SGOTM 04 - Murky Waters

LowtherCastle · May 20, 2007

Erkon said:
Switching to State Property will save us about 50-70 gpt, and the extra turn of anarchy will cost us 1500 gold. That means it will take about 20 turns to break even, not counting the lost production or the gained food. Is this really clever?

EDIT: similar with FR: it will take at least T*10 turns to get that civic to pay back.

State P also gives us a lot more food in NH. In fact, we could turn more tiles into wkshps and have way more production. BUt do we need it?

You guys make the call, I'm packing.

One thing for sure, we want to minimize G's unhappiness in any way we can. The heck with our economy and lost gold, what about G?

Let's build Kremiln somewhere. And Scotland Yard.

AND NO MORE UNITS>GNEJS AND ERKON HAVE PLENTY. HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA. >>just joshing<<

Erkon · May 20, 2007

LowtherCastle said:
Toledo is much worse than Gaz by my estimation. Why? because if it's M's capital it'll quickly grow to fat cross and then connect to his Edirne culture and rapidly encroach on our Edirne fat cross. Gaz will be in the middle of us, but not encroach on anything w/o a culture bomb.

Revolting to FR and SP is not for G's WW nor for ours, it's for our economy. Only abandoning Hinduism as our state religion was for G's WW.

MC doesn't get G any Happies he doesn't already have. I don't know what G's problem is, but his economy is crashing and burning. Hard to believe it's just mil units.

Agree with everything else you guys said, in particular where you disagreed.

OMG, I was looking at our BNP graph :wallbash:

Anyway, the power and food yield rise dramatically while the BNP drops, which indicates city maintenance + troop costs. My city-gazing may fail me, but it doesn't look like G. has many courthouses?

I buy your reasoning regarding the culture, and with that in mind, Gaz is better. Erm, did I just let LC sway my opinion that easy? That must mean Toledo is the best choice...

Almost all my civics changes in the end phase of my games have been bad. I've ~~said~~ written it before, but I'll repeat it (since Gnejs probably didn't read my posts earlier in this thread, else he would have read my comment about the UN being disabled) : changing civics must have a very big impact in the end game to be worth the delay in production IMHO.

Erkon · May 20, 2007

LowtherCastle said:
...
You guys make the call, I'm packing.
...

Have a nice trip! I promise I'll be peaceful.

Spoiler :

Gnejs · May 20, 2007

Erkon said:
Anyway, the power and food yield rise dramatically while the BNP drops, which indicates city maintenance + troop costs. My city-gazing may fail me, but it doesn't look like G. has many courthouses?

My impression also from looking at G's stats. He probably has too many troops for his own good. But no, I am not suggesting we should try to help him reduce his troop count.

Gnejs · May 20, 2007

We are under quite heavy cultural pressure from Isa. This seems costly. I would suggest gifting Nidaros and declaring war on the first turn. Maybe this is already planned for?

Isa should not tie up more than a handful of units. We have a bunch of troops in Barcelona, Toledo and Edirne. Use the Galleons in Istanbul to ferry these down to Istanbul. Once we got them all in place I believe it is time to declare on Mehmed too. I actually don't think we need to wait for Infantry, a pack Cannons + CR Grenadiers will work nicely.

It will be costly in terms of WW for sure, but the sooner we can finish these wars the better. We are already so much ahead of G in tech that we can afford running a high culture % for some turns.

Big Pig · May 20, 2007

Turn 3:
Murcia has fallen and Isa is left with Nidaros. I hope H doesn't take advantage of her....

Big Pig · May 21, 2007

Well, not my finest turnset.

War with Isa was quick and straight forward. She now has Horse Island as her capital. It is presently ungarrisoned and at risk of attack from H (or anyone else)
War with M is another matter. Prior to DOW I gave him Gaz, and steel / steam power to encourage trading with G, and upgraded a bunch of grenadiers to infantry. Gifting steel may have been a tactical error as he managed to find a lot of old cats to upgrade and cause havoc in our infantry SODs . He also found a hitherto un-noticed (by me) stack of cavalry which he landed with a stack of rifles and cannons mid-way between Edirne and Istanbul while all our troops were camped outside Bursa. And the WW is seriously harming our economy (culture slider is at 70&#37. But we dealt with his little invasion, captured Bursa and have a SOD poised to capture Ankara (Versailles city) next turn. Oh, and we also captured Gazientep... I am slightly embarassed about this one. Basically I had a cavary pillaging the tiles around Gaz. So I moved him from 1 tile on the East of Gaz to a tile on the West of Gaz - and the cavalry promptly detoured through the undefended city and captured it.....
Brennus has broken free of M. I'm thinking there is no real need to ever gert peace with Brennus as he is no threat, and may eventually become cautious with G and start trading.
G has captured CF and Turfan. And has troops heading in the direction of MC and Karak
We have discovered RR
No civics changes yet - but the WW is so huge that now would be a good time to change.
We are 4 turns from Kremlin in NH. Haven't started a Scot Yard build anywhere yet.
It looks as if G has been trading with M as G now has Steam Power and Steel

Spoiler :

Big Pig · May 21, 2007

Turn log part 2:

Spoiler :

LowtherCastle · May 21, 2007

Big Pig said:
Oh, and we also captured Gazientep... I am slightly?!?!?!?!?!? embarassed about this one. Basically I had a cavary pillaging the tiles around Gaz. So I moved him from 1 tile on the East of Gaz to a tile on the West of Gaz - and the cavalry promptly detoured through the undefended city and captured it..... So tell us the punch line: Did you pillage the tile or not?

Guys, I forgot to mention in advance that BP is renowned for his revolutionary discoveries. This new one is sure to go down in history as the Big Pig WW Bonus Capture How to magnify your war weariness against all odds.

I guess the Comedy of Errors continues....

LowtherCastle · May 21, 2007

Big Pig said:
But we dealt with his little invasion, captured Bursa and have a SOD poised to capture Ankara (Versailles city) next turn. Very well done. Those diversions can be scary.

Brennus has broken free of M. I'm thinking there is no real need to ever gert peace with Brennus as he is no threat, and may eventually become cautious with G and start trading. We'll eventually want peace with him so we can give him techs to make them cheaper for G.

G has captured CF and Turfan. And has troops heading in the direction of MC and Karak Not sure how realistic, but do we want to consider cash-rushing Statue of Liberty for G if he arrives at the door-step of Karak? If so, we need to save up that cash in advance. Maybe before changing civics. We can wait to change civics till the 7th turn of the war with M...

It looks as if G has been trading with M as G now has Steam Power and Steel Outfingrageous!!!

Don't have time to do it myself, but you guys might take a look at the tech chart to see if there's another way to hurry G along. G may now have something that W doesn't have? Or Isa?

You'll have to decide which M city to leave in the end. Preferably one with the least culture creep for us and W.

Wonder what M is going to think next time we offer him Gaz? :lol:

LowtherCastle · May 21, 2007

Maximum # of Shared War Plusmods

Here are the maximum numbers of plusmods G will get with AIs fighting us:

Brennus +4
Hannibal +3
Isabella +2
Mehmed +4
Washington +3

Supposedly, these amounts start at +1 and increment every 8 turns of war.

I don't think we need to remain at war with them for those peaks to remain in effect. There is probably some memory decay, but I don't know what it is.

LowtherCastle · May 21, 2007

Big Pig said:
We are 4 turns from Kremlin in NH.

If G advances quickly on Karak, you might even cash rush Kremlin when G's 3 tiles away, Statue of Lib 2 tiles away... (but don't wait till he's 1 tile away so the cash-rush goes for nought in the interturn...) and if he's coming with a mounted unit (not WEleph), all bets are off.

LowtherCastle · May 21, 2007

Ok, looked at the dam save...

Forget SoL, Karak is gone (MC too), let's get rid of Besh asap too, then we've accomplished our original goal.
There's a settler SE of Gergovia--immediately settle on the far west desert tile and gift city to Isa. H doesn't like her at all.
We need peace with B (still not talking...) and M asap, because W and Isa are way too advanced to trade with G. If possible, demand FR with B in the peace deal. Then he might come up to cautious with G.

Big Pig · May 21, 2007

LowtherCastle said:
Ok, looked at the dam save...

Forget SoL, Karak is gone (MC too), let's get rid of Besh asap too, then we've accomplished our original goal.

There's a settler SE of Gergovia--immediately settle on the far west desert tile and gift city to Isa. H doesn't like her at all.

We need peace with B (still not talking...) and M asap, because W and Isa are way too advanced to trade with G. If possible, demand FR with B in the peace deal. Then he might come up to cautious with G.

Perhaps Gaz might be a better spot for Isa? She should be safe there. We can leave M his SE coastal city. And we can use the settler to (eventually) build Vienne West (or has W got in the way with LA?) (NB I am continuing to build culture in Murcia to put pressure on LA)

We will not be able to demand FR with Brennus unless we have it too. I'm not sure that W and Isa are that much more advanced than G - especially not Isa. In fact I was toying with the idea of gifting her another tech (?elec - I can't see the save) - to encourage another trade with G

Gnejs · May 21, 2007

Big Pig said:
Well, not my finest turnset.

War with Isa was quick and straight forward. She now has Horse Island as her capital. It is presently ungarrisoned and at risk of attack from H (or anyone else)

War with M is another matter. Prior to DOW I gave him Gaz, and steel / steam power to encourage trading with G, and upgraded a bunch of grenadiers to infantry. Gifting steel may have been a tactical error as he managed to find a lot of old cats to upgrade and cause havoc in our infantry SODs . He also found a hitherto un-noticed (by me) stack of cavalry which he landed with a stack of rifles and cannons mid-way between Edirne and Istanbul while all our troops were camped outside Bursa. And the WW is seriously harming our economy (culture slider is at 70%). But we dealt with his little invasion, captured Bursa and have a SOD poised to capture Ankara (Versailles city) next turn. Oh, and we also captured Gazientep... I am slightly embarassed about this one. Basically I had a cavary pillaging the tiles around Gaz. So I moved him from 1 tile on the East of Gaz to a tile on the West of Gaz - and the cavalry promptly detoured through the undefended city and captured it.....

Brennus has broken free of M. I'm thinking there is no real need to ever gert peace with Brennus as he is no threat, and may eventually become cautious with G and start trading.

G has captured CF and Turfan. And has troops heading in the direction of MC and Karak

We have discovered RR

No civics changes yet - but the WW is so huge that now would be a good time to change.

We are 4 turns from Kremlin in NH. Haven't started a Scot Yard build anywhere yet.

It looks as if G has been trading with M as G now has Steam Power and Steel

Great play BP! :goodjob:

Well, apart from the Steel and Gaz blunders...

Looking good on Mehmed. If I remember correctly M only had 4 cities, so once you capture Ankara he will be down to 2. Correct? If so, only one more before we can get peace again. If we should ever make any more civics changes, this seems the right time.

We should make Scotland Yard a top priority. Unless this has also been disabled... Is Seville a good production city?

Gandhi seems to be very blood-thirsty. We only have MC, Karak, and Besh left for him to capture, right? We need to think on how we should defend NH so we can pop those Engineers and build the Space Elevator, which I assume is best to build directly in NH.

LowtherCastle · May 21, 2007

Big Pig said:
Perhaps Gaz might be a better spot for Isa? Seems reasonable.

We will not be able to demand FR with Brennus unless we have it too. Good point. Good reason to adopt FR. I hadn't thought of that before. I'm not sure that W and Isa are that much more advanced than G - especially not Isa.

Isa doesnt' have steam power but that's worth something like 3000 :science:

less than Electricity. I think we want G to catch up with them before gifting anything else. If we watch what G techs next then gift something else. But if G is teching Elect and we gift it, we shoot ourselves in the foot.

Gnejs said:
Well, apart from the Steel blunder... Not a blunder, I don't think. Our first priority is for G to get those techs and he did...poof...just like magic...

We should make Scotland Yard a top priority. Yes, maybe in Vienne? Unless this has also been disabled...

We need to think on how we should defend NH so we can pop those Engineers and build the Space Elevator, which I assume is best to build directly in NH.

Definitely. We could maybe build the 3GD there too.

I suppose we don't need Kremlin after those 2 anyway.

LowtherCastle · May 21, 2007

RED ALERT!!!

With Versailles down S and FP in the middle, we definitely want our capital to jump to Bibracte (or do we?). Someone needs to take a look at the formula i posted about 859 posts ago (+/-400 posts) and see what we can do to prevent it from going to Madrid when G is on Karak's doorstep. Waste of time having to build it in Bibracte. (Or do we want to build it somewhere else?)

Also, @BP, if G's WE starts pillaging towns, you might want to zoom a couple wkrs over from NH to lure him into Karak w/o further undo.

Big Pig · May 21, 2007

LowtherCastle said:
Definitely. We could maybe build the 3GD there too. If you can work out a way of diverting the nearest river. SE may be nixxed by the latitude

I suppose we don't need Kremlin after those 2 anyway.

The Kremlin will be useful for getting our infrastructure in place in our newer cities and for rush-buying defences if necessary.

Free Religion. Bottom-line is whether the ability to missionary spam and the production bonus on buildings (such as Scotland Yard, 3GD etc) is outweighed by the 10% research bonus.

As we haven't killed any of B's units in this current war, he may not respond to demands he switches to FR anyway.

Big Pig · May 21, 2007

LowtherCastle said:
Also, @BP, if G's WE starts pillaging towns, you might want to zoom a couple wkrs over from NH to lure him into Karak w/o further undo.

Erkon is next up

Once NH has finished the Kremlin (and that grocer) it needs a coal plant and the Pentagon (for extra security that it will pop a GE )

Big Pig · May 21, 2007

LowtherCastle said:
Someone needs to take a look at the formula i posted about 859 posts ago (+/-400 posts) and see what we can do to prevent it from going to Madrid

Good job there is that useful links post on Page 1 of this thread then...... I'm sure this is exactly the sort of thing it was created for....

SGOTM 04 - Murky Waters

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

bringing home the bacon

bringing home the bacon

bringing home the bacon

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

bringing home the bacon

Deity

Deity

Deity

bringing home the bacon

bringing home the bacon

bringing home the bacon

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