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SGOTM 03 - Team VQ

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Nov 24, 2006.

  1. AlanH

    AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Moderator Supporter GOTM Staff

    Jan 9, 2003
    Welcome to your C_IV SGOTM 3 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

    The Game
    As Peter The Great, Leader of All the Russias, you are charged with achieving a Diplomatic or Space Victory.

    This Monarch difficulty game is on a Standard size, Gyathaar-special, crowded map, at Epic speed, against 17 rivals. All victory conditions are enabled, but the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the teams who achieve the fastest Diplomatic or Space victory.

    Your team will play this map in Warlords version 2.08, using the standard HoF Mod for Windows version 2.08. This is currently HOF_Mod-2.08.001, but we shall use the latest version of the mod as at the start date for the game.

    Your start file will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page at midnight, server local time, at the start of December 1st.

    Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.

    Map Parameters
    Playable Leader/Civ - Peter of Russia
    Rivals - all the other 17 civs in version 1.61
    World size - Standard
    Difficulty - Monarch
    Landform - Archipelago, low sea level, tropical
    Game Speed - Epic
    AI Aggression - Aggressive
    Barbarians - Standard
    Permanent Alliances Enabled
    No City Razing

    • Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.
    • BOTH Civilization IV v1.61 and Warlords v.2.08 are supported for this SGOTM. No other versions can be used, and you will have to stick with your chosen version throughout the game.
    • Teams will compete for four awards for each version of the game - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher.
    • All teams must play the sponsored variant - awards will be given to teams who achieve Diplomatic or Space victories in the least turns.
    • All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

    Remember, Rule Number 11: Have Fun. :)
  2. bobrath

    bobrath Chieftain

    Nov 21, 2005
    FIRST! (kinda)... So any preference on order of play? I know I don't want to go first!
  3. GreyFox

    GreyFox Make it so ...

    Dec 28, 2005
    Where No One Has Gone Before
    We should discuss whether we want have a discussion on who to go first.


    Checking in ... it's good to be back with the original VQ ... let's start pouring in all the strategies!
  4. GreyFox

    GreyFox Make it so ...

    Dec 28, 2005
    Where No One Has Gone Before
    Re: starting location, we should settle right here and there ... too bad abt wasting a floodplains, but if we want to get the other clam resource, we must settle there.

    An alternative is to go 1 N, losing the clams and the other southern spices, but preserving a floddplains. Notice also all the resources bubble are pointing northward, and the coastal tiles seems to give a hint of tundra/snow, suggesting we are way south.

    A third alternative is to move 1E-1NE, losing all of the clams, but perhaps there be fishes on the eastern coast??

    So, before settling, suggest moving scout 1E-1NE to the forested hill, to reveal as much of the north eastern terrain as possible, then we discuss.
  5. namliaM

    namliaM Chieftain

    Apr 4, 2005
    Hey Checking in,

    Settle in place definatly, the food is just to good... Food = king in the early game.
    Get 2 workboats out ASAP, clearly

    Uhm, I think Great Lighthouse is important as we will have loads of trade partners early if we
    1) Stay in NRS
    2) Pick a right Religion
    Just wondering tho, are we going to aim for building it ourselves? Or gamble on a neighbour building it (close) and conquer it?

    IMHO Diplo is tough with so many opponents... So many people to keep friends with. AI are still bad at landings, so only conquest we may see is if 2 civs are on 1 island. Giving us a clear opponent in the elections and victory votes.

    Best chance for (early) victory IMHO is backdoor Diplo...

    @Greyfox: The resource indicators (IIRC) have been fixed so to not give away our position on the globe.

    @Team: Allways have a scout with a galley for exploring, I was able to pick up some nice GHs on the solo practice game I played while I was sick. Getting 2 galleys out (after we get writing for OBs) is high priority in my book.

    I also noticed with trading/selling techs, in particular after finished wonders, there is lots of gold to be made from selling techs. I was able to run 100% at -40 gpt constantly from dealing techs.

    Lets go find out how close the practice Island was in comparison to this one :)
  6. Cosmichail

    Cosmichail Dark Lord of The Sith

    Apr 26, 2006
    Checking in and settling on place seems good. Moving the scout N-NE to hill would be good to see what else is available. With the two sea resources I agree first builds should be workboats so we will need fishing. I like relgion but in this game will be very tricky with 17 civs. We will need fishing first so that means even less likely to get one in the beginning. With our philosophical trait perhaps we could get one later. Definitely capitol will be a GP farm.

    namliaM suggested in getting Great Lighthouse and I agree with this type of map. Perhaps early tech path should be fishing, sailing, masonry
    We will need a production city so north of capitol is ideal for that but we should try to have coastal cities as much as possible.
    Although Peter can build cheap workers he won't have anything to do here until we get some worker techs. We do have mining so getting a second city with some hills would give him something to do but again if forested definitely will need BW. Rather than considering archery so early (warriors will do for a while) after masonry go for BW. That would allow us to do some chopping.

    As to victory conditions diplomatic sounds ideal since it is the fastest but with 17 civs also tricky. We have seven religions so if we have seven different blocks so to speak it will be tough.
  7. dot

    dot crossing the i's

    Aug 31, 2005
    :salute: from .

    Checking in and drawing your attention to this post. I'm fine with having 4000BC being turn0.

    Your opinions, Team?
  8. dot

    dot crossing the i's

    Aug 31, 2005
    I definitely agree on settling on spot. As for the worker ... I assume (!) that our island will be "discovered" soon ... So I'm fine with whereever you wanna go.

    That would certainly be very, very helpful. I've missed it in my testgame, though. For reasons see next post.​



    If we'd have seven different blocks I'd agree ... :mischief: ... !


    ... to be continued ...

  9. dot

    dot crossing the i's

    Aug 31, 2005
    Here is the starting spot:

    I think that comes pretty close to what we'll get. Notice that I've set the tile under the fog in yet-to-become-moscow's-BFC to ice since we will not know what we'll find. Better not to count it in!

    If you want me to post the report without the spoiler please let me know.

    Spoiler The Report :
    4000 BC:
    Moscow is founded on spot.
    Oh, and yes! Go for fishing.

    First chap we meet: The little General: Napoleon: By border expansion.
    Techwise: Fishing is in now, after 8 turns. I go for Mysticism. :rolleyes:

    3610 BC:
    Buddhism has been FIADL.

    3460 BC:
    Here comes Mysticism. I go for Poly.

    3250 BC:
    Ah, our first workboat. Went for one the very turn I've researched fishing. I micromanage Moscow to cut a turn off of Poly.

    3160 BC:
    Next chap we meet: The Backstabber: Alex.

    3040 BC:
    Here comes Polytheism. I go for Masonry. Polytheism, huh?

    The sudden sprawl of faith has urged life to prosper ... or so it is said. And that forest will be important!

    2770 BC:
    Do you want to know how to build a great wall, Sir? We've researched Masonry. I go for ... Mono.

    2740 BC:
    Second workboat is ready.

    2710 BC:
    Moscow's boarders are about to expand (pop #3!).
    I cut two turns off of Mono by MM.

    2470 BC:
    The wealthiest Civs of the world (according to Pliny):
    1. Alex
    2. thru 8. Unknown.

    2380 BC:
    Monotheism, and yes, Judaism. I go for BW.

    2290 BC:
    After two turns of anarchy we have OR and Judaism. Moscow can grow to size 6. Growth to size 5 is due in 4.

    2020 BC:
    Clam to Alex for Crab.

    1900 BC:
    BW is in. So late? Yes. I revolt to Slavery and go for Sailing.

    1660 BC:
    Hello Asoka!

    1630 BC:
    Hello Biz!

    1570 BC:
    No Asoka, we won't stop trading with the Greeks. (In a low whispered voice: "A$$hole")

    1540 BC:
    Judaism has spread in Sparta.

    1510 BC:
    Sailing >> Wheel.
    Hi Lizzy.
    Alex converts to Judaism.

    1450 BC:
    Oops, I forgot to mention:

    I go for a settler.

    1390 BC:
    Lizzy gets OB with us. She might have Writing, hum?

    1270 BC:
    Wheel >> Priesthood.

    1180 BC:
    Asoka and us have OB.

    1090 BC:
    Priesthood >> Writing.
    Moscow: Settler >> Oracle.

    1030 BC:
    Napoleon converts to Hinduism.
    St Petersburg is settled and starts a lighthouse.

    1000 BC:
    Alex and us have OB.

    985 BC:
    We are not amongst the 8 largest civs of the world. :(
    Judaism has spread in Orleans.

    910 BC:
    Alex converts to Hinduism and cancels the Clam-Crab-Deal.
    Moscow has it's 4th (in words: Fourth!) border expansion.
    Napoleon has completed the Great Wall.

    Spoiler A Big Fat Smoke :
    910 - 670 BC:
    A whole lot of stuff happend in these years. But In 670 BC I missed out on the Oracle by six turns. And when I figured that it was due to horrible MM in Moscow I decided to reload an autosave.

    880 BC: (the reload from autosave)
    First thing to do: MM Moscow from 24 turn until Oracle to 15 without any loss. Stupid.

    835 BC:
    Writing >> Theology. (A really stupid :smoke: here.)

    820 BC:
    Hinduism has spread in St. Petersburg. Nice.
    So I convert to Hinduism ... And meet Cyrus by LoS. Nice, again. :)

    790 BC:
    St Petersburg's first border expansion.

    775 BC:
    Hinduism has spread in London.

    760 BC:
    And eventually Lizzy converts.
    Oracle due in 8.

    745 BC:
    MM Moscow to reduce the "ETA" of the Oracle from 7 to 6.

    715 BC:
    And Clam for Crab again, Mr Backstabber.
    Oh, Hi Toku. Yes, Peace there shall be.

    685 BC:
    St Petersburg: Lighthouse >> GLh.
    Moscow: Hurry the Oracle for one Pop.

    670 BC:
    OB with Bizzy.
    CoL for free. We've entered the Classical Era.
    Moscow: Oracle >> Galley
    Confucianism has been founded in St. Petersburg.

    St. John has been born in Moscow. Wait - St. John? What did he believe in? Hum ... He'd research Meditation? Oh, dot! Stupid! --> Switch research from Theology to Meditation!!!

    655 BC:
    Hey, Jules! Yep, let there be Peace.
    The confused missionary fails to spread his faith @ Moscow.

    640 BC:
    OB with Jules, Naples (oops, Napoleon, I mean, ;)), Cyrus and HC. HC? Yep we've met him back in 700 BC. Sorry folks. Forgot to meniton.

    610 BC:
    Jules believes in Jahwe. So he says.

    580 BC:
    Hinduism has spread in Frankfurt, right after Biz converted to Judaism. Bad Luck.

    550 BC:
    Mediation is in. OK, John, go and baptize!

    And so is Theology. We've entered the Medieval Era ... @ 550 BC.

    And here comes Religion #4. Christanity has been founded in St. Petersburg.
    Techwise I head for Pottery.

    535 BC:
    Christianity has spread in Moscow.
    Hinduism has spread in Tiwanaku.

    520 BC:
    HC converts, eventually.

    505 BC:
    Hinduism has spread in Arbela.
    GLh due in 35 after some MM.

    445 BC:
    Pottery >> Archery.

    430 BC:
    ToA has been built IAFAL.

    415 BC:
    HG have been built IAFAL.

    370 BC:
    Archery >> AH.
    Hinduism has spread in Cuzco.

    355 BC:
    Hinduism has spread in Canterbury.

    340 BC:
    Bismarck converts to Hinduism.

    325 BC:
    Jules cancels OB due to us not being judaic - I assume.
    And I start chopping a forest near St Petersburg to help with the GLh.

    295 BC:
    Hey Asoka, we've been thru this before: We won't stop trading with the Greek. Especially not with our Galley in their territory. :nope:

    265 BC:
    Hinduism has spread in Knossos.

    250 BC:
    Another forest has grown near Moscow.

    235 BC:
    We are not amongst the 8 wealthiest civs in the world. Not yet! ;)

    205 BC:
    GLh has been built IAFAL.

    And that's where I stopped. ... to be continued ...
  10. dot

    dot crossing the i's

    Aug 31, 2005
    I find your lack of faith disturbing! ;)

    Spoiler aftermaths :
    Well, I agree. Getting religions with 18 civs on Monarch is really tight. But possible:

    5 religions founded.
    4 are russian.
    2 cities could hold two shrines each.
    Now it'd definitely be all about settling and building.
    But if you have a look at the percentage of hinduism ... :eek:
    Methinx we'd be well in the race for diplo so far. And that's reflected by the diplo screen:

    -3 ... in total! (Admittedly so far. We'd still have to meet eight other civs. :()

    Well, Diplo via religion might be possible. And with two religios wonders Great Prophets and thereby shrines (for a lot of commerce!) and/or DR (and maybe Islam) are possible. So what do you guys think about this? Where would you like to go? Or rather: What would you like to aim for?

    Kind regards, .
  11. Cosmichail

    Cosmichail Dark Lord of The Sith

    Apr 26, 2006
    I'm good too with turn 0 = 4000BC.....

    Dot I take it you think we should try for early religion??

    namliaM's statement about backdoor diplomatic win is probably the best option so lots of warring. I do really, really like Russian UB but it's kind of late in the game unfortunately.

    Looking forward to your comments Dot and of course any one else from the team.
  12. namliaM

    namliaM Chieftain

    Apr 4, 2005
    Offcourse this capitol means whip again... Tho we wont have the advantage/ability of the "whip bug"... i.e. the SGOTM2 whipping issue(s)

    To use the whip effectively preferably we whip at a point where after the whip we immediatly regrow a pop.
    i.e. this means at size 5 we want to whip with the foodbar at 24/30 or better with +2 food at size 3. This means that after one turn at size 3 we will go to 26/26 and grow to 4.
    This most probably can be timed better as we want to whip just below pop limit and be at pop limit for as long as possible.

    Also pre-this thread, we assumed this to be a builder game and it can be... I think. Post liberalism most AI should switch to free religion right? Therefor any negatives from religion should be null and void by the time we get to Radio (right?) for the UN.
    My big problem with "real" diplo is keeping everyone happy (enough) we are sure to get demands/requests for tech/war.
    By declaring war on 1 AI we are sure to "upset" one or more others. Also the constant giving in to requests to keep AI happy will force us to give things we may not want to give.
    We need to deside just about on turn 0 ;) what our goal will be.
    1) True diplo
    - Get friends and many, make a common enemy... Preferably our (future) oponent in the UN... which will be hard to pick this early
    2) Backdoor Diplo
    - War war and more war, get a mayority in the UN ourselves
    3) Space
    - Need quite some productive cities which is hard to do in Archipelago maps.

    Each have its own problem(s) ...
    1) make sure we get lots of positive modifiers, while avoiding negatives where we can
    2) War means slower tech = later UN = to late UN to go for the laurels?
    3) Production + loads of tech needed more than diplo = Laurels?

    @Dot, I dont like the idea for you to edit those posts. This could lead to misunderstandings/misconceptions and/or people not reading your post(s). due to they are not marked as "new"...

    I think I like the idea of 1 workboat first, maybe followed by a settler or a worker. We will have the food... which is nice... Also building a quite expensive early wonder I think we need a second base to
    a) keep expanding
    b) actually build it if it is a better site than our capitol.

    Our capitol will not benifit from any worker techs I think. The biggest benifits are:
    1) Workboats (Fishing)
    2) Lighthouse (Sailing)
    3) Granary + Cottages (Pottery)
    4) Chopping (BW)

    So I think we need to prioritize these techs early on... No need to pick up Agriculture or AH ASAP.

    This capitol will have NO production what so ever unless:
    - copper or Iron pops up like in the test game, which IMHO is unlikely
    - we keep those forrests

    So we need to think about and put the chops to good use and whip hard sometimes to get things build.

    One thing I found "disturbing" in Warlords and in the test game in particular was/is the very slow autospread of the Religions.

    More random thoughts to follow I expect....
  13. Cosmichail

    Cosmichail Dark Lord of The Sith

    Apr 26, 2006
    @namliaM - You make very good points and I concur on all of them. No need to extrapolate just that you put some thought into this and are providing the team with sound advice.

    Yes lots of whipping happening here. Again you have provided us with the best whipping techniques and shall follow them to the T. Second city should be coastal of course but also have the ability to provide ample production.

    Build path sounds good with workboat, settler although at some point we should have garrison of some sort. We might think about a warrior or two as definitely will need one to accompany settler. Now if we go for a galley soon then he could be shuttled to a safe coastal spot. Still will need an escort though. If this were SP I might risk it without but we can't afford to loose our first settler.

    I like the techpath good approach and getting granary early is great for whipping. I appreciate how you explain the foodbar and would appreciate you explaining again how the overflow works in warlords. I understand 1 pop is worth 45 hammers and is multiplyed by such things as forge/engineer. I went looking thru our last SGOTM but of course that doesn't apply so your expert advice on this is most appreciated and a great guide for the team.

    I have noticed this too so what's with that. We should be alright without one for a while but it would be nice to deal with happiness/culture. Shall we also consider writing soon after that tech path but don't forget if we want Lighthouse we will need Masonry. We need to time the Masonry research in tune with second city is ready to build it. I take it whipping doesn't work on wonders except as usual with the overflow only?

    Ok where's the rest of the team so far we have:
    Greyfox, namliaM, Bobrath (fears the first turn bet ya namliaM will take the lead) and Dot who has received an appropiate comment from namliaM re the spam. I was thinking it but going to be a good boy this time around.

    We are still needing to hear from Robo Kai, Scowler, and Furrie.

    We have a 8 member roster but I suspect Furrie will be OOP a lot since he has been unable to play in SG's for a while.

    So here's suggested begin roster:

    namliaM (GMT+1)
    Bobrath (GMT -5) I think
    Greyfox (GMT +8)
    Robo Kai (GMT +8)
    Furrie (GMT +1)
    Cosmichail (GMT -5)
    Dot (GMT +1)
    Scowler (GMT)

    Ok we can change this but I was thinking Dec. 1st being close to the weekend is better for namliaM and I think considering SGOTM02 set us up nicely. Dot and Furrie are opposites as to when they can play. Bobrath/Greyfox tend to play fast so that would put us in the week of Dec. 4th which is better for Furrie and I don't think its matter to Robo. I prefer during the week more so and the next weekend would line up for Dot hopefully or close to it and Scowler I think is flexible.

    One more thing let's keep the posts short enough to keep our attention span. I am telling myself this as being a 90-100wpm typist I tend to ramble on. So this is just to remind myself. One last point l would rather see us stop for a while for discussion rather than rush the turns. After reading CFR from start to finish these guys discussed a lot before playing so team participation is mandatory or else. (you get sent to Siberia)
  14. dot

    dot crossing the i's

    Aug 31, 2005
    Posts #9 and #10 in this thread are now edited and filled! ;)

    I agree namliaM. But I think posting that I have edited them hence not ripping the report apart but providing a new post would do the trick. Wouldn't it?

    Regards, .
  15. dot

    dot crossing the i's

    Aug 31, 2005
  16. namliaM

    namliaM Chieftain

    Apr 4, 2005
    Personaly I dont thing the Religious route is the way to go... To many Myst starting civs out there to start picking up religions I think.
  17. Scowler

    Scowler Mr. Understatement

    Mar 12, 2004
    Signing in.

    I don't have much to say at this point (and will probably also be fairly busy over the next couple of days), but so far I think namliaM is presenting a good assessment of possible ways forward.
  18. GreyFox

    GreyFox Make it so ...

    Dec 28, 2005
    Where No One Has Gone Before
    Just a note, although I have yet to put it in my signature: I am flying to Japan for a week starting 3rd Dec ... but as usual, I don't foresee any problem with me accessing the CFC and playing my turns at night in the hotel ...

    Actually, dot presented a very good scenario of grabbing religions ... I disagree with anyone saying religions is hard to get with 18 civs ... its actually fairly easy if you set your mind to it. Religious still the key to diplomatic relations like it or not.

    Hmm... yeah, I noticed recently the bubbles seems to be pointing the "wrong way" ... hmm ... why fix something that is not broken? Just by looking at the sun ancient civ would have known where along the latitude they are situated . The so-called fix is definitely counter-reality.

    Not really ... AI are algorithms, they excel in calculations. So, they would calculate the benefits of going free religion against a state religion. They choose the former only if there are a lot of different religions spread across its empire.

    Re starting position, starting tech and all that, I would really suggest we re-evaluate after making the first scout move. Thus I propose that the first player move that scout, post a screenshot and wait a day or 2 for discussions.

  19. Cosmichail

    Cosmichail Dark Lord of The Sith

    Apr 26, 2006
    I am for trying for religion and dot's test did show it was doable. The only difference (devil's advocate) is that sometimes you pick poly and 90% of the time AI chooses meditation. However (oh here we go) there is a chance the AI or one of them chooses poly. Now if that did happen then we would need to go to monotheism and again divert from other techs that might be needed.

    Since in SGOTM a move is permanent and will effect the remainder of the game one has to consider this carefully. I want to thank Dot for the demonstration and very much appreciate it. What concerns me too with wonders is that it takes away from necessary settling. Oracle would have more of a priorty over stonehenge. Of course if we are in a similiar setup as practice GOTM settling might not be such a priorty as much as pangea/or continents.

    Another observation about religious/wonder based societies. They tend to be weak military as if you do have a shrine missionaries will be needed to get those civs to our religion. Again if you found like three religions you choose let's say Judaism, the other AI's pick up your other religion like Hindu/or Confucianism/or christianity. What happens a lot to me the AI with buddhism gets everybody to buddhist. I hate having to build missionaries (find it a waste of hammers) and the need to sometimes to send missionaries several times to the same city.

    That's my thoughts on it and think it wouldn't hurt to get at least one or even two for the culture balloon. But the warmonger in me says the backdoor may be best since there are so many civs. Find a strong partner get them to our religion and attack a nearby AI for land grab. Monarch warlords does not allow that as easily anymore so that too needs a lot of consideration.

    I agree with Greyfox and moving the scout and then again discussing it. We have lots of time to make sure we do it right and with team consensus. Don't get me wrong I am not saying an individual player is doing anything wrong but discussions tend to open up other avenues of thought one person might not think of. Ergo a team can accomplish more than a single player although sometimes one needs to weed through a lot of reading.

    We have to consider too that AI settles a lot faster now and grows huge cities early. I noticed that they keep their cities happy with HR and lots of MP's.
  20. dot

    dot crossing the i's

    Aug 31, 2005
    Hinduism - Judaism

    Before I've set up this test game I've played a couple of turns on different warlords/monarch/archipelago/18civs games. Usually the first religion I've been able to found was Judaism. So I think that I've been quite lucky with grabbing Hinduism. And I've played the same save once before without picking up fishing but going straight for mysticism >> polytheism >> masonry >> monotheism ... And I've only got Judaism. Fishing did the trick commerce-wise, I think!

    Stonehenge - Great Lighthouse - Settling

    Yes, definitely! In my test game I wanted to check whether SH would be possible. For the SGOTM I'd drop it though. For being able to have an earlier settler and so to have a higher possibilty for getting the GLh - which is a Must on the archipelago map.
    And yes ... in Warlords (with the patch) the AI settle really fast. So I agree that going for both religious wonders is a :nono:. Even if that means postponing Theology. If you look at my maps I'm pretty much cramped in by 205 BC. .

    Religion & Diplomacy

    As I've posted earlier and elsewhere I've been playing 18civ-maps before. And even though I haven't finished the games yet I've made some observations about AI and religion (even though on Vanilla!).

    1. In most cases the AI are still in some state religion when DP's come in. Guess who will form one with you. Heathens or brothers and sisters of the faith?
    2. PA is enabled. And is 'really' enabled by either a long enough period of military cooperation or DP. So that might help to contribute to an earlier victory. Thoughts, folks?
    3. Yes @ GreyFox. If we manage to spread one religion really widely the AI tends to stay in a state religion longer. I've found that, too. But Cosmic is right, too. That would mean that one of our cities has to be more or less only a missionary producer. But here again ...
    4. (50 Hindu cities + the shrine + market + grocer + bank + wall street) = 150 :gold:pt. How many percent does that make? Techslider-wise, I mean?
    5. Getting as many religions as possible would be crucial if we'd go the religious route. I see no other way to actively prevent seven blocks diplo-wise from the start. And yes, we leave out a whole bunch of other important techs. But what about the trade value of CoL and Theology?
    Military weakness

    And Yes, Cosmic, religious/wonders games really tend to be weak on military ... But even under the patch the AI quite sucks at naval warfare! And with Theocracy we'd be able to produce a couple free-combat1-triremes. :mischief:

    Backdoor Diplo

    Three versions I have to offer:

    1. Early landgrab:
      Spread i.e. Hinduism widely. Spare out one or two weak nearby civilizations that might only have one hindu city. While assembling a decent army spread one of your other religions to them widely. To quote GreyFox: "AI are algorithms, they excel in calculations." When they convert wait a few turns for your brothers and sisters of the faith to get quite annoyed with them ... and then - :devil: - bribe them into war, join in willingly (for the maybe-diplo-plus) and grab some land! :p
    2. Late landgrab:
      If we'd have enough room to settle war will come anyway sooner or later by some of Izzy's peacefully meditating buddhist nations, wouldn't it? And that would allow us to reduce the number of man that could possibly vote against us in the UN.
    3. Landgrab:
      Combine 1. and 2. And really ... settle rather early ourselves since 'no city razing' is enabled!
    Wow, what a complex matter! :crazyeye: Curiously waiting for your responses!

    With regards from Germany, .

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