SGOTM 04 - Murky Waters

[LowtherCastle]

The drop comes from city maintenance too. It may be better to switch to FR?

This is my thinking, for what it's worth.

• Switching religions only costs 1 turn.
• Switching to FR/State Property now is 3 turns, but instantly generates more and afterwards.
• We having Buddhism won't hurt G.
• In Buddhism, we can still use OrgRel for now.
• Later, (when we have massive WW again) we switch to Pacifism/State Property and the Buddhist in NH doubles the GPP rate.
• The sooner we go to war with M, the sooner he might trade with G.

Here's the math on Pacifism vs. FR:

• 3GD = 2625 * 9/ = 23,625 bucks
• SE = 1500 * 9/ = 13,500 bucks
• -33% w/Kremlin and not Fiber Optics.

Pacifism for 80turns (to make 2 GEs) = -10% = ~116/turn = ~9000 lost because not running FR. Note that in roughly 80t we'll still pop 1 GE w/o Pacifism.

I forget how many we get from 1 GE, (BP knows). But I think it's roughly 1000, which means 9000 bucks, which takes us 8t right now, so it looks like FR may actually be better, since we don't have the mil unti cost.

Bottom line: Do we want to burn 3 turns right now and go to war with M in about 6 turns or go to war with M in about 4 turns and switch civics when we have major WW (in about 10turns)?

 

[LowtherCastle]

Some notes on Warring:

• M will accept Toledo and Gaz. I vote for Gaz if we want to take ALL his other cities (which I also vote for).
• Gaz needs a Jew Miss FIRST. That way, when it's his only city, he might adopt Judaism as his state religion, especially since he'll hate us more than G.
• Gift Isabella Horse Island before DoWing her.
• KEEP STONE ISLAND because it's our only stone and it's important to protect G from H later on.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Gifting G our cities
I think our major priorities are:

1. Karak
2. Besh
3. MC

Why?

We can always gift Turfan and CF to Isabella, for example. For G, they just mean more WW with not much in return. BUt we want to gift Isa Horse Island AND take Murcia and other new city FIRST, so her capital goes to Horse island. THen Turfan and CF wouldn't culture-creep G so much.

 

[Erkon]

Dow isa or me first? Gaz to me will tie up our units. Have not seen save yet.

 

[Erkon]

We cannot gift city to M until peace, and the treaty delay is bad. If we dow isa, there is a risk that M backstab her and vassal her again.
So, we need to dop M, then gift a city in ten turns, then dow. Or gift city after we take most of M core cities. ?

 

[Gnejs]

United Nations is disabled.

LMAO!!!!!



This just proves that we are all idiots!

Never in the history of Civ have so few had so many plans that went soooo wrong!

 

[LowtherCastle]

We cannot gift city to M until peace, and the treaty delay is bad. If we dow isa, there is a risk that M backstab her and vassal her again.
So, we need to dop M, then gift a city in ten turns, then dow. Or gift city after we take most of M core cities. ?

The idea is to pre-gift an appropriate city (e.g. Gaz), so we can then take all of the AI's other existing cities. We gift the city and then DoW on the same turn. This is the only way I know of if we want all of M's current cities without 2 DoWs.

M wouldn't have any units in Gaz when we gifted it, so it would not be a threat of any kind.

I was thinking we'd leave Brennus as is and do both Isa and M at the same time, but I suppose we could do M first, then Isa.

 

[LowtherCastle]

This just proves that we are all idiots!

I take exception to that. I'm still the Official Idiot.

Go find yourself another label.

Like dolt.

Or dunderpate.

Btw, I think we're still in teh running for the wooden spoon. All we have to do is get G to space.

 

[JERFit]

Guys, I think that if we start now we'll still have a chance at fastest conquest victory. Just a thought,

 

[Big Pig]

'Got it'
Great work from JERFit and LC

I'll try to start my turns later tonight once I have assimilated the last few pages of suggestions

 

[Gnejs]

'Got it'
Great work from JERFit and LC

I'll try to start my turns later tonight once I have assimilated the last few pages of suggestions

That means I will have to have a look at the save quite soon then? Ok, give me an hour or two, and I will have posted my comments too.

 

[Erkon]

Ok, after looking at the save I've got the following advice:

Build culture in Istanbul
Research Artillery
Settle city N of Ning Hsia that we can gift

I'm a little worried of gifting CF since Gandhi may attack and wipe out one AI. And with Stone Island, there is a risk that H. will run crazy. Perhaps we shall let Isa keep Valencia?

I also think Toledo is good to gift to M. although we risk that the city will switch due to the cultural pressure from Barcelona? Does anyone know if the city tile will keep the cultural history if the city is gifted?

 

[Big Pig]

Ok, after looking at the save I've got the following advice:

Build culture in Istanbul Sounds good - I will go culture until it gets its fat cross
Research Artillery I plan to research RR>?Combustion. With RR I can use workers (under heavy guard) to start RRing G's mines (and our own). Combustion I am less sure about - it gives us a strong navy and allows us to beeline Plastics - which means we can 'gift' the 3GD to G as soon as we have lots of cash or a GE (and quite a lot of cash). I know artillery makes a prereq for Rocketry cheaper - but the Space Race is decided by who can build the last few parts the quickest, not by who builds the Apollo program quickest
Settle city N of Ning Hsia that we can gift Not keen on this - it will cause potential culture creep on NH

I'm a little worried of gifting CF since Gandhi may attack and wipe out one AI. Unlikely tho' - G is not prone to random attacksAnd with Stone Island, there is a risk that H. will run crazy. Perhaps we shall let Isa keep Valencia?

I also think Toledo is good to gift to M. although we risk that the city will switch due to the cultural pressure from Barcelona? Does anyone know if the city tile will keep the cultural history if the city is gifted? It may revolt but it will not flip. I don't think we have that much culture in Barca tho'.... Toledo is a good choice to give to M as it will have no base M culture. I will aim to put a Jewish miss there first

Is the consensus on civics/religion to:
1. Revolt to Buddhism on turn 0
2. Revolt to FR and SP once we have serious WW again (and once we have spammed a few Jewish misses to NH etc?

If we plan to part buy the 3GD and SE for Gandhi, then we need to be certain of getting the Kremlin to cut down on costs. It is only 11 turns in NH - but of course it risks polluting the engineer gene pool

 

[Big Pig]

Guys, we have to think more like Gandhi... We spammed all those HIndu Misses into his future cities and now they're unhappy because G is fighting with Brethren, among other reasons. Hello?

EMERGENCY!! I think G just sent us a hand-written request to switch religions to Buddhism asap (as in TURN ZERO, BP!)

Actually, I'm not sure this is such a big deal. The unhappiness only happens in cities of size 10-12 and above and so at most G will have +1 extra unhappy in ~4 cities. (The we long to return to the motherland unhappy will be much more a problem). The religion unhappy will disappear when we get FR, and so there is probably no point revolting to Buddhism and losing a turn. (Spamming Buddhist misses is still a good idea tho' in case we get a GProph from Bib)

 

[Gnejs]

Actually, I'm not sure this is such a big deal. The unhappiness only happens in cities of size 10-12 and above and so at most G will have +1 extra unhappy in ~4 cities. (The we long to return to the motherland unhappy will be much more a problem). The religion unhappy will disappear when we get FR, and so there is probably no point revolting to Buddhism and losing a turn. (Spamming Buddhist misses is still a good idea tho' in case we get a GProph from Bib)

Agreed. We should instead be focusing on losing cities with happy resources to Gandhi (such as MC). I don't think G has much problem with WW, the AI seldom has. But it would be nice to get some spies soon...

 

[Erkon]

I am also keen on RR-Combustion. The extra production from railroads will help us a lot, and we can do coastal invasions with troop carrying transporters without risking G. to kill them off.

The idea with Artillery is not to tech to Rocketry. It's for building ... artillery!

The distance between M. cities is so small, that we don't need coastal invasions. We can speed up the war with artillery. That's why I think Artillery is more important than RR-Combustion. But you are the Boss

Gandhi has not increased his BNP after he started to grab cities from us. At the same time his military upkeep has grown a lot. I don't think it will help him much if we switch to Buddhism.

How will FR and SP help us with WW? WW is best fought with short, intensive wars with one AI at the time, using the cultural slider to pacify the red guys.

 

[Erkon]

Switching to State Property will save us about 50-70 gpt, and the extra turn of anarchy will cost us 1500 gold. That means it will take about 20 turns to break even, not counting the lost production or the gained food. Is this really clever?

EDIT: similar with FR: it will take at least T*10 turns to get that civic to pay back.

 

[Big Pig]

How will FR and SP help us with WW? WW is best fought with short, intensive wars with one AI at the time, using the cultural slider to pacify the red guys.

They won't. FR will remove the unhapiness in GHindu cities. The reason for switching during WW is that the loss of 3 productive turns will be minimised

 

[LowtherCastle]

Toledo is much worse than Gaz by my estimation. Why? because if it's M's capital it'll quickly grow to fat cross and then connect to his Edirne culture and rapidly encroach on our Edirne fat cross. Gaz will be in the middle of us, but not encroach on anything w/o a culture bomb.

Revolting to FR and SP is not for G's WW nor for ours, it's for our economy. Only abandoning Hinduism as our state religion was for G's WW.

MC doesn't get G any Happies he doesn't already have. I don't know what G's problem is, but his economy is crashing and burning. Hard to believe it's just mil units.

Agree with everything else you guys said, in particular where you disagreed.

 

[Erkon]

They won't. FR will remove the unhapiness in GHindu cities. The reason for switching during WW is that the loss of 3 productive turns will be minimised

Ahh, clever.