In warlords however it depends on how long you have been at peace with the other civ..
SGOTM 03 - Team VQ
- Thread starter AlanH
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GreyFox
Make it so ...
@namliaM, dot: I did not say we don't need more workers, ever. I am saying we don't need more than 1 worker in the early game ... there's absolutely nothing a second worker can do, except sit down there and act busy (like what a lot of workers do in real life 
)
I have a recent game where I built (only) 1 worker, thinking there should be more than enough for the worker to do ... ended up I was force to divert my research to wheel so that he can do something useful instead of farming all the tiles which I would soon change to cottages. And that is not an archipelago map (it is Terran).
Monarch's happiness limit is not so high that "the fact that city is not growing while building worker/settler" would become useful.
You still need to show me why we need 2 workers prior to turn 100, where growing the city more would mean much more (commerce, whipping, etc).
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)I have a recent game where I built (only) 1 worker, thinking there should be more than enough for the worker to do ... ended up I was force to divert my research to wheel so that he can do something useful instead of farming all the tiles which I would soon change to cottages. And that is not an archipelago map (it is Terran).
Monarch's happiness limit is not so high that "the fact that city is not growing while building worker/settler" would become useful.
You still need to show me why we need 2 workers prior to turn 100, where growing the city more would mean much more (commerce, whipping, etc).
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Meatbuster
formerly Robo Kai
I thought there was a recommended 1 worker per city early game?
We may have noticed in SGOTM3 practice that we seem to be getting by with a "minimal navy". Which may not be a good idea...
We may have noticed in SGOTM3 practice that we seem to be getting by with a "minimal navy". Which may not be a good idea...
Ooh, didn't know that! Thanks, Gyathaar!
GreyFox
Make it so ...
If there is something for the workers to do ... my point is, there isn't until we learn wheel, argiculture, pottery!!!! Till then, we are better off growing and delaying extra workers ...
Cosmichail
Dark Lord of The Sith
If we are going for The Greatlighthouse we will have to do it well before 775BC as I noticed in Dot's tryout game nappy got it by turn 127 and in my try out game 775bc. (Robos game) I would like to see us get that as it really would be more effective than colossus and agree that we don't need 2 workers so early.
Going for early religion is a crapshoot with 50% odds according to my tryout using Robo's practice game but worked better with Dots. It may be in Robos game the AI with mys has got better commerce than Dots. Now I know that basing it on two games isn't much but I still believe with so many AI players we may be taking a big risk going for early religion. I would rather take the risk and try to get TGL since that will payoff big until economics.
Just how fast can we do it in capitol with whipping and overflow. I would like to see namliaM come up with excel calculations for that since he is quite good at it. If possible it needs to be built by at least 800BC at the latest or earlier. Show me your magic namliaM. I think if we are on island by ourselves we could take the chance for such a big payoff but somewhat at the expense of expansion. I think it's the only wonder we will ever need.
Going for early religion is a crapshoot with 50% odds according to my tryout using Robo's practice game but worked better with Dots. It may be in Robos game the AI with mys has got better commerce than Dots. Now I know that basing it on two games isn't much but I still believe with so many AI players we may be taking a big risk going for early religion. I would rather take the risk and try to get TGL since that will payoff big until economics.
Just how fast can we do it in capitol with whipping and overflow. I would like to see namliaM come up with excel calculations for that since he is quite good at it. If possible it needs to be built by at least 800BC at the latest or earlier. Show me your magic namliaM. I think if we are on island by ourselves we could take the chance for such a big payoff but somewhat at the expense of expansion. I think it's the only wonder we will ever need.
namliaM
Deity
Uhm peace huh Gyathaar... Funny, but I never check traderoute yields... or basicaly am not aware of them... they are just there... Sorry . dont have a link to trade routes.... just 'common' knowledge I read somewhere.
About the peace. I think we want total annihilation of civs we attack...
Fox, I am not saying we need 2 workers. I just used this to try and work out what the best "plan" was/is. i.e. do we want/need the 2 workboats and what impact does it have if we go religious and delay the workboats.
I also now have a variant in Excel which give me TGLight around turn 100.
We build the workboats, Warrior, Settler, Lighthouse, Barracks and worker.
The 2nd workboat, Settler, Lighthouse (62), barracks (78) and worker (94) all get whipped, Overflows from the latter 3 go into TGLight which finishes it at turn 103 with a 2 pop whip (not sure about the penalty for whipping a wonder tho!)
So we may need to delay it a few turns. but prior to 110 seems very doable, which gives us a 17 turn accoording to Cosmichael and . .
If the land allows us we could exchange the worker for a Settler. This variant I will studdy too.
"I studdied on stealing TGLight." => To "coin" a phrase.
I do think that early on also AI dont have that much navy + what navy they have is slow moving. Therefor we can probably manage with a skeleton navy. Eventually we want a somewhat bigger navy I think....
About the peace. I think we want total annihilation of civs we attack...
Fox, I am not saying we need 2 workers. I just used this to try and work out what the best "plan" was/is. i.e. do we want/need the 2 workboats and what impact does it have if we go religious and delay the workboats.
I also now have a variant in Excel which give me TGLight around turn 100.
We build the workboats, Warrior, Settler, Lighthouse, Barracks and worker.
The 2nd workboat, Settler, Lighthouse (62), barracks (78) and worker (94) all get whipped, Overflows from the latter 3 go into TGLight which finishes it at turn 103 with a 2 pop whip (not sure about the penalty for whipping a wonder tho!)
So we may need to delay it a few turns. but prior to 110 seems very doable, which gives us a 17 turn accoording to Cosmichael and . .
If the land allows us we could exchange the worker for a Settler. This variant I will studdy too.
"I studdied on stealing TGLight." => To "coin" a phrase.
I do think that early on also AI dont have that much navy + what navy they have is slow moving. Therefor we can probably manage with a skeleton navy. Eventually we want a somewhat bigger navy I think....
Meatbuster
formerly Robo Kai
I have a question about "Magellan's Voyage"... to Circumnavigate the globe, is it possible to, say piece the map of the globe together through buying maps and then get +1 movement doing so?
GreyFox
Make it so ...
Yes, Robo, yes. You don't need to actually circumnavigate ... all you need to do is to provide evidence that the globe is ... er, well, a globe (and not a flat piece of land supported by a tower of turtles).
--
--
Robo, as Greyfox pointed out, your map must show at least one exposed tile for every Longitude column of tiles. You can always tell when the AI is having trouble circumnavigating; they come begging for map trades.
In one SG, we found that we couldn't sail all the way around the world because the route was blocked by ice and land. But we popped a hut and the villagers gave us a map that revealed enough to give us the bonus next turn.
In one SG, we found that we couldn't sail all the way around the world because the route was blocked by ice and land. But we popped a hut and the villagers gave us a map that revealed enough to give us the bonus next turn.
namliaM
Deity
I find myself a little stuck with the first 8 hammers/turns, untill we can start Workboats.
A worker first build doesnt make sence to me...
If we put the hammers into a unit they start to decay pretty soon, IIRC after 10 turns.
The first workboat (hand build) takes 17 turns. So by the time that finish the first 8 hammers are gone allready.
So put the hammers into a building. OK This must be barracks, as it is the only building available.
By the time we get back around to that, i.e. 2 WBs-Warrior-Settler-Lighthouse-Barracks we are talking turn 60 and they are gone again.
But then... If we build a full Warrior first we delay the first workboat 4 turns to turn 31.
The next turn we can whip the second workboat immediatly (3 turn delay).
Fo = Food, Ha = Hammers, Com = Total (raw) Commerce, S = size Moscow. Totals at turn 33.
We are out a total of 17 food and 5 commerce. We gained 3 hammers, hmz this means we lose 5 of the initial 8 hammers anyway due to lost growing allready....
Then we can start working the settler some turns later (want to grow to 4 first, just to compare for now). Eventually delaying the settler to turn 52 instead of 49.
Plus in this scenario we grow allways a few (3?) turns later. Losing hammers/commerce all game long.
Building the full warrior first seems to delay our game by 3 turns.
My conclusion: Wasting the 8 hammers is better than building anything usefull...
I also tried a few scenarios for the first settler (all starting from Y above):
Fo = Food, Ham = Hammers, Com = Total (raw) Commerce, S = size Moscow, SA = Settler Away.
Totals at turn 55, production after the settler. This is including production that is produced inbetween the builds.
* On E I allready deducted the hammers for the settler which is to be build the next turn.
A vs B: B has more of everything, except the settler is 1 turn later.
B vs C: we have an extra warrior in C for MP in Moscow, settler 2 turns later.
C vs D: 13 food, 7 hammers positive for D, but settler 4 turns later.
D vs E: E gains 3 hammers and a Warrior (escort), but losses 20 food and the settler is 3 turns later.
So which is the smarter choice?
A worker first build doesnt make sence to me...
If we put the hammers into a unit they start to decay pretty soon, IIRC after 10 turns.
The first workboat (hand build) takes 17 turns. So by the time that finish the first 8 hammers are gone allready.
So put the hammers into a building. OK This must be barracks, as it is the only building available.
By the time we get back around to that, i.e. 2 WBs-Warrior-Settler-Lighthouse-Barracks we are talking turn 60 and they are gone again.
But then... If we build a full Warrior first we delay the first workboat 4 turns to turn 31.
The next turn we can whip the second workboat immediatly (3 turn delay).
Fo = Food, Ha = Hammers, Com = Total (raw) Commerce, S = size Moscow. Totals at turn 33.
Code:
- Fo Ha Com S
X 15 06 299 2 Warrior - WB - WB
Y 32 09 304 2 Waste 8 - WB - WB - WarriorThen we can start working the settler some turns later (want to grow to 4 first, just to compare for now). Eventually delaying the settler to turn 52 instead of 49.
Plus in this scenario we grow allways a few (3?) turns later. Losing hammers/commerce all game long.
Building the full warrior first seems to delay our game by 3 turns.
My conclusion: Wasting the 8 hammers is better than building anything usefull...
I also tried a few scenarios for the first settler (all starting from Y above):
Fo = Food, Ham = Hammers, Com = Total (raw) Commerce, S = size Moscow, SA = Settler Away.
Totals at turn 55, production after the settler. This is including production that is produced inbetween the builds.
Code:
- Fo Ham Com S SA
A 04 017 690 3 46 WB-WB-Settler @ Size 2
B 13 026 715 3 47 WB-WB-Grow 3 turns (add 3 hammers)-Settler @ Size 3
C 07 021 720 3 49 WB-WB-[b]Warroir[/b] (=grow to 4)-Settler @ Size 4
D 21 028 722 3 53 WB-WB-[b]Warrior[/b]-Grow to 5 (add 10 hammers)-Settler @ Size 5
E 01 031*722 3 56 WB-WB-[b]Warrior[/b]-[b]Warrior[/b]-Grow to 6 (add 16 hammers)-Settler @ Size 6A vs B: B has more of everything, except the settler is 1 turn later.
B vs C: we have an extra warrior in C for MP in Moscow, settler 2 turns later.
C vs D: 13 food, 7 hammers positive for D, but settler 4 turns later.
D vs E: E gains 3 hammers and a Warrior (escort), but losses 20 food and the settler is 3 turns later.
So which is the smarter choice?
namliaM
Deity
Something I noticed, which slipped my mind for some reason... We have a 50% (hammer) bonus on building workers, whipping = hammers.
A worker is something that simply has to be whipped this game ! ! ! ! !
It kindof works like this:
1) Put 1 turn at size 4 into a worker
Working 2 Clams + Plains Spice forrest + Grass Forrest, Moscow (which allready has a lighthouse) produces 2+5+5+1+2=13 food of which 4*2=8 is eaten. 7 Food surplus into the worker.
1+2+1= 4 hammers + 2 bonus, total 13
2) The next turn we have 13/90 produced on the worker, Whip for 2 pop, adding 135 hammers (2*45 * 150%) total 148
3) Add 7 more (6 food surplus + 1 hammer) to finish it next turn.
155 - 90 = 65 overflow, which go down by beeing devided again by 150%: 65 / 150% = 43.333 hammers overflow into the next project.
4) This appearently gets rounded up, or there is a small rounding issue....
Anyway, for a total of 2 pop (normaly 90 hammers) + 19 food + 5 hammers we get 1 worker and 44 hammers.
A worker is something that simply has to be whipped this game ! ! ! ! !
It kindof works like this:
1) Put 1 turn at size 4 into a worker
Working 2 Clams + Plains Spice forrest + Grass Forrest, Moscow (which allready has a lighthouse) produces 2+5+5+1+2=13 food of which 4*2=8 is eaten. 7 Food surplus into the worker.
1+2+1= 4 hammers + 2 bonus, total 13
2) The next turn we have 13/90 produced on the worker, Whip for 2 pop, adding 135 hammers (2*45 * 150%) total 148
3) Add 7 more (6 food surplus + 1 hammer) to finish it next turn.
155 - 90 = 65 overflow, which go down by beeing devided again by 150%: 65 / 150% = 43.333 hammers overflow into the next project.
4) This appearently gets rounded up, or there is a small rounding issue....
Anyway, for a total of 2 pop (normaly 90 hammers) + 19 food + 5 hammers we get 1 worker and 44 hammers.
namliaM
Deity
LOL Notice tho that 13 - 8 = 7...
2+5+5+1+2=13 should offcourse total 15 as is reflected by 13-8= 7.
Only one respons tho ? And no one commenting on the settler options...
2+5+5+1+2=13 should offcourse total 15 as is reflected by 13-8= 7.
Only one respons tho ? And no one commenting on the settler options...
Cosmichail
Dark Lord of The Sith
Even got a trademark for that too aye dot. Wow after playing this kind of map on my own I begin to realize the point Scowler is making. Metals are normally hard to come by on this type of map. I think we are going to need to be aggressive in scouting for good settling sites and necessary resources. What I also notice is the lack of luxury resources too although our first screenies show two spices. I really hope that's more land back there.
Regarding metals IW is going to be needed fairly soon as well and the more I think about it early religion just isn't feasible for numerous reasons:
1. We need BW early and good thing we have mining
2. Without iron we are basically screwed so it needs to be prioritized.
Ok we can build maces/grens (with copper) just fine but how the heck do you get the transports safely to the enemy without frigates. (yep they need iron of course everyone knows that) Crossbow/pikes/knights all need iron too. So we should get the tech soon and find it shortly thereafter and settle to get it.
What of the "cossacks". Horses are also hard to find on this type of map and you find you self spread out having to defend different islands which is a logistic nightmare. Having low sea level is going to be a pain since the landmasses are larger giving the AI more room to grow. One thing that worked for me was Angkor Wat and using priests in a food rich city. That does the trick nicely for production problems. Since we do want a religion going after Taoism is a good idea for the wonder Angkor Wat.
Less than 24 hours to the save being available. Who's first namliaM? I think the consensus is just to move the scout save and see what lies over the hill. Looking forward to it..
EDIT: I like B btw namliaM....
Regarding metals IW is going to be needed fairly soon as well and the more I think about it early religion just isn't feasible for numerous reasons:
1. We need BW early and good thing we have mining
2. Without iron we are basically screwed so it needs to be prioritized.
Ok we can build maces/grens (with copper) just fine but how the heck do you get the transports safely to the enemy without frigates. (yep they need iron of course everyone knows that) Crossbow/pikes/knights all need iron too. So we should get the tech soon and find it shortly thereafter and settle to get it.
What of the "cossacks". Horses are also hard to find on this type of map and you find you self spread out having to defend different islands which is a logistic nightmare. Having low sea level is going to be a pain since the landmasses are larger giving the AI more room to grow. One thing that worked for me was Angkor Wat and using priests in a food rich city. That does the trick nicely for production problems. Since we do want a religion going after Taoism is a good idea for the wonder Angkor Wat.
Less than 24 hours to the save being available. Who's first namliaM? I think the consensus is just to move the scout save and see what lies over the hill. Looking forward to it..
EDIT: I like B btw namliaM....
namliaM
Deity
Anyone can move the scout and take that needed Screeny I guess.....
I like B too, but I have yet to find an effective way of getting TGL.... Also to get it, it is atleast costing us 1 Settler and 1 Galley... I think...
Well in the end it costs us 300 hammers one way or another...
So far I have tried to do this without chopping the woods, we need those I think for "base" production in Moscow...
Or can we chop Moscow clean and make it a GP farm/cottage city with near no production except offcourse the faithfull
?
Edit: Please elaborate Cosmic, why B?
I like B too, but I have yet to find an effective way of getting TGL.... Also to get it, it is atleast costing us 1 Settler and 1 Galley... I think...
Well in the end it costs us 300 hammers one way or another...
So far I have tried to do this without chopping the woods, we need those I think for "base" production in Moscow...
Or can we chop Moscow clean and make it a GP farm/cottage city with near no production except offcourse the faithfull
?Edit: Please elaborate Cosmic, why B?
Meatbuster
formerly Robo Kai
I could pick C if I assume Mr. Settler will be
I think we don't immediately need a warrior on home base because of its extremely isolated coastal location otherwise I may have picked E....
1 settler and 1 galley could be enough sacrifice to have good commerce in the future, don't you think?
I think we don't immediately need a warrior on home base because of its extremely isolated coastal location otherwise I may have picked E....
1 settler and 1 galley could be enough sacrifice to have good commerce in the future, don't you think?
namliaM
Deity
In each of the options, the settler is whipped ASAP.
A+B are whipped for 1 pop
C+D are whipped for 2 pop
E is whipped for 3 pop
Well we need a MP in moscow, to keep the max of pop at 5 (or 4 with -1 for whipping). Otherwise we get another -1 for "We fear for our safety" I think allready at size 3.
The best senario I can think of, is that our closest neighbour has a capitol like 10 tiles from ours. We build 4 cities & add say 5 axemen. Meanwhile our neighbour build TGLight and adds 2 cities or so. The moment he finishes it, we take it from him...
But that is really a crap shoot, as one can never tell which AI will build it and when... It might as well get build on the exact opposit end of the world.
I would like to dive into tech bulbing as well. With cheap Universities we want to beeline Education I think. Both Paper and Education are Scientists bulb, I know that. Paper is pretty cheap and IIRC we wanted to bulb Philo right?
So we want to have a Scientist around when we get CoL (150 GPPs) and one when we get Paper (300 GPPs)?
Then we want a Priest for the shrine I think (450 GPPs) and another Priest possibly to burn on CS.
In my test game last night the Oracle got build in 1200 BC
and TGL in turn 109 (I forget the year) where I had 40 hammers to go.
A+B are whipped for 1 pop
C+D are whipped for 2 pop
E is whipped for 3 pop
Well we need a MP in moscow, to keep the max of pop at 5 (or 4 with -1 for whipping). Otherwise we get another -1 for "We fear for our safety" I think allready at size 3.
The best senario I can think of, is that our closest neighbour has a capitol like 10 tiles from ours. We build 4 cities & add say 5 axemen. Meanwhile our neighbour build TGLight and adds 2 cities or so. The moment he finishes it, we take it from him...
But that is really a crap shoot, as one can never tell which AI will build it and when... It might as well get build on the exact opposit end of the world.
I would like to dive into tech bulbing as well. With cheap Universities we want to beeline Education I think. Both Paper and Education are Scientists bulb, I know that. Paper is pretty cheap and IIRC we wanted to bulb Philo right?
So we want to have a Scientist around when we get CoL (150 GPPs) and one when we get Paper (300 GPPs)?
Then we want a Priest for the shrine I think (450 GPPs) and another Priest possibly to burn on CS.
In my test game last night the Oracle got build in 1200 BC and TGL in turn 109 (I forget the year) where I had 40 hammers to go.
GreyFox
Make it so ...
I would actually go for D, simply because of the superior hammer, food, commerce over C ...
Great, now that we each pick one different alphabet, let's roll a dice
Great, now that we each pick one different alphabet, let's roll a dice
namliaM
Deity
OK so my work was for nothing? ThanksGreyFox said:Great, now that we each pick one different alphabet, let's roll a dice
I took the list of tech bulbed by GPs and put them on the CFC tech chart (yes I know slightly outdated).
I think/hope it is a little easier to see where you need to be on the tree to bulb a certain tech with a certain GP.
Some intresting things
There are 2 techs that can be bulbed by GPs:
1) Future tech
2) CS
There are 7 techs that can only be bulbed by 1 GP
Military Tradition
Assembly Line
Steel
Flight
Wheel
Artillery
Composites
After researching:
The wheel, Agriculture, Fishing, sailing, Mining, masonry, BW, IW, Compas, Metal Casting, Machinery, Optics
You can use a Scientist to bulb.... Hunting ! Yay !
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