SGOTM 04 - Geezers
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Htadus
A and L's dad
I have been experimenting with Celt WOTM3, and found out the power of BW to make a beliver out of me. Food is not a big issue on this setting. So AH is more valuble to locate horses. With all the food around we can hold off on Pot also.
I would prefer to settle where we are and use the forseted PH north for a chop and mine. 30/45 shields goes a long way in the early game. The 2 shields will be handy to build the Warrior or WB or what ever else. And the chops will be handy to get the settlers out fast.
I have been testing chopping for settlers and building worrior in between. Pretty cool. From what I read it is not an exploit.
BTW on that WOTM3, I was able to get MC from the Oracle, with Ragnar it should be even easier. So we should not ignore it. For all we know we can do even better w/Ragnar. Also I noted that AI like to get Long bows with Oracle. Nasty buisness.
Htadus
A and L's dad
I need to leave the house, but when I get back, I am willing do a test map with the known setting to see what would optimize our science for the first 100 turns. Let me know if you would like to do some thing like this. Out for 7 hrs.
Htadus
A and L's dad
Oh...forgot. It appear the south circle is at a choke point.
The-Hawk
Old Original Geezer
Wow 
... I check this thread last night, 24 hours later, three pages of postings! Outstanding!
Some random thoughts:
I agree that moving the settler might be a good idea... this will be a long game. Losing a few turns in the beginning will be a good investment if we find a better location. Said another way... 497 turns of an outstanding capital is better than 500 of a good capital.
If that is jungle to the south of the SW hill, then it may be better to move the scout NW, W. Maybe there is a better chance to find something good to the west? Or, maybe move the scout to the SW proposed site and move the settler SW, NW?
I think I can
. If moving south or west turned up a commerce tile (gold or gems) plus a food tile, I probably would move. Early commerce tiles are an outstanding way to get off to a fast tech start.
For me, it depends on our strategy overall, and therefore our strategy for the capital. It's pretty clear we will need to be a science powerhouse. In this event, I typically like my capital to be high commerce so I can utilize bureacracy. Ragnar's financial trait says "cottages", but the start location has lots of wasted tiles (ocean). I'd prefer the capital on a site with more opportunity to build cottages.
The initial start location looks like it could be an excellent GP factory. I would think it would be a great candidate for a second or third city.
Bottom line... it all depends on what the scout turns up. If there are no goodies under the FOW, then settling in place might be the best bet. However, I would even consider settling 1 west if there are grasslands to the west of the pork. The clams could be fished by a workboat from a later city.
If the decision is to settle in place, I think bronzeworking is a priority... might as well get some whipping action going with all that food. With standard size fractal and 7 opponents, it might get crowded quickly... might want to whip a settler or two. Also, if there are some cranky neighbors nearby, some axes might come in handy.
... I check this thread last night, 24 hours later, three pages of postings! Outstanding!Some random thoughts:
Thrallia said:
I agree that moving the settler might be a good idea... this will be a long game. Losing a few turns in the beginning will be a good investment if we find a better location. Said another way... 497 turns of an outstanding capital is better than 500 of a good capital.
markh said:
If that is jungle to the south of the SW hill, then it may be better to move the scout NW, W. Maybe there is a better chance to find something good to the west? Or, maybe move the scout to the SW proposed site and move the settler SW, NW?
Jenarie said:
I think I can
. If moving south or west turned up a commerce tile (gold or gems) plus a food tile, I probably would move. Early commerce tiles are an outstanding way to get off to a fast tech start.For me, it depends on our strategy overall, and therefore our strategy for the capital. It's pretty clear we will need to be a science powerhouse. In this event, I typically like my capital to be high commerce so I can utilize bureacracy. Ragnar's financial trait says "cottages", but the start location has lots of wasted tiles (ocean). I'd prefer the capital on a site with more opportunity to build cottages.
The initial start location looks like it could be an excellent GP factory. I would think it would be a great candidate for a second or third city.
Bottom line... it all depends on what the scout turns up. If there are no goodies under the FOW, then settling in place might be the best bet. However, I would even consider settling 1 west if there are grasslands to the west of the pork. The clams could be fished by a workboat from a later city.
Sam_Yeager said:
If the decision is to settle in place, I think bronzeworking is a priority... might as well get some whipping action going with all that food. With standard size fractal and 7 opponents, it might get crowded quickly... might want to whip a settler or two. Also, if there are some cranky neighbors nearby, some axes might come in handy.
Sam, what would cause you to be against checking 2N? we don't lose anything of value except the forests, and we gain some minable hills for sure...possibly another resource and more forests.
Hills along with 3 food resources, and forested hills on top of that, will lead to some sort of outstanding capital short and long term
As for techs, I believe Mining>BW should be our first path as well, as with all that food we'll need some way of using up the excess pop growth.
However, I think a workboat first is best. We've already got fishing, so we might as well use it. Workboat first, then warrior, perhaps early worker if we've gotten AH or Agri already and to try that warrior/settler chop thing that Htadus mentioned...although I'm not sure if that works on Warlords...I've noticed that hammers gained from chopping seem to be added to the city's production, rather than immediately being used on whatever is being built.
Another thought is to hold on to all these forests to get Pyramids and/or Library or some other wonder we decide we need.
Hills along with 3 food resources, and forested hills on top of that, will lead to some sort of outstanding capital short and long term
As for techs, I believe Mining>BW should be our first path as well, as with all that food we'll need some way of using up the excess pop growth.
However, I think a workboat first is best. We've already got fishing, so we might as well use it. Workboat first, then warrior, perhaps early worker if we've gotten AH or Agri already and to try that warrior/settler chop thing that Htadus mentioned...although I'm not sure if that works on Warlords...I've noticed that hammers gained from chopping seem to be added to the city's production, rather than immediately being used on whatever is being built.
Another thought is to hold on to all these forests to get Pyramids and/or Library or some other wonder we decide we need.
Htadus
A and L's dad
I generated a few maps and edited one with the basic layout to look like what is shown on the map. It is attached in the bottom for anyone to look or use.
Ran 3 tests, each without pop rushing and revolting immidiately to Slavery. Techs: Mining, BW, Agri(should have been AH), Archery and started Masonry. I mined the forested plains hill for all tests.
1. Warrior, WB, worker and settler
Sum: Completed BW on turn 32, worker on 37 and settler on 52, and started Masonry on 52.
2. WB, Warrior, worker and settler
Sum: Completed BW on turn 30, worker on 36 and settler on 50, and started Masonry on 51.
3. WB working the GF, Warrior, worker and settler
Sum: Completed BW on turn 29, worker on 36 and settler on 50, and started Masonry on 50.
Ran 3 tests, each without pop rushing and revolting immidiately to Slavery. Techs: Mining, BW, Agri(should have been AH), Archery and started Masonry. I mined the forested plains hill for all tests.
1. Warrior, WB, worker and settler
Sum: Completed BW on turn 32, worker on 37 and settler on 52, and started Masonry on 52.
Spoiler :
2. WB, Warrior, worker and settler
Sum: Completed BW on turn 30, worker on 36 and settler on 50, and started Masonry on 51.
Spoiler :
3. WB working the GF, Warrior, worker and settler
Sum: Completed BW on turn 29, worker on 36 and settler on 50, and started Masonry on 50.
Spoiler :
Htadus
A and L's dad
I too prefer the current spot for one thing. It will be an excellent GP farm. Even the lake will give us 3 each commerce and food with a lighthouse. If we learn AH instead of Agriculture, the pigs will give 6 food and that will speed up the growth faster and show if the horses are around.
Htadus
A and L's dad
There is a discussion on vassel states on the maintanance thread. Since I could not figur out how to make a link to the threads here goes cut and paste.
On post #6 Gyathaar states
On post#33 AlanH states
In other words lets make sure that Gandhi will not become or have vassel states since this will require us to be in wars with more than one civ. Which inturn leads to slow science. We will really need to evaluate how close we want to be to Gandhi as the game progress.
On post #6 Gyathaar states
On post#33 AlanH states
In other words lets make sure that Gandhi will not become or have vassel states since this will require us to be in wars with more than one civ. Which inturn leads to slow science. We will really need to evaluate how close we want to be to Gandhi as the game progress.
Sam_Yeager
Another Original Geezer
It seems to me that I can see the outline of additional hills beyond those I can see. Our current site, shown below, gives us nice mixture of food, early commerce, hammers and forests. We start with 2 hammers, the corn is right next to us, we have the lake with two food and two commerce (2f2c) as well as the clams.
Blue lines show our initial city area with the red lines showing our big fat cross (BFC). Whilst the additional hills help production they don't do much for growth. Moving to the north blue circle & settling will cost two turns. If we move back then that's three turns before we can settle and start research. I know we did that in the last SGOTM but that was due to lack of
for our capital. We don't have that problem this time.
Sam_Yeager
Another Original Geezer
Will Harbourboy be back for his initial turn? IIRC he was due to be back 4 March (?).
OTOH given that we like discussion
a day or so is not that big a deal.at this rate, I'm not sure that it will be a problem with him 3rd 
especially since we'll likely have a ton of discussion going on anyway.
From Htadus' tests, it appears workboat first is best, and that getting the workboat finished ASAP is even better.
For the first turn exploring, I'll follow the team vote, but I still think that with the possibility of getting an even better capital at the greatest risk of settling on turn 3 rather than turn 1(only actually costing us 2 turns) is worht taking. Considering it is a Gyathaar map, I almost expect the lushness of the current spot to be a trap to keep us from moving from a good spot to a great spot 1 turn away.
especially since we'll likely have a ton of discussion going on anyway.From Htadus' tests, it appears workboat first is best, and that getting the workboat finished ASAP is even better.
For the first turn exploring, I'll follow the team vote, but I still think that with the possibility of getting an even better capital at the greatest risk of settling on turn 3 rather than turn 1(only actually costing us 2 turns) is worht taking. Considering it is a Gyathaar map, I almost expect the lushness of the current spot to be a trap to keep us from moving from a good spot to a great spot 1 turn away.
I've moved the scout and took screenshots...there's gems and silk down there, both in reach of a coastal city placed 1W of the scout.
That leads me to believe that'd be a good city site, so I definitely believe moving the capital to the northern hill would open up that site as a good second city.
I've saved the game again, but since it is still 4000BC, I can't reupload it...the screenshot are all we'll have to go on as a group.
That leads me to believe that'd be a good city site, so I definitely believe moving the capital to the northern hill would open up that site as a good second city.
I've saved the game again, but since it is still 4000BC, I can't reupload it...the screenshot are all we'll have to go on as a group.
Attachments
Htadus
A and L's dad
Okay. Not bad for Gyathaar build so far. But I am not too fond of building a tile away from accessing coast regardless of what the blue circle says. I prefer to move inland for more cottages.
The current position will give us raw production of [4+4+3+2(cap)] 13 shields without the use of forest.
North spot will give us raw production of [4+4+4+3+3+2(cap)] 20 shilds again without the use of forest. Yes I am assuming those two hidden tiles are hills and one is G and other is P. So from a production stand North would be an excellent location but GP farm is more important than a production city in the early-mid game.
But I have nothing against loosing 2 turns for better intel.
The current position will give us raw production of [4+4+3+2(cap)] 13 shields without the use of forest.
North spot will give us raw production of [4+4+4+3+3+2(cap)] 20 shilds again without the use of forest. Yes I am assuming those two hidden tiles are hills and one is G and other is P. So from a production stand North would be an excellent location but GP farm is more important than a production city in the early-mid game.
But I have nothing against loosing 2 turns for better intel.
I agree the current spot would be better for a GP farm, but I'm not sure we'd want our capital to be a GP farm...moving 2N would give us great production, fairly good commerce, and thus a great candidate for Bureaucracy.(note that the other proposed site would also be a plains hill, giving us 2 hammers automatically still)
As for the southern city, I meant settling on the coast just above the gems...it'd give us another coastal city along with silk and gems, two luxury and commercial resources that could give us a good commerce city.
As for the southern city, I meant settling on the coast just above the gems...it'd give us another coastal city along with silk and gems, two luxury and commercial resources that could give us a good commerce city.
Sam_Yeager
Another Original Geezer
I'm not totally convinced but I agree it's probably worth moving the settler 2N to see what's there. Please post another screen shot so we can see what's actually there.hm...well, after being the largest proponent of looking north, I'm not sure if I like the new position or not...so I'll leave it to everyone else to decide lol
I uploaded the new save, unfortunately, I wasn't able to take a screenshot before I had to close out and leave to run some errands.
I uploaded the new save, unfortunately, I wasn't able to take a screenshot before I had to close out and leave to run some errands.
