Jar Jar Binks' test map for GOTM 13 I suppose), play a few turns and that will generate a log you can look at to get the idea.
You can set how much or little to log in the options menu. I think that alt+e or ctrl+e will open the log during play so you can manually add to it (for example, .008 did not log declarations of war) ... I'll check and edit in the correct keys.
edit: alt+e is supposed to open the autolog for manual additions.
Less than 24 hours until the cosmonaut Anastasi "launch"
Go G
dV
Ronnie1
Deity
@Dv and All,
Uploading only the screenshot is safer in all respects. But you can't always get all of the necessary info into a screenshot. You can upload a save at any point, and all team members can download any save at any time. To be very clear, only the person playing "that" turnset can make any moves, negotiations, etc. However, in my understanding, you are allowed to see if rival civs are willing to trade by opening the appropriate diplomacy screen. Just be very careful that you don't break any rules by accident. If you have any question, I would say wait and send a PM to AlanH to ask for specific clarification. I am going to send a copy of this post to Alan and see if he would like to add anything.
Uploading only the screenshot is safer in all respects. But you can't always get all of the necessary info into a screenshot. You can upload a save at any point, and all team members can download any save at any time. To be very clear, only the person playing "that" turnset can make any moves, negotiations, etc. However, in my understanding, you are allowed to see if rival civs are willing to trade by opening the appropriate diplomacy screen. Just be very careful that you don't break any rules by accident. If you have any question, I would say wait and send a PM to AlanH to ask for specific clarification. I am going to send a copy of this post to Alan and see if he would like to add anything.
You can upload to the server at any time, and I would recommend that as the preferred way to do it if you want the other players to look at the save. If you post a save directly to the thread you run a greater risk that someone will find it and try to play forward from it.
True. Just be aware of the danger of looking at someone else's save in mid-turnset and making an irreversible move or change. That's a
.That's correct. The rule is - look, but don't touch. Don't do anything that would be irreversible if you were playing the set. No deals. No declarations. No fights. No unit moves .....
By all means, but you should be able to use your common sense. Just remember, the objective is that you as a team play every move and turn as a new adventure. No move or deal should have been tried before by any team member.
da_Vinci
Gypsy Prince
Interesting ... my thought was that a save uploaded to the server would be more likely to be mistaken for a turnset handoff, and a save posted in the thread would clearly not be a turnset handoff. But per AlanH's instruction, we'll use the server to upload any intra turnset saves that we need to discuss. Maybe an upload to the server before a turnset is completed has some safeguards built in?
This is the allowed/disallowed exploits and strategy thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=152399
There are two allowed items here that we might want to use if we want to be competitive with the other teams. Any members already familiar with and using these two allowed exploits?
dV
Ronnie1
Deity
@All,
Could everyone please check in with a quick I'm here post. The start file will be available in a few hours and I'm getting ready to put the roster order together. Thanks
Could everyone please check in with a quick I'm here post. The start file will be available in a few hours and I'm getting ready to put the roster order together. Thanks
da_Vinci
Gypsy Prince
At my post 
BTW, per ainwood the pop rushing exploit is fixed in the HOF mod, so the one available exploit is the chop settler/worker exploit. Gist appears to be that if you switch to settler/worker just when the chop hammers come it, then switch back and chop again, you can build the settler/worker just with chop hammers (almost), and keep pop growth and other production between the chop harvests. Might be worth a try!
@Ronnie1: from my perspective, you might as well take the first turnset, move the scout and post a screenshot (can't see a need to post the save so early) for us to discuss.
We should definitely set 4000 BC = turn 0, as there is a display on the progress and results page that is set up that way, and we might as well be consistent with that.
Tick tock tick tock ... Blast Off! Go G
dV
BTW, per ainwood the pop rushing exploit is fixed in the HOF mod, so the one available exploit is the chop settler/worker exploit. Gist appears to be that if you switch to settler/worker just when the chop hammers come it, then switch back and chop again, you can build the settler/worker just with chop hammers (almost), and keep pop growth and other production between the chop harvests. Might be worth a try!
@Ronnie1: from my perspective, you might as well take the first turnset, move the scout and post a screenshot (can't see a need to post the save so early) for us to discuss.
We should definitely set 4000 BC = turn 0, as there is a display on the progress and results page that is set up that way, and we might as well be consistent with that.
Tick tock tick tock ... Blast Off!
Go GdV
Ronnie1
Deity
@All,
Nobody has to tell me twice! dV said go so here it is. There is definitely more to discuss.
Roster order is as follows, I split the new guys and the old guys for balance, and kind of went by most recent posts.
Ronnie1 - up now
da_Vinci - on deck
Coquistador63 - in the hole
Joemama - waiting
Igelkott - waiting
Confusion - waiting
Scout214 - waiting the most
Nobody has to tell me twice! dV said go so here it is. There is definitely more to discuss.
Roster order is as follows, I split the new guys and the old guys for balance, and kind of went by most recent posts.
Ronnie1 - up now
da_Vinci - on deck
Coquistador63 - in the hole
Joemama - waiting
Igelkott - waiting
Confusion - waiting
Scout214 - waiting the most
da_Vinci
Gypsy Prince
You give me too much power!
I think we have to put a city on the hill where the scout stands now. We'll get 11 food from the fish and clams after lighthouse, which can feed the many production tiles. Stone suddenly puts some wonders back on the table. With a city on that hill, and one where the settler is now, there is only a two tile overlap of the fat crosses if I am seeing right. The city where settler is has mega food potential, so a GP farm and scientist haven?
Question is, which one should be the capital? If we settle first on the hill, we get 2 hammers from the city tile (2/2/1). Playing that out on the culdeus test map, by 3220 I have Fishing, 1 warrior built (he finishes before fishing is done), BW due in 6 turns, WB just done and fishing the (well, it's clams on the culdeus map but it would be the fish on ours), pop is 2 with next due in 11 (on the clams, sooner on the fish).
If I settle in place and pursue the same goals, I get by 3220 WB due in 3, BW due in 3, pop is 3 with next due in 12 (this will shorten after WB goes to work), and still 8 turns away from finishing the warrior.
Seems to me that the extra hammer in the city is helpful and overcomes the time delay of moving to settle. So I am inclined to found Moscow on the hill, warrior while getting fishing, workboat while researching BW, with an eye to settling the original settler start fairly soon as a GP farm and a worker/settler farm. The high production capital can make the WB for the farm, and we can chop and whip other production in that city. Make it a science city.
Of course, we have some time to settle the original settler start, so the second city might go north of Moscow depending on resources, neighbors, etc.
Unless we really want the capital to be where all the food is, and use bureaucacy to boost the science output.
If we move the settler 1 NE, then the scout NW (1N, 1NW), we'll have some sense of that NW coast before committing the settler.
A note on fog gazing: I use a laptop, and usually the screen has the top slightly angled away from me. but if I angle the top slightly towards me, I see more detail at the edges of the fog. I assume that this might also apply to flat panel screens on desktops, but not to CRTs. So for laptop or flat panel, try shifting your viewing angle a bit.
Update edit: I see that CFR-W has completed their first 30 turns and are at a score of 65. CFR-V uploaded after 1 turn (to discuss) and are at score of 13 (so we are tied for first !!
) Have we decided on number of turns per turnset in the early game?Also, since first turn will be turn 0, I would suggest that Ronnie1 play 10x + 1 turns to start, so our saves will thereafter have a multiple of 10 as the turn number. The CFR-W save after 30 turns says 3130 29 turns. The progress chart is showing tick marks at 3100 and 30 turns, so adding one turn to the first set seems to be a better fit to the chart (which is set up for first turn = turn 0)
Just to be clear, we save and upload before we hit end turn of our last turn, or after we hit end turn but before doing anything on the now open next turn? My guess is that is is the former. I am checking with AlanH about any rules regarding these last three issues.
dV
A few thoughts:
I think our capital one south of the stone is a great move. I would move the settler E, then NE to head towards the hill site. Along with being a great spot, it also follows the general rule to expand towards the AI. We should be able to plot a city down at the original settler start position at our leisure.
Did anyone else think pyramids when they saw that stone? Since our cities have plenty of food and health, happiness will be the limiting factor on their size. Representation would give happiness as well as boosting the power of specialists. Running specalists is also very conducive to our philosophical trait.
I think for the short term, our tech order should stay at fishing and brozeworking. After that we will have a big decision that will depend alot on what we find during those turns. One of the many options at that point would be to go for masonry, wheel and pyramids.
I am looking forward to seeing what kind of land/neighbors our scout discovers to the north.
Joe
I think our capital one south of the stone is a great move. I would move the settler E, then NE to head towards the hill site. Along with being a great spot, it also follows the general rule to expand towards the AI. We should be able to plot a city down at the original settler start position at our leisure.
Did anyone else think pyramids when they saw that stone? Since our cities have plenty of food and health, happiness will be the limiting factor on their size. Representation would give happiness as well as boosting the power of specialists. Running specalists is also very conducive to our philosophical trait.
I think for the short term, our tech order should stay at fishing and brozeworking. After that we will have a big decision that will depend alot on what we find during those turns. One of the many options at that point would be to go for masonry, wheel and pyramids.
I am looking forward to seeing what kind of land/neighbors our scout discovers to the north.
Joe
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