SGOTM 03 - Smurkz

[Marc Aurel]

Strategy: Now I also have an overview over the situation Here are my conclusions:


Research

The start island is relatively large, so I am a little bit torn between voting for early sailing and getting a foot on other islands and settling only on this continent first. Sailing enables the lighthouse, what makes our seafood even more effective.

The clear strength of the continent are the masses of gems we have around. But we need iron working fast to make good use of them. Seeing whether we have iron or copper even helps with dotmapping. From this point it additionally is a good idea to research BW ATM. So I am happy with the situation I 've got. We have no use for agri unless we have IW.

We definitely have to include our +100% GP points strength in our strategy. We have stone around. That makes stonehenge and the pyramids easier. But the Parthenon would be a real danger for all other in our hands. However we have no marble. So it would be risky to try to get it. Even more since we have no real other use for Polytheism. There is something to discuss and I have not yet made up my mind. In any case we need masonry for stone and pyramids and a GP farm is mandatory IMHO. For that I looked for a city to have 3 food in its radius. I came to prefer light blue dot in my map below.

After BW, I think an order might be :

The wheel
Pottery for the granaries (up to here it is important for my turnset)
Masonry for the stones when we will have settled red dot
Sailing, (lighthouses and galleys if we find a much superior region to settle on)
IW,
Agri,
AH,
Myst, to set out for either CS Slingshot or Parthenon or so


Dotmapping

It was reaaly hard! For the reasons that zyxy has explained. I moved around dots very long and finally came to a conclusion:
I tend to prefer Methos Red dot to make an early production city with some help for commerce. More however, I think, it will be important to use all the seafood around to fire up our population. zyxys map just does not make use of two important sea ressoures. Since Red dot will be our only city that is not located one the shore I think it is not that much critical to be away from teh sea. zyxys map however makes superior use of the gems, since he has 3 in his green dot city, what makes it more effective to install multiplying buildings like the library. But after long thought, I decided to vote for two cities with two gems only, since I want those gems to work earlier. Zyxys blue dot will be too slow growing IMHO. So I left it out in favour of looking for other places to settle on other islands with other ressources that help us to grow our cities by increasing happiness. Here is my approach for the discussion.



Growth

We will need two WBs. I agree to move the scout back. Fogbusting against barbs will eb more important. We learn to know the others early enough and now we can in any case not yet trade techs. But we will have boats around soon. After the WBs, I think warrior-worker or so

I will play tomorrow around 20 GMT if anybody wants to be around if something special happens. That’s your time for comments.

 

[zyxy]

Plan for the next 20 turns sounds good to me. I suppose you will whip the first WB on your set?

I would rather research IW right after pottery. But then I usually do not bother with wonders too much. A big problem on this map is that we have very little production on the starting island.

I would like to see where the copper is. Perhaps it will make our dotmapping choices easier.

 

[Marc Aurel]

Your wish is my command. Here is the copper.



- Relatively far away!

 

[battchy]

I don't think we should plan on utilizing that copper then. Stretching to get to that Island any time soon will be very tough. I think we should focus on our main island and plan to only waging one (maybe 2) offensive wars, when we get to Astro and Cossacks. It will be very, very easy to defend our island until we have galleys, given how crappy the AI is at cross-water wars.

I would be very surprised if we don't have Iron and horses somewhere on our island.

 

[Methos]

Your wish is my command. Here is the copper.

I believe Red dot should be next (using MA's dotmap), followed by blue which would control the copper (with an expansion). I'd prefer to keep the fish in blue's radius for the additional food.

We're going to need IW with all this jungle on our landmass, though I'm still undecided on our tech order.

 

[Methos]

I don't think we should plan on utilizing that copper then. Stretching to get to that Island any time soon will be very tough. I think we should focus on our main island ....

Not sure if you noticed, but the copper is on our main land.

 

[battchy]

Oops, my bad. I thought that was a seperate landmass due to the scope of the picture...

Given that, what are thoughts about hustling over to that area to make that our 'red' city? I know it will take a while to walk our settler that far (unless we have sailing), but it's actual straight-line distance from the capital would not be massive and it's not a bad production city. If we want to go for Colossus, we need that copper...

 

[Niklas]

I'm also keen on getting to IW, it will be hard to do anything useful with any other towns otherwise. I'm not so sure about the dotmaps, but we can discuss that after MA has finished.

 

[Marc Aurel]

I am still stuck for research after BW. Sure IW is needed for many things, but it takes 32 turns. OK that will shorten as the city grows, but that is also valid for the other way. We will get based on current research wheel, pottery and masonry in 37 turns. The clearing of jungle additionally takes very long. All this time we would have to live without the cottages and the quarry. In my opinion it just takes too long for IW that will not pay off early enough. But I am unsure on how to proced with two opinions contra.

EDIT : Oops, I missed that zyxy argued for IW after pottery. That we can discuss. Sorry

 

[Methos]

I'd agree to not go IW after BW. The 32 turns could be spent better elsewhere.

 

[zyxy]

I am pretty happy that at least we can have copper at some point.

I don't really think we'll be settling very early, so IW after pottery should be fine. A quick and very rough calculation: whip WB now, finish warrior and whip second WB in 15 turns, whip worker(?) 15 turns after that, follow with warrior and (whipped?) settler gives a settler in about 40-50 turns from now. Research Wheel = 10 turns, Pott = 10, IW = 25, that means we get all three techs 45 turns from now (probably a bit more, say 50). So IW and settler come around the same time.

I like MA's blue dot. It misses out on two luxes, but I agree we need the seafood source.
MA's red dot is very cramped and only has 12 useable unshared tiles - is this enough? In this setup, the rice of course would be used by the lightblue GP farm, but red dot can irrigate some grass for extra food (wherever we put it).

 

[Marc Aurel]

OK. Not much has happened as expected. No, zyxy, I didn’t whip the first WB. I decided however to whip the second one, where we saved more turns. (22) The first just had too much hammers already in in the box to be worth the 15 turns of 1 unhappiness point and we just finished BW when the first WB (hehe) was ready.

First I have to say a “well done” to zyxy for the first turnset. It has been absolutely the best to go for BW and get a fast grip on the whip!

Here is the log:

Turn 1, 3370 BC: Mozcow grows to size 3, decide to work another wood to finish the first WB faster. That just saved 6 turns for the WB, but cost only 3 turns for the next growth.

Turn 2, 3340 BC: zzzzzzzz

Turn 3, 3310 BC: zzzzzzzz

Turn 4, 3280 BC: We meet a Chinese archer on the same island where we met the Greek. Say hello to Mao. Hinduism is founded somewhere in the world.

Turn 5, 3250 BC: zzzzzzzz

Turn 6, 3220 BC: zzzzzzzz

Turn 7, 3190 BC: zzzzzzzz

Turn 8, 3160 BC: zzzzzzzz

Turn 9, 3130 BC: We discover BW and find the copper as posted on the map. The WB in Mozcow is finished and sets sails.

Turn 10, 3100 BC: We revolt to slavery, Our first Work boat reaches the fish and we throw out the nets. We whip the second WB, saving us 22 turns of production, but reducing Mozcow to size 2.

Turn 11, 3070 BC: The second WB starts its journey.

Turn 12, 3040 BC: And catches the clams.

Turn 13, 3010 BC: We are back at size 3 in Mozcow.

Turn 14, 2980 BC: Our scout kills a lion while defending. Promote him woodsman to speed up the healing. He can always reach a wood tile.

Turn 15, 2950 BC: Since we cannot grow anymore ATM, I tried to optimise with the tiles worked in Mozcow the time when our warrior finishes to be fast and as close as possible to the next growth step. The warrior will decrease our unhappiness by Military Protection for the people. SO if he is ready we can grow again.

Turn 16, 2920 BC: zzzzzzzz

Turn 17, 2890 BC: zzzzzzzz

Turn 18, 2860 BC: zzzzzzzz

Turn 19, 2830 BC: zzzzzzzz

Turn 20, 2800 BC: Here I hand over the file. The warrior is due in 1 turn, the wheel and growth is due in 2 turns.

Here is the save

 

[Marc Aurel]

@zyxy: You exactly can point out what is the weakness of that scheme. My reasoning started with blue dot. I realised that we will not get this town grow and so would miss on using the gems. With a bleeding heart I moved blue dot north well knowing that I would miss two ressources for that move. But then I did all to not lose another ressource and so I wanted to get the gems NW of our starting position on all costs. Light blue dot was born by my belief, that we are doomed to make somehow effective use of the 100% GP points bonus, if we want to have any chance to be sucessful this time (I must admit, that I was very disappointed with rank 6 after having had a dream start in SGOTM02) So I looked for a town that could gather 3 food ressources in its radius. That way this dot map came into being. But I had many problems seeing it as a good alternative and I know well what are the advantages on your map, zyxy!

 

[Niklas]

Alright, looks good!

Roster:

• zyxy
• Marc Aurel - Just Played
• Niklas - UP!
• unkle - On Deck!
• Methos - Warming up
• battchy
• Cliftonbazaar

I've got it and will post a strategy later today, play tomorrow most probably.

 

[zyxy]

Very well done!

I would like to build a third boat for exploration, while we grow the capital. Perhaps once the capital gets one unhappy guy we can whip a worker?

 

[Methos]

Very well done!

I would like to build a third boat for exploration, ....

I agree. I'm curious if there's anyone else on that landmass to the southeast, other than the two we've already met.

Edit: If we have the time we might built a fourth WB to explore to the SW too.

 

[unkle]

Sorry guys I am being unexpectedly busy in RL until thursday night time... Hopefully I'll be able to catch up what is happening tomorrow, and be ready to play.
I can see that things are moving really well, so couting on my teammates currently, but kepping my spot on the deck !

 

[Niklas]

Ok, here are my brief thoughts on the turnset at hand.

I would like to see a worker before the next WB. I too am curious where our neighbours might be, but it will not affect how we play the game at this stage, so IMO it can wait. A worker on the other hand can be put to good use immediately by chopping. We should be able to build a worker in 9 turns after the warrior is completed. We could possibly use the whip when it becomes available in what should be 5 turns, and let the overflow go into the next WB.

The Wheel comes in two turns, after that I continue on Pottery which should take around 10 turns. At that point we want the worker ready to cottagize. After Pottery I'll set research to IW, which will go way past the end of my turnset.

The only real question I see regarding this turnset is whether/when to whip. With the warrior and without whip crankiness we could sustain size 5, with a huge food surplus. I see no point in using this surplus for anything other than whipping at this stage, and the occasional settler and worker, so unless anyone would argue against it I will whip as often as I'm allowed.

EDIT: Will play tomorrow hopefully.

 

[zyxy]

I would rather explore west than east (because we have already seen the eastern neighbours). Btw, is tech cost depending on the number of known civs that know the tech (like in civ3)?

Please be careful what you chop! Our capital has no production tiles except for the forests and a few ugly plains, and I would like to preserve the forests as much as possible - or at least wait until Math so that we get full value.

I agree on using the whip often, but let's try to limit whip unhappiness to 1 red face. This also means that it is best to whip expensive stuff like workers and settlers and use the overflow to build warriors/WB's. I am not sure whether we need to invest a hammer in the build before whipping to keep pop cost down.

Good luck!

 

[Niklas]

Oh, when saying whip as often as allowed, I mean whip as soon as the old crankiness runs out. There's nothing (except a barbarian standing outside our undefended capitol) that would make me whip otherwise.

Ok, I'll see about those forests.