SGOTM 03 - Team VQ

namliaM · Nov 26, 2006

dot said:
(50 Hindu cities + the shrine + market + grocer + bank + wall street) = 150 pt. How many percent does that make? Techslider-wise, I mean?

I dont think we need to worry about money, from the test game I played. I sold/traded every tech I got after Alpha/Currency to (almost) each and every civ out there. allways running 100% science with a -50 gpt. The key is selling techs, not selling religion.

From a single early tech like CoL I would get well over 500 gold and go over 1500 gold for construction/machinery.

One thing I think I am sure of, what ever we do... We need fishing as tech #1. So we can work those Clams with workboats (4/0/2 fhc). Food early = king.
However fishing first, means losing 88 commerce on the religion chase...
at size 2 we can be working 2 clams or FP + Grass Spice.
Taking into account maybe we have 1 workboat... that is 6/4 (f/c) vs 5/2. This means that we gain 2 commerce per turn. 88/2 = 44 turns.
At size 4 without Fishing we will be working the 2 spice and possibly the a forrest for 3 commerce.
Where size 4 with Fishing, FP + Clams + Spice = 6. That is 88/(6-3) = 29 turns.

In the practice game I had Hinduism founded turn 28 (Spain) and Buddism turn 13 (Inca). No where near the needed 29 turns to get (near) the return on fishing. So if we want to have a (good) shot at Hinduism we want to go for it from the start, skipping fishing.

GreyFox · Nov 26, 2006

Despite what I said earlier, I think we should forget abt the early religions. We do not start with Mysticism ... it will be real difficult to grab hindu. I proposed we use the Pracrice game tactics of doing a scientists specialists and go for the philosophy lightbulb.

We should still go fishing first ... who knows, we may get lucky and pop mysticism from a hut :mischief:

namliaM · Nov 26, 2006

I went and I made 4 moscows.... Starting from the practice save 4000 BC, NOT working the Copper this time... As we cannot count on it beeing there.

*Hey where did the Imageshack link go???*

A) Workboats, max food/optimal whipping
Tech path: Fishing, BW, Sailing, Masonry (151 beakers researched)
for a total of 730 beakers. 13 hammers into the Barracks + 11 to be added.
Outline:
Start building barracks, research Fishing
Turn 8 Learn Fishing start workboat
Turn 28 BW in, start sailing
Turn 30 WB #1 => WB
Turn 34 (near size 4) whip WB #2
Turn 35 WB #2, start warrior
Turn 41 1 unhappy face
Turn 42 Warrior => Settler (on size 4), start Masonry
Turn 49 Whip settler, for 2 pop
Turn 50 (what you see)

B) Workboats ASAP/"max" hammers
Same techpath as A. Except masonry has 155 beakers in it. => Total 734.
19 hammers into barracks + 1 to be added.
Settler one turn underway and 1 turn closer to growing.
Start building barracks, research Fishing
Turn 8 Learn fishing, start WB.
Turn 11 Work Plains Spices instead of Grass Spices (-1 fpt/+1hpt)
Turn 25 Finish WB #1, Start warrior
Turn 28 BW in, start WB#2
Turn 29 Whip WB#2
Turn 30 Start Warrior
I forget the timing of the warrior, but no unhappy and work barracks if needed.
Turn 41 Size 4, start Settler.
Turn 42 Sailing => Masonry
Turn 48 Whip settler for 2 pop.

C) Religious Russia
Tech Path: Myst, Poly, Fishing (I think we need this sooner rather than later), Masonry, Mono
No BW => No whipping...
Outline:
Turn 27 Hindu founded, revolt to Hindu
Turn 35 Fishing in Start WB #1
Turn 47 WB #1 finish, Start #2
Turn 49 Judaism founded (SPAIN)
74 beakers into Mono for a total of 674 beakers.
13/45 WB + 5 to be added.
46/75 Barracks.
This is the biggest city and we have +1

but we missed Judaism. So no fishing untill Mono? => Even less beakers + much less food?
Even taking out fishing, Spain would have beat me. (74 + 88) = 152 out of 268 for mono.

D) Worker
Outline
Research BW, Start warrior
Turn 11 start Worker
Turn 15 continue Warrior (to prevent decay and have the time to do this)
Turn 16 Continue Worker
Turn 20 BW in Revolt, research Fishing, Sailing, Masonry (108 for a total of 687)
Turn 21 Whip worker for 1 pop,
Turn 22 Finish and start warrior
Turn 42 WB #2 finish.
The worker chopped like mad, cutting down 4 forrests and working on #5 (ignoring the copper like I said). 38/150 produced on the settler, need 2 more turns then whip for 2 pop. Setller is 3 turns late vs B but we have an extra worker. Also lost 4 forrests in the process.

I think I favour B, maybe if indeed there is copper there... this may change things in favour of D.

About the tech path, If we do go for B, we can skip masonry a bit... and pick up some worker techs?
Next up in Moscow would depend I think... Either whip a Worker (for 2) or whip a Lighthouse (for 2).
After the Lighthouse, offcourse we want to have Masonry so we can start on the Great one.... Keeping the overflow from the barracks, worker and lighthouse destined for the Great one... That is about 60 hammers into TGL.
Lets not forget about Currency (+1 trade route) and Castles! (+1 trade route). Castles come with Engineering.
Mid term teching would seem to be:
Alpha, Currency, CoL, Engineering/CS
Are we still thinking Oracle? TGL is going to demand enough hammers I think... and should deliver more Commerce than 600-700 beakers worth in the long run...

*now on to Alg Ore

*

Oh allmost forget, do we want to setup a plan for GPs? Seems like in SGOTM2 bulbing techs was quite usefull. This month??
We dont (much) need Astronomy, except for the Observatories... maybe...
Techpath: Semi beeline Education??

dot · Nov 26, 2006

@namliaM: Could you post your initial save so I could work with it? Thanx in advance.

Oh, and thanx for testing!

.

dot · Nov 26, 2006

Here is the spoiler from my last testgame where I didn't go for Stonehenge at all. I still missed out on the GLh in ~~525BC~~ 595BC with eight turns left. But I've got the Oracle. And Hinduism and Monotheism. The spoiler only contains the first 50 turns, though. To be comparable to your 50, namliaM.

And I've removed all turns from the autolog where nothing happend.

Spoiler :

Kind regards all, .

namliaM · Nov 26, 2006

dot said:
@namliaM: Could you post your initial save so I could work with it? Thanx in advance.

Oh, and thanx for testing!

.

I didnt make my own, I stole the 4000BC safe from the practice game...

Meatbuster · Nov 26, 2006

Checking in.

Spoiler secret notes from SGOTM3 practice :

Depends on if we decide to found Bud/Hin though... very unlikely since we're guaranteed to have religious leaders like Izzy and Hatty on the map.

Cosmichail said:
After reading CFR from start to finish these guys discussed a lot before playing so team participation is mandatory or else. (you get sent to Siberia)

Ok, at least I learned this during the practice game rather than the actual SGOTM: "If in doubt, ask first."

More talk, less play then.

namliaM · Nov 27, 2006

Trade routes: Dont forget Engineering, I know I did... Castles +1 trade route
TGL, Castles, Currency = 5 traderoutes = 5*2 commerce early on...

I will try and run a test on Bronze first, tho I am betting that the 30+ turns delay on the workboats is going to cost dearly.
Why currency after Compass? And why Currency so late?
I expect with such a low production capitol that that one tile or the Plains tile will contain a production source, i.e. Bronze/Iron/Horses. Tho with a Gythar special you never know.
I think I like Fishing, BW, Sailing as the first techs... We can get galleys out fast => More trade routes faster.
Plus bring a scout for potential GH popping, tho there wont be more than 2 or 3 max.
Plus, meet religious civs faster => Earlier religion?
The biggest plus yet, is the early lighthouse => +2 food for "free"

AI are seriously bad at popping huts on foreign islands.

We then want masonry in time to start working on TGL...
Something like (The wheel =>) Pottery after Sailing for the Granary (Growth => more Whip) followed by Writing (OBs) for exploring.
If moscow needs to slow down on growing we can pop down a town across the water and share (one of) the clams for growing that.

We can handle early barbs with Warrior fogbusting I expect, assuming our starting island is not that big...

I think TGL and Oracle is going to be tight and a big drain on our production abilities if we dont find any Marble (soon).
TGL with 2*2 free commerce per city, in say 5 cities... 20 free commerce per turn. 5 turns to 100 commerce, if we translate that commerce into say 70% beakers, thats 70 beakers in 5 turns.
So in 50 turns (after settling town #5 offcourse) we have equalled (700 beakers) the Oracle and doing better.

I think this may well be one game where it pays off to stay neutral for a long while, i.e. stay in NSR due to the great benifit of trade routes.
Also this will allow us to switch to AI religion when the ask us to, giving us a perminant +1

The "brothers and sisters of the fait" is not perminant IIRC.

Meatbuster · Nov 27, 2006

Currency is that late on the list since we probably won't be researching it (trading it) and that starting on Colossus and GLib as early as possible is better than Currency which we can pick up anytime. Besides, with GLighthouse, we already have 3 trade routes per coastal city and I don't think an additional one will make any more difference, unless we lose GLighthouse and that's when we should pick up Currency earlier.

I wouldn't count on us being on a deserted island like on the practice game. Maybe it will be a bigger snaky island.

namliaM · Nov 27, 2006

All below have been mentioned (in no particular order):
+ TGLighthouse
+ Colossus
+ TGLib
+ Oracle
+ ToA

Geez, where are we going to find all these hammers? Not in our capitol that is for sure...
Do we really want to be aiming to building all these wonders? We will have to prioritize some I think....

I am not counting on anything... I am even taking into account we have one big Pangea...
One thing I think we can be sure of is that we can circumvent the world by galley... I have generated a few maps, and this was allways possible...

Meatbuster · Nov 27, 2006

Rameses is not on the map so that's one less Oracle-wannabe. HCapac (IND/FIN) is however, on the map and that's a very bad thing.

Capital city has good food and would be doing our settlers, workers. Maybe Lighthouse -> GLighthouse also since it has trees.

Second city (hopefully a production city) can start on the Lighthouse->GLighthouse immediately then ToA. I think we could just forego the Oracle since it's probably a lost cause against HC. Or probably get Metal Casting for free if we actually win.

Third city for military.

Colossus can be built later. GLib must be built in the capital (somehow!)

EDIT: I was looking at the 50 turns tryouts you posted and I'd also pick B (except we should be building a non-great Lighthouse and not Barracks). Even with no copper, Archers would do well in the jungles north of our capital (assuming we're not on the deserted island like in the practice game).

namliaM · Nov 27, 2006

Warriors will do for a while, untill Axemen show up....

Why not build barracks/Lighthouse??

Barracks is the only thing that will hold the hammers from turn 0-8 and survive the Workboat builds (some 20 turns long).
Units start to degrade to soon, IIRC after 10 turns, they start losing 1 hammer/turn. The first workboat takes 16 turns, which would leave only 1 or 2 hammers at the time the 2nd workboat is started on a warrior.

Lighthouse = +2 food = allways good. I recon we can build TGLight in the capitol before city #2 even finish its Lighthouse.
Whip the barracks for 2, put 25+ hammers overflow into TGLight
Build the lighthouse, while we grow... whip for 2, put 25+ hammers overflow into into GLight
Build some warrior or Granary.... grow to 4
Start worker with the extra food, whip for 2, put 25+ overflow into TGLight

Notice we allready have 80+ hammers now into TGLight... Growing base 2 to base 4 takes 13 turns working the clams and FP. Offcourse this yields (near) no hammers of its own... but whippin' workers and settlers is more efficient than growing them...

I.e. size 4 working 2 clams, FP + Grass Spice.
Whip settler and recover 2 pop = 17 turns
Full build the settler = 19 turns

Offcourse this comes at the cost of some commerce =>
4 turns at size 2 => 4*2 commerce = 8 commerce
4 turns at size 3 => 4*1 commerce = 4 commerce => Total 12
But gets the settler out 10 turns earlier, which in itself pays (nearly) for the 12 commerce loss
and free's up production in the capitol for something else
and allows our new city to produce earlier

By my estimations/calculations... If we want to, we could have settler #2 out by turn 64 and have 26 hammers left over to stick into something else (i.e. Lighthouse -90- or Warrior -22-) inbetween settler #1 and settler #2.

Oh we need a worker too offcourse... So I made attached spreadsheet... and try to calculate... I think I got it right... So in order of build, each time whipping the worker/settler for 2 pop... Keeping moscow more or less at size 4.
+ 8 hammers from the first 8 turns
2 workboats (2nd boat is a 1 pop whip)
Warrior
Settler
26 hammers/Grow to 4
Settler
22 hammers/Grow to 4
Worker
57 hammers/Grow to 4
Worker
57 hammers/Growing towards 4

+ 26 + 22 + 57 + 57 = 162 hammers inbetween the settlers/workers to go someplace
At turn 92.... and we do have now 15 turns of whip angry pop to get over... i.e. hand build worker or settler? Or work forrests/plain spice for a few turns losing commerce gaining hammers. Or grow into angry 6 pop to whip something for 3 pop (TGLight?)

The first 90 hammers IMHO can go into Lighthouse... giving Moscow more food

. Leaving something like 72 hammers for something else...

Meanwhile gathering up a grand total of 1250 commerce/beakers (not counting new cities or trade routes to other civs)

Disclaimer: I sure hope I got this right... I intend to play test this this evening... Will probably find a bug or 2...

Edit, 28 nov 2006, 09:48 local time: Removed V1 spreadsheet after only 2 views...
V2 can be found in post post number 45

Cosmichail · Nov 27, 2006

Definitely an effective plan namliaM which will need careful consideration by all players including myself. I will look at the zip and do some math too but as usual I am sure you are on the right path. I really do think TGLighthouse is paramount. Also I do like the idea of selling techs as that's what is keeping us going in the practice game too. It seems to me that the AI doesn't do nearly as well on this type of map. That may work to our advantage. I do feel too though that we will need a religion of sorts whether early or late as it will help making friends. I would like to hear more from Bobrath on the game too. Hey Bob you have been nominated team leader (1 vote) but after discussions with other players on the phone some feel that Greyfox could fill that role too. We feel that the team leader should keep the team motivated, regular rosters, make a decision based on consensus and make grumpy comments. Geez who does that sound like. I am sure it doesn't matter to Bob who is team leader (I could be wrong) but I am changing my nomination to Greyfox since I do like "the cut of his jib". And as Frankcor said in another thread just keep it out of sight please. LOL

PS: we need someone to keep these crazy Dutchmans in line. (just two one is Flemish and as namliaM pointed out I am Canadian but hey I love The Netherlands as much as Canada.)

Cosmichail · Nov 27, 2006

Whip the barracks for 2, put 25+ hammers overflow into TGLight

namliaM I am confused about this statement. I tried it out but the overflow goes into the next build and TGLight isn't available until we build lighthouse. Am I missing something? So wouldn't it be better to start with a lighthouse whip that and put overflow into TGL. (then it would be available)

The Glighthouse is 300 hammers so it would take basically 12 rounds of overflow or somewhat less for us to get it. That would have also take into consideration happiness factor and growth. Growth is pretty quick with FP/and two clams but even so wouldn't it take a long time to build the TGL.

I did look at you excel sheet (first sheet) and concur with your timeline. Will get into it more and wow that is a lot of work. Also Robo I want to thank you for the practise SGTOM it helped me understand namliaM methodology.

frankcor · Nov 27, 2006

Lurker Sign-in:

Cosmichail invited me to sign-in here. I'll be paying close attention and taking names. Don't make me kibbitz!

dot · Nov 27, 2006

Hi, Robo Kai! Never played with you before. But that ain't hard since I haven't been playing a lot of SG's. Welcome! :goodjob:

Robo Kai said:
More talk, less play then.

Yes!

Cosmichail said:
Hey Bob you have been nominated team leader (1 vote) but after discussions with other players on the phone some feel that Greyfox could fill that role too.

Since I've been one of the players on the phone (skype) I hereby declare that I'm fine with both. But if pressed I'd vote for GreyFox due to his rather unique way of straightening things out.

No offence meant, bob.

We've also been discussing that it might be good to decide on a few more crucial things than getting caught up in "detail-discussions" - like I, for example, did. :blush:

Things that've been on our mind:

Do we wanna go for a ...
- ... diplomatic victory, or
- ... space victory?
Is our priority in playing this SGOTM set to ...
- ... primarily having a lot of fun?
- ... gaining experience and raising decent discussions?
- ... getting the laurels?
Multiple goals are obviously possible here!
Do we want to have our decisions made ...
- ... purely democratically, or
- ... mostly democratically with a team leader who can force and/or veto them if needed?

Just asking! My votes would be the following, though:

1. a
2. b thereby a with more b following. Hence: c! (Hopefully!)
3. b

Teamleader: GreyFox

And finally, welcome frankcor. Here man, have this: :whipped:

! Use it wisely.

Regards to all, .

Scowler · Nov 27, 2006

dot said:
Since I've been one of the players on the phone (skype) I hereby declare that I'm fine with both. But if pressed I'd vote for GreyFox due to his rather unique way of straightening things out. No offence meant, bob.

... and since I am also one of the "phoney" players my vote is also on record, with similar non-offensive intentions towards bob.

As for the rest of dot's post, yes those points have all been on my mind too... Thanks for posting them for me!

dot · Nov 27, 2006

Scowler said:
As for the rest of dot's post, yes those points have all been on my mind too... Thanks for posting them for me!

You're welcome.

bobrath · Nov 27, 2006

You mean I don't even have to campaign? Excellent. I vote for GreyFox as well!

Cosmichail · Nov 27, 2006

That's what I like about you Bob you are easy going and did a great job leading SGOTM02 to victory. Maybe we didn't win any laurels but we did finish the game in the top 10. Of course there is a question of scribe and I am volunteering (I must be nuts) but anyone who is a good writer itching to do this is more than welcome.

I felt that the subject of leader had to be discussed since we are nearing the save very soon. I do agree with Dot's choices and feel that a team leader must have the final say when there is dfference of opinion. Most of us have played together and now understand better our motivations. Robo Kai has put up a practice SGOTM and has demonstrated his skills there in that the game is going quite well. I hope it will is mirrored in this game. namliaM/Dot both have demonstrated different approaches which are worth considering. I suggest everyone take a look at namliaM spreadsheets to see and understand his approach. This looks to me to be quite a bit of work and it is great to see so many players taking such efforts already.

We all acknowledge the Great Lighthouse is very important for this type of map and our success. The question is do we whip it, through use of overflow or we build it in a more productive city. I think we should build it fairly soon as the AI will go for that too. I like the idea of early religion but in order to do any kind of whipping early we will need BW fairly soon. Definitely we are agreed that fishing must be first for any kind of success in teching quickly and quick growth for whipping. Looking forward to starting this soon.

The only player we need to hear from is Furrie but he is OOP until tomorrow I think at which I will leave him a PM to remind him of the thread and to check in.

Having 8 players is imo a strength since it will take the heat off a player if a skip is needed. CFR awoke me to the power of lightbulbing. (lightbulbed Astro very early in bypassing certain techs.) This too has a food rich city may be something worth considering when we get near Mass Media.

OK I stop now don't want to leave long posts and should learn from Bob. Short and sweet......

SGOTM 03 - Team VQ

Deity

Make it so ...

Deity

crossing the i's

crossing the i's

Deity

formerly Robo Kai

Deity

formerly Robo Kai

Deity

formerly Robo Kai

Deity

Dark Lord of The Sith

Dark Lord of The Sith

Emperor

crossing the i's

Mr. Understatement

crossing the i's

Emperor

Dark Lord of The Sith

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