Remember when your comparing bulbing with a GA that our first GA requires two different great people. Both of which are capable of bulbing techs. I mentioned this because you are not comparing what one GS can get bulbling to what we get from a GA. Your actually comparing two great people bulbing against the GA. Also realize that each additional GA costs an additional great person. Two GP for 1st GA, three GP for 2nd GA, etc.
Number of tiles with commerce, science modifier, number of tiles with hammer, modifier (current situation, no improvement).
That's 374 more science per turn (probably a little lower due to rounding though...) and 139 hammers per turn.
So this means that an 8 turn GA comes to about 3000 extra beakers, similar to bulbing one GS. Clearly it is not a good idea to use a GA to speed research. But perhaps we can speed the construction of the spaceship parts with a GA.
The spaceship parts, their unlocking techs, and their hammer cost (this is raw cost - the spaceship parts with a * get a 100% production bonus with certain resources):
5 Casings (Rocketry): 1200*
3 Thrusters (Satellites): 1800*
1 Engine (Fusion): 2400
1 Docking Bay (Robotics): 3000*
1 Cockpit (Fiber Optics): 1500*
1 Life Support (Ecology): 1500*
1 Stasis Chamber (Genetics): 1800
We have high production in Kiev (27/94/121), Ravenna (24/60/84), Irkutzk (23/57/80), Smurkzgrad (20/50/70) and Rome (20/50/70), and fairly high production in a few other towns. The numbers indicate current raw production, modified production (assuming forge + factory + plant + space elevator, and in Kiev also Ironworks), and modified production including a 100% production bonus.
Btw, this calculation shows that the Space Elevator is not that relevant. It just adds 0.5 to a production modifier that equals 2 for most towns, and 3 for Kiev. So maybe we should start towards Apollo pretty soon so that we can start building it in Kiev as soon as the plant and IW finish, and research the Space Elevator later.
We can build spaceship parts in parallel in several towns, so it seems reasonable to assume that production can keep up with research. In particular, all Casings and Thrusters can be built fairly quickly (in say 20 turns), while we research the techs for the other parts.
It seems therefore that only the build time of the final part really matters. In particular it means that the final part should be assigned to one of our fastest builders, that is, Kiev or Ravenna.
A GA will increase raw hammer output in Kiev from 27 to 36, and in Ravenna from 24 to 32. The two final parts will probably be the Life Support System and the Stasis Chamber, because they are "alone" on a fairly long tech path (4 techs). The fastest option seems to be to assign Stasis Chamber to Kiev (20 turns) and Life Support to Ravenna (18 turns). The other really expensive parts are the Engine and the Docking Bay, and these should also be assigned to a fast builder (Rome can do Engine at 48 turns, and Irkutzk can do Docking Bay at 38 turns). The Cockpit is rather cheap.
The critical build time would be Ravenna. A GA at the end would reduce the build time of Ravenna by 2 turns (25% increase during 8 turns). This seems again worse than spending the GP's on bulbing.
Of course these calculations do not take into account that we can retool our tiles for production once research is done. And Ravenna can steal a copper mine, etc.
Conclusions:
Start Apollo asap. I am leaning to researching Arty and Rocketry now.
After that, research to Fusion so that we can start on the Engine.
Next research project is Robotics. Rush Space Elevator with Great Engineer.
Then Satellites.
After all research is done, rework tiles for production.
Let Kiev build Apollo and Stasis Chamber, and cheaper parts in between. (There is probably not enough time to do Docking Bay or Engine in between.)
Let Ravenna build Life Support.
Let Irkutsk build Docking Bay.
Let Rome build Engine.
Spend GP's on bulbing, unless we find that our research is going significantly faster than the production of spaceship parts.
Don't forget labratories, as they provide +25% and +50% towards SS parts.
BTW, in my HoF games I've found its best to build the more expensive parts with your high productive towns and let the less productive towns (even the ones that totally suck) produce the cheap parts. Some times that will actually speed up building as it allows the main cities to focus more. Plus, if we have any left, chopping forests does benefit SS parts. That's the only thing that does.
Aye, zyxy forgot Laboratories, but that only serves to emphasize all his points. Space Elevator becomes even less important, and a GA makes even less difference for production. The retooling of towns should make the GA a bit more worthwhile, but not very much so.
I agree with zyxy's conclusion. Rocketry -> Fusion -> Robotics -> Satellites, with town assignments as shown. Off to space we go!
@zyxy:
I think this is a failry good research/production plan. I also think we agree that spending GS/GE/GM on golden age is not worth it, except at the very end (when research is almost completed anyway). Our empire is not that small, so from my side it means golden age are not really an option in the game .
Some more work, will probably play in an hour or two.
Plan (rough) based on zyxy's roadmap:
- research for Apollo.
- continue building some military.
- get some cash from the AI (but that will start being an issue I think, so back to binary research if required). Maybe get some merchants in cities that are not really usefull for end production plan.
- save GP's for builbing/research/cash
- Specific issues: we are loosing Shanghai/Neapolis: get some culture there (theatre/artists)
- prepare short war with Julius in case we loose our coal supply from Mansa (something I fear)
- switch production in Kiev
Question: Do we want spies in case ? I think we are far ahead so I would not do that. Just asking
Last question:
we would finish our research on Genetics if we follow our current path right ? That's fine for me but the +3 health would have been nice for us. Hum. Let's hope the AI will do few research for us....
- get some cash from the AI (but that will start being an issue I think, so back to binary research if required). Maybe get some merchants in cities that are not really usefull for end production plan.
No merchants until we've used up all available chances for scientists. We have much more bonuses for science that for gold, so a scientist always pays off better than a merchant.
Question: Do we want spies in case ? I think we are far ahead so I would not do that. Just asking
@Niklas:
Agreed. Not if scientist are available. But that will require some 0% science turns, since I am not willing to trade space techs to the AI (unless they have a lot of cash...).
Coal is probably no longer needed anyway. We have almost all the rails we need, only former China is lacking some. Apart from this, the plan looks good to me. Good luck!
EDIT: I will typically trade a tech whenever I need the cash, even if I can get only a few 100 gold in total for it. In any case, we will get nowhere near face value for our techs.
You guys have done some great work. I don't have any differing opinions, just want to check in.
Regarding the cheaper parts, building casing, etc., in our weaker towns is absolutely the way to go. I think Rav/Kiev et.al. should only be tasked to them if we know they can complete a cheap part before an expensive one comes available. Nothing groundbreaking in that statement, just thought I'd reiterate it.
Turn 0 1718 AD
Switch Kiev to Coal plant. Ravenna switched to coal plant too. Switch to Arty.
Turn 1 1721 AD
Some worker action. No trade available. Set science to 0 for 1 turn.
Turn 2 1724 AD
Switch back science to 100%. Moscow on coal plant, Rome too (Hydro was an option but the city will not grow towards that size anyway, so 2 turns saved).
We get a ... great Artist in Vlad... Few worker actions.
Turn 3 1727 AD
Set Beijing on factory, Shanghai on Theatre.
Turn 3 1727 AD
zzz
Turn 4 1730 AD
zzz + switch irk from transport to coal.
Turn 5 1732 AD
Vlad is on grocer. I'll start farming more around Vlad. Islam spread in Cumae. Nice...
Turn 6 1734 AD
Set Alex on Eiffel Tower, for cash. Was wondering between grocer, aqueduct and Factory, none of them being really useful there.
Antium on Coal.
Kiev is on IW (and I'll let it starve since working a 1F/2C seems worthless there) Khan and Hyana signed a PA !! Do not really know what this means, except we are no longer first in score.....
Turn 7 1736 AD
Selling Arty to Cyrus for 240 gold, Mansa for 230, and some stone-age stuff to Toku for 170 gold.
Turn 8 1738 AD
Neapolis on Uni (Culture). Smurkz on coal plant.
IBT: GP surge in the AIs (I counted 7 ??). Hatse declares on Monte !!!
Turn 9 1740 AD
zzz
IBT: Isabella and Mao ask for steam power. How shortsighted of them
Turn 10 1742 AD
Rocketry completed. Switch to Fusion. The AI will NOT help us on this one too....
Ravenna is on military. Kiev should complete the IW in 7 turns, then producing 96 hpt vs 48hpt in Ravenna. That's twice the production, and Ravenna would complete it in 33 turns. Half of that is 16 turns, wich is still more than 7 turns .
Sell Arty to Ghandi for 230 gold. We are nearly broke (and so is the AI) so in 1 or 2 turns (selling old stuff) I'll go back to 0% science.
IBT: Hatse asks for assembly line. Nope.
Turn 11 1744 AD
Selling copper to Alex for 5gpt. Irk after Plant is finishing tranport and destroyer. Then Infantry I think (before Spaceship parts, of course).
IBT: Ghandi asks for help in his war against Toku. Hmmmm, well,.... no. Chinese revolt in Shanghai
Turn 12 1746 AD
Money is available. Sold Computers to Mansa for 970 gold. No need to switch back to 0% science for several turns... Did some renegociation for gpt. I wait a little to sell Industrialism to Louis (he can do better than 420 gold).
IBT: Julius declares on Toku
Turn 13 1748 AD
zzz
IBT: Some cultural expansion. Islam spread in Rome.
Turn 14 1750 AD
Cumae on Infantry, Ravenna too. Moscow plant->Aqueduct (and probably grocer too since we could hire scientist there....).
Turn 15 1752 AD
Lab started in Antium. Arretium (worthless city btw...) on Infantry. Smurkzgrad on Inf too.
Turn 16 1754 AD
Fission completed. IW too. Set Kiev on Appollo. Hmmm seems like I missed my calculations since Appollo is due in 25 turns. That's still earlier than what Ravenna would have done, but 1 turn short. Kiev is working Vlad rice in order to no starve, it should start aqueduct asap after Appolo I think.
Next turn is tech trading day. I'll sell radio to try to get an AI to start Eiffel tower Is my cash-making technique not functionnal... ????
Turn 17 1756 AD
Beijing WB (crabs).
Hmmm next turn is tech trading day
IBT : War between Hatse and Monte is making casualties. Technotitclan changed hands.
Turn 17 1758 AD
Louis has completed the Eiffel Tower ! Victory is mine
I trade Indus for 600 gpt to Louis, and do not (yet) sell radio.
Turn 18 1760 AD
we got nearly 400 gold. I notice that I forgot to bulb for fiber optics... Do that now. We gain 3 turns for the 2 GS.
400 gold is 2 turns of research, I set Alex on Rock'n Roll (or whatever). Ravenna on courthouse, several aqueducts, and Infantry.
Turn 19 1762 AD
Fiber optic completed, Fusion here we are (8 turns).
Turn 20 1764 AD
zzz (or nearly).
One note: we are over-teching ourselves I think. Production will probably not follow (I may be wrong). I think we do not really need to sell techs and bulb techs, we'll get them in time (or earlier). So getting some 0% science turns is an option (rushing for production buildings, troops,....). GA too (I knew I was keen on these....).
Note there is plenty of money available if the math proves that we need to sell techs.
Spoiler:
Here is your Session Turn Log from 1718 AD to 1764 AD:
Turn 376, 1718 AD: Isabella adopts Emancipation!
Turn 377, 1721 AD: Ibn Muqlah has been born in Vladivostok!
Turn 377, 1721 AD: Smurkzgrad celebrates "We Love the President Day"!!!
Turn 377, 1721 AD: Michaelangelo has been born in Tenochtitlan!
Turn 378, 1724 AD: Smurkzgrad celebrates "We Love the President Day"!!!
Turn 379, 1727 AD: You have constructed a Laboratory in Irkutzk. Work has now begun on a Transport.
Turn 380, 1730 AD: You have discovered Artillery!
Turn 380, 1730 AD: Cumae celebrates "We Love the President Day"!!!
Turn 380, 1730 AD: Islam has spread in Cumae.
Turn 381, 1732 AD: You have constructed a Coal Plant in Kiev. Work has now begun on Ironworks.
Turn 381, 1732 AD: Cumae celebrates "We Love the President Day"!!!
Turn 381, 1732 AD: Huayna Capac has made a Permanent Alliance with Kublai Khan!
Turn 382, 1734 AD: Smurkzgrad celebrates "We Love the President Day"!!!
Turn 382, 1734 AD: You have constructed a Coal Plant in Ravenna. Work has now begun on a Destroyer.
Turn 382, 1734 AD: Kublai Khan adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 382, 1734 AD: Kublai Khan adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 383, 1736 AD: Vladivostok celebrates "We Love the President Day"!!!
Turn 383, 1736 AD: Smurkzgrad celebrates "We Love the President Day"!!!
Turn 384, 1738 AD: Vladivostok celebrates "We Love the President Day"!!!
Turn 384, 1738 AD: Great Scientist has been born in Timbuktu!
Turn 384, 1738 AD: Hatshepsut has declared war on Montezuma!
Turn 384, 1738 AD: Great Scientist has been born in Pi-Ramesses!
Turn 384, 1738 AD: Alexander Graham Bell has been born in Tokyo!
Turn 384, 1738 AD: Raphael has been born in Mecca!
Turn 384, 1738 AD: Washington adopts Representation!
Turn 384, 1738 AD: Washington adopts Free Religion!
Turn 384, 1738 AD: Great Scientist has been born in Karakorum!
Turn 385, 1740 AD: You have discovered Rocketry!
Turn 385, 1740 AD: The borders of Cumae have expanded!
Turn 386, 1742 AD: You have constructed a Coal Plant in Irkutzk. Work has now begun on a Transport.
Turn 387, 1744 AD: A Chinese revolt has taken place in Shanghai!
Turn 388, 1746 AD: Ravenna celebrates "We Love the President Day"!!!
Turn 388, 1746 AD: The borders of Rome have expanded!
Turn 388, 1746 AD: Great Scientist has been born in London!
Turn 388, 1746 AD: Julius Caesar has declared war on Tokugawa!
Turn 389, 1748 AD: You have trained a Transport in Irkutzk. Work has now begun on a Destroyer.
Turn 389, 1748 AD: Ravenna celebrates "We Love the President Day"!!!
Turn 389, 1748 AD: The borders of Antium have expanded!
Turn 389, 1748 AD: Islam has spread in Rome.
Turn 390, 1750 AD: Tsongkhapa has been born in Madrid!
Turn 390, 1750 AD: Frederick adopts Representation!
Turn 390, 1750 AD: Tlatelolco has been captured by the Aztec Empire!!!
Turn 390, 1750 AD: Montezuma adopts Vassalage!
Turn 391, 1752 AD: You have discovered Fission!
Turn 391, 1752 AD: The borders of Shanghai have expanded!
Turn 391, 1752 AD: William Shakespeare has been born in Persepolis!
Turn 391, 1752 AD: Tokugawa adopts Representation!
Turn 393, 1756 AD: Louis XIV has 570 gold available for trade
Turn 393, 1756 AD: Tenochtitlan has been captured by the Egyptian Empire!!!
Turn 393, 1756 AD: Louis XIV has completed The Eiffel Tower!
Turn 394, 1758 AD: Mansa Musa has 260 gold available for trade
Turn 394, 1758 AD: Kiev can no longer work on The Eiffel Tower. The lost ? is converted into 93?!
Turn 394, 1758 AD: Alexandria can no longer work on The Eiffel Tower. The lost ? is converted into 357?!
Turn 394, 1758 AD: Rembrandt van Rijn has been born in Heliopolis!
Turn 394, 1758 AD: Johannes Vermeer has been born in Berlin!
Turn 395, 1760 AD: Mansa Musa has 630 gold available for trade
Turn 395, 1760 AD: Hatshepsut has 540 gold available for trade
Turn 395, 1760 AD: Louis XIV has 60 gold available for trade
Turn 395, 1760 AD: has 200 gold available for trade
Turn 395, 1760 AD: You have discovered Fiber Optics!
Turn 395, 1760 AD: Frederick has made peace with Tokugawa!
Turn 396, 1762 AD: Gandhi has 130 gold available for trade
Turn 396, 1762 AD: Louis XIV has 130 gold available for trade
Turn 396, 1762 AD: Beijing will grow to size 15 on the next turn
I don't think this was a good idea. Isn't the only coal we have from a trade? If the trade is ended we lose the plants benefit, but retain the negative. Instead, Ravenna should have built a different type of plant.
That isn't good at all. No matter what they're allies for the rest of the game. You fight one, you fight them both. Plus, when figuring up the dom limit they use their own land/pop plus half their allies. As a player you can really use a PA to your advantage, but I'm unsure how two AI's will use it. We should really watch them closely.
One note: we are over-teching ourselves I think. Production will probably not follow (I may be wrong).
Yeah, this is often the problem I have in my HoF games. Trying to balance out tech research and production can be very tricky. We need to stop and take a look at how things are going and make some decisions. Do we slow research down, keep it moving, etc.?
I don't have a chance to look at the save tonight (I'm going to bed), so I'm unsure on the coal question. Do we have our own source of coal, or are we getting it in trade?
@Methos:
we are trading coal with Mansa BUT the roman town on our continent has it. I think we could want to prepare an small task force to secure it... I was not willing to go nuclear and Hydro are not always available.....
On bulbing the artist, I think he would go mass-media (like 2000 beakers)
@Niklas:
I could have noticed it earlier, should really have done the math, because I could have cashrushed in Kiev (at least the plant). This is why calculations/previsions are good...
I think we could check which cities will build spaceship parts, and prepare a massive cashrush for the space elevator... GP could be used for GA (I think) since it is our only way of making faster builds. So every town not on spaceship parts could be on Gpp if they have the possibility of making it... We could be able to get one from Antium really soon now, maybe Moscow if we solve the health. And Vlad. We have one GA, that's 3 more, a 4th would be terrific...
By the way I should redo today an estimation of increased production, since we should have +50% from Labs +50% from Elevator, which means my estimated increase in production is not fine for parts.
Ok just checking that I was not saying something wrong...
We are at current 100% rate at 41 turns of science completion.
Appollo is 20 turns away from completion. Side note: Kiev should keep working Rice. If we solve its health issues it will also work the workshops.
Hmmm Ok. Kiev is not optimised . Working rice it should switch to one workshop from the plain farm and complete Appollo in 19 turns. Should really have seen that earlier.... Sorry.
We need:
5 casings --> 1200 Alu
3 thrusters --> 1800 Alu
1 stasis --> 1800
1 life support --> 1500 Copper
1 cockpit --> 1500 Copper
1 engine --> 2400
1 Docking bay --> 3000 Alu
Building these can start in 20 turns. Space elevator is next target (we need it, rushed by GE from fusion and cash I think). Building it in Ravenna ? Moscow ? Irk ?
If we look at current Kiev speed, 2400 for engine should be done in.... 27 turns (26 base hammer, *3.5 = 91). With Biology we are able to throw in one more workshop -> 24 turns. We could also steal Uranium from Moscow, mining it. And solving health, we could workshop the SW plain probably.
Still it means to get Appollo + Engine, we are around 44 turns.
I stop here but we need to check if we can build remaining parts close to that. It may also mean the we want to finish (last tech) with something we can build quick (in Kiev ?).
This short estimation of production speed clearly shows that our production cities are not really optimized for pure production yet. We need to do that. I do not mind killing some towns to put a workshop that will save 1 turn of production. I do not mind using GA/GS for golden age IF I can proove it saves 1 or 2 turns. I think we'll finish the game in the next 3 turnset, slo let's be sure we do not waste any turn (as I did in Kiev) by not looking at how we can fully optimize our production. So let's play stop in our turnsets if we think something weird can be tried (simulated) I'll do some math, if I have too
And I plan tonight to have a look at what we could get from State Property (even if I am pretty sure 2 turns of anarchy are not worth it).
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And 3,... I am compiling numbers right now:
and +50% 
towards SS parts.
.
.
Few worker actions.
I'll do some math, if I have too 
