SGOTM 04 - Team VQ

[Maquis]

I suspect my turns will be centered around units more then improvements. We've got to have barbs showing up in greater numbers, at least until we can fog bust efficiently.

I actually only saw one barb (warrior) during my turnset, and he was headed off to Mongolian lands... So they're not exactly raging at this point...

And no, I did not build a ship yet. There is a turn or two left on Rax in the capital.

As for number of turns, I played 20... and that seemed short, but I didn't want to overextend my welcome either

 

[namliaM]

I think we can do 20 for now right?? maybe a turn or 2 more if that makes a nice cut of turn....

Why indeed is Nadira on stagnant?? We can grow another population...
Warriors we can build 2 in 3 turns that is nice and quick for Fog busting
Or build 1 chariot in 2 turns...
Trireme is 5 turns tho... and we have none at the moment getting one for scouting Gandhi's land and beyond (via the northern tundra) would be very nice...

Uppsala can grow to size 2 while finishing that warrior, then start a worker to be whipped for 1 pop?? to finish it way faster than hand building it there...

BTW: We have not yet addopted slavery....

Edit: About barbs... I didnt spot any (animal) barbs near the city either I think ... the thing is as long as the barbs do not know where your city is... they cannot beeline for it either...

 

[frankcor]

Whoa, Cyan #1 AND Stonehenge? That's quite a coup!

I concur that Cyan #2 is a high priority to seal off our neighborhood. The jungle gap between Nidaros and our two Cyan cities should be safe for a while. The AI avoid jungle cities until they run out of non-jungle space to settle.

My suggestions:


Build Nidaros -> galley > axe > axe > settler ?

Build Uppsala -> Warrior (until Pop 2) then switch to Worker

Research -> definitely Pottery > Priesthood (for Oracle?)

Workers -> Road horses, copper then road to Uppsala

 

[namliaM]

I wouldnt yet build Axemen... get 4 or so Warriors out instead they make execelent (cheap) MP and Fog busters.

Couple of Chariots will also help against the barbs which are cheaper than axemen. I to think we need the settler sooner rather than later, but not without (atleast) 2 chariots or so to help it move protected.

Getting a galley out would be nice as well.

Edit: did you any of you folks check the progress page?? it is hillarious how our culture looks .... Now lets get to expanding and exploring...

 

[GreyFox]

Re: culture: Most experience SG players tend to shy away from an early religion gambit as they are usually war-mongers. We OTOH grab hindu and stonehedge. Look at the power graph and you won't find it hilarious anymore ....

The problem with Cyan #2 is the settling party needs to pass by the barb city at awlfully close proximity, so chariots escort is necessary. Chariots escort also means faster movement, since chariots can keep up with settler.

"Getting a galley out will be nice" ... uh-uh. Getting a trireme out will be better.

--

 

[namliaM]

The powergraph doesnt look that bad... I think we are doing OK...

Offcourse Trireme > Galley, more so considering we are sending it into Gandhi land... Still got vanilla and C3C on the brain

 

[Cosmichail]

mmmmmm religion gambit played by rookies aye?? Experienced players go a warmongering. Ok sounds good Greyfox but can you splain one ting senor, CFR used relgion for both SGOTM and look at the results. Look at our results for SGOTM03 and thnk religion would have helped us get better results. I remember the CFR team talking about taking a chance in SGOTM02 and it paid off for them big time.

So I don't think it's a matter of experience but play style. Religion for me isn't about accepting it, it's about the culture push for the founding city and respective buildings, temples, monasteries and cathedrals. Three monasteries add 30% science, so the hydra if pulled off, can make your capitol quite powerful and a landgrabbing culture push which I just love.

 

[Maquis]

Sorry about leaving the capital stagnated... that was a on my part. I stagnated it to max hammers for Stonehedge, and then forgot to change it back on my last turn.

 

[healium]

sorry team i have to request a skip-period even before i started playing.
i have a herniated vertebral disk and cannot sit in front of the computer at all. will be in the hospital monday. will report back after that.
sorry folks

 

[bobrath]

pre-turn jitters? No worries Healium, hope your back works out and you feel better soon.

Agree that walking a settler to cyan2 will require some sort of an escort, but would not a pair of fog busting axes camped on the barb city serve the same purpose?

Yes, a tireme will be far superior to a galley (unsure about hammer cost difference).

Religion wise, we now have some nice options since Ghandi has his own religion and we have ours since we can "force" folks into Ghandi's camp. This does require that one of our cities picks up his religion so that we can create missionaries for him and spread his religion. This (assuming a shrine) will increase Ghandi's economy as well. So we'll need to try to set up some "religion catching" cities along our border with G and *not* spread our religion to them until another does. Eventually we'll get lucky and can begin "helping" our "good buddy" Ghandi.
I'll be playing tonight.

 

[frankcor]

So we'll need to try to set up some "religion catching" cities along our border with G and *not* spread our religion to them until another does. Eventually we'll get lucky and can begin "helping" our "good buddy" Ghandi.

That's genius, bobrath. Would roads to the border help, too? How do religions spread from AIs with which we are at war? I've seen it happen in the past but I thought religions spread to cities with which you have trade routes. That doesn't make sense if you're at war with the AI.

A Galley makes more sense than a Trireme if there's a chance to pop some huts with a scout on board.

 

[bobrath]

IIRC religion spread can only be prevented by Theocracy (ie open borders have no effect on the automatic spread only on the missionary spread). Shrines increase the chance of the missionary-less spread. I'm not 100% certain how war affects this tho - might be a good thing to try in an SP game. Set up a map with two Religion happy civs (Izzy and ?) on one landmass and you on another (coastal separation) and declare war the moment you meet one of them (keeping peace with other). Then sit back and see if you get any religions from the war civ vs the other civ (but keep borders closed with both).

Do we have the tech for scouts? Regardless, since the hammer cost of triremes is equal to galleys (50 hammers each) and a Scout would cost 15 extra - I'd put forward the idea that the first ship out should be the more durable trireme while a follow-up scout + galley can go to pop huts and explore more friendly lands.

 

[GreyFox]

Of-course we have ... Ragnar start off with a settler and a scout. But no, a scout only make sense in caravel, not a galley in warlords. The AI loves to build triremes, so it becomes too risky to go exploring in galley (which gain little benefits, since chances are all huts are already popped on the same continent)

EDIT: Re religions spread: AFAIK, trade, open border, shrines, all encourage religion spread, not enable. I have a religion spread in an always war game once. But only once. So, one can assume that the prob of religion spread between two city is close to (but non-) zero. Having a trade route, open borders, or shrine helps increases this prob.

 

[bobrath]

Ok, I'm not 100% happy with my turns, but I'm not disappointed either. Just kind of ... meh

Anyway, I allowed Nidaros to grow again and it proceeded to churn out:
Tireme, Chariot, Chariot, Axeman, Settler (finish next turn). No whip applied

Upsala wasn't a good whip canidate because workers would cost 2 or 3 pop points! So it finished off the warrior and has barracks with 12 of 75 hammers in (can whip for one pop at any time). Set to overflow into a worker. No whip applied here either.

I changed research from Masonry to Pottery since we weren't going to pop Upsala's borders for 13 turns nor have a worker nearby for even longer. Just now restarted research on it (no beakers lost) 3 turns left to finish Masonry. In the mean time we discovered Pottery and Archery (barb fear got the better of me).

We did revolt to Slavery during my turns.

Killed one barb warrior with a chariot and all military units are now fully healed. Our two cities are connected thanks to a road and the river. Worker can no continue the road to Upsala to allow military traffic OR begin roading to Cyan2 if so desired.

Our chariots are north and south of the barb city (size 3 now) and a woodsman axe has just arrived outside the border. Intent to keep an eye on the city and get some free upgrades. Our settler should have a clear path to whichever site is desired. Border pops on both cities helped in fog busting, really only need to camp a unit in the far north and our internal area should be fine.

We're currently running 70% research @ 0 gpt with 1 g in the treasury.


Hmm, what else. It appears as if we have no worries about Ghandi being smart enough to find the stars:

and this might be a small reason why:

The resources of the known world:

and the cultural borders:

Guessing Ghandi has 4 cities and Khan has founded at least one to his west. I still think cyan2 is the next best choice, if only to seal our borders AND provide some extra fog busting.

Nidaros will grow soon (but this can be delayed if you build a worker next) - its at the happy and health limit. Corn is not yet farmed, and pigs are not yet roaded (so health will be fine).

Not much else to say, but enjoy the relative calm of these early turns!

The Save

Turn Log:

Spoiler :

Turn 92, 1240 BC: You have discovered Pottery!

Turn 93, 1210 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 93, 1210 BC: VQ adopts Slavery!
Turn 93, 1210 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Turn 96, 1120 BC: You have trained a Warrior in Uppsala. Work has now begun on a Worker.

Turn 98, 1060 BC: The borders of Uppsala have expanded!

Turn 100, 1000 BC: VQ's Chariot (4.40) vs Barbarian's Warrior (3.00)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Combat Odds: 89.4%
Turn 100, 1000 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: VQ's Chariot is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: VQ's Chariot is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: VQ's Chariot is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: VQ's Chariot is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 100, 1000 BC: VQ's Chariot has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 101, 985 BC: You have discovered Archery!
Turn 101, 985 BC: The Great Wall has been built in a far away land!

Turn 103, 955 BC: The borders of Nidaros have expanded!

 

[GreyFox]

Great job exploring Gandhi ... Delhi is outrageously absurd. But I am not complaining, that at least would help Gandhi stay ahead.

You researched archery but build no archers?

With a chariot and an axe nearby, we should probably raze that barb city soon.

We should probably stop the barracks in upsala and switch to a worker. No sense building something we don't need right now, and even if Uppsala grow to 3, it wouldn't improve the worker build rate any further.

Research wise, we should try to get writing and Priesthood for temples to allow Nidaros to grow.

We now know where GK has expanded to:

I am submitting a new dotmap:

Basically the same as namliaM's. However, proposed we grab the fish for blue dot. Why? It is better that way. at least that free the corn for a GP-Farm in the middle of the sugar field (orange dot).

Who's UP?

 

[namliaM]

i have a herniated vertebral disk

Wow, *OUCH* and into the hospital that fast... Good luck man... Dont be out to long or you will miss the whole game, us beeing VQ and all

About the religion spread, we allways have our friend Khan... If he can get OBs with Gandhi and have the religion spread to him, we have OBs with Khan => Spread to us... ??? Will require some luck I think seeing as religion spread is more like RNG than anything.
One game (OK back in Vanilla) I couldnt settle a city without getting a religion inside of 10 turns. (I hadnt founded one yet all other civs) The "painfull" part it was all the early 3 religions that spread to me so I had to missionary one all over .
Other games, I cannot seem to get a religion dispite the OBs... No matter how much I "try".
I do agree with the overall plan tho. If we can start spreading Gandhi's religion to ourselves (to start with) and next to all AI. This will/can have 2 benifits
1) The AI change to Gandhi's religion => Better relations => More trading/less war
2) More gold from the shrine (should Gandhi build it ??!! Again RNG?)

Upsala wasn't a good whip canidate because workers would cost 2 or 3 pop points! So it finished off the warrior and has barracks with 12 of 75 hammers in (can whip for one pop at any time). Set to overflow into a worker. No whip applied here either.

No no no.... havent you learned the whip yet??

You put some turns into the worker, yes at first the worker will be 2 pop.. but soon -in 15 turns or so- it will be one.
Whipping the barracks will generate minimum overflow, compared to just hand building the worker. I think also I would have build a granary to induce the growth instead of the barracks which we wont be using for a while there... since we need to build the Granary there too....
2 Options on Uppsala I think:
1) Swap to the worker, build it long enough (> 45 hammers into the worker) to be a 1 pop whip
2) Keep working the barracks (or swap to a Granary) and grow to size 4, whip the worker for 2. (to grow to size 4 is approx 17 turns)
And another option in Nadiros:
Handbuild a worker in Nadiros, which badly needs to connect that Corn for better production. We can use Nadiros to build workers/settlers like there is no tomorrow... At 25 production per turn, a settler every 6 turns or a worker in just 4.

*** Hmz *** After looking at the save. Nadiros allready has a worker in the que with 29 hammers into it. Which basicaly only leaves option 1. Build the worker for 4 more turns to get to a total of 49, now it should be whippable by 1 pop.

Re: Gandhi taking off into the stars...
Yes for now he is smart, on the other hand... he is very much limited by (land) space to go for space. Soon the other AI will have outexpanded the poor boldy and will start to out-tech him. I think we need to either improve our lands as good as possible to allow Gandhi to take over our lands (and that of Khan) ASAP.
+ We need to find ourselves a new home...
Gandhi has room for 5 more or less decent cities... I think... we have 2 options...
1) Claim/settle as much land/cities as we know how to settle it and improve it, where the AI may well bodge the job...
Then hope/pray that Gandhi comes in with some sort of offensive to take over our cities and doesnt deside to raze them...
2) Just setlle our dotmap

Including razing (I think, it is much better for gandhi in the end should he come in) the barb city and relocating it to the coast. (Hollow red)
Maybe even settling a city to our north just south of them sheep, eventually... Allowing gandhi 2 maybe even 3 cities (if he does it right, One to the north of red 3, One to the NW of Nadiros with the clams and one on the tundra) decen cities on our part of the world, making a larg(er) scale infation by him much more likely I think.

Another option is to make our civ strong settling everthing whiping out Khan along the way and allow Gandhi to settle that. Him having the cities that would otherwize be Khan's. Some 5 cities there I think?? Tho maintenance is going to be hell for Gandhi I think...

 

[namliaM]

Re: Khan settling, I am betting he has atleast one or 2 cities due east as well.

Re: Hollow blue...
Settling on the gold is not good I think. Also the fish have allready been netted by Gandhi, he is also (allready) throwing culture onto that fish. It is going to be a long hard culture battle over that fish tile before/if we get it... I think we want that gold online ASAP. Plus settling it where it can have the pigs (if not needed by Nadiros) will allow us to completely cottage (IIRC) the place up (other than the 2 resource tiles)

Also settling the red 3 on the gems is quite a waste... How about moving it 1 NW, where it will get the clams and fish (battle with gandhi for culture... + pillage risk)

Re: GP Farm, I think Karakorum would make a better one
The purple city is right where it should be I think...
The green city is high on food low on production and landtiles I think. How about moving it one NW? Missing the fish... and a bit low on food, but one or 2 farms maybe a windmill on those hills will resolve that.... Right now it has 6 (cottagable) land tiles.
Moving it NW would give it double (12) land tiles.
The sheep give +3, CC +2, making a total of +5. The hills and plains require 12 food tho... Mill all them hills (4 Grass, 2 Plains and 1 dessert) and you are left with only -5 food for the 2 plains hills, 1 dessert hill and 2 plains tiles. Leaving again 6 Cottagable tiles. But overall a much stronger city I think.
There is room for 1 more city up north on that Tundra tile just north of our "fog bust here" sign.

@Greyfox: How did you rotate the screen like that??

Roster
namliaM -- +1 gmt (Actually 0 atm due to DST)
Greyfox -- +8 gmt -- Made a new dotty for discussing
Maquis -- -7 gmt
Bobrath -- -5 gmt < Done it *meh*
Healium -- +1 gmt -- Auto skip due to a Herniated disk *Good luck man* and be well
Scowler -- gmt > The weekend man is UP
Frankcor-- -5 gmt <Lurker>
Cosmichail -- -5gmt > The flying canadian On deck

 

[Scowler]

Fine, I'll take a peek once I've read through namliaM's latest essays
If I play tomorrow, Cosmic can then have it on Monday when he has more time.

 

[GreyFox]

Ctrl-F, go into flight mode, you can rotate the map anyway you want. I then used gimp to rotate it back (thus the city names are now rotated). I think Alt arrow key will rotate the map in 45 deg step (IIRC).

I thought the red dot is where you proposed, I must have placed it one tile too north. Same, I thought the solid blue dot is where you proposed.

Re: hollow blue dot, remember we have stone hedge, it is a fair fight. Also, re: settling on the gold, explain to me why it is bad. At where solid blue dot is, it will be a very very long time before we can work on all 3 gold mines. Settling on one have the benefit of immediately connecting it.

What's the point of settling on Tundra when you don't even want to settle a city with slightly higher ocean tile?

--

 

[Cosmichail]

WHaaatt we get archery when we have copper and horses. What a waste of beakers at this point. Barbs should fear us not the other way around with chariots to kills axes and archers (only on non defensive terrain can a chariot take out archers).

Are you sure Gandhi has enough resources in his capitol. He's got enough there for an OCC.

Stone/gems/elephants should provide him with adequate commerce production to make him shoot to the stars. I am surprised he practically has no land and thought for sure there would be more land on the other side of him. The other AI's are on another continent so being Ragnar should be fun with our sea faring abilities.

New rule: no more smoking whilst playing............

I like getting pottery so we can get those cottages up and running soon and build granary for whipping. I do agree though that capitol shouldn't be whipped as it isn't that food rich as some whipping cities. Aaaaahhhh Kyoto brings back fond memories of whipping abuse. Maybe we can find an island like that somewhere. With other AI's likely on another continent are we going to need astronomy?

Settling

I am fine with settling on the gold immediate happy once roaded. No worries about pillaging and we can't work all the gold anyways. We can settle the hollow blue get our use of it and then let Gandhi capture it. Again I am dubious whether the AI will take a city unless we practically handfeed him. Gandhi would have to traverse across water to take the city mmmmm AI doesn't know how to sail maybe that's why Ragnar is there to teach him.

Short term:

Get cities settled/ and get some axes/chariots.
Genghis - when do we start the warring. Wait for construction or try to take some of his newer cities with axes/chariots. I notice too we are down to 70% science and definitely need a commerce city to offset that. A few more cities and we drop to 50% I would imagine.

Long term:

Find other AI's. If not able to get there by galley we will need to go sea faring path: IW/compass/machinery/optics....... and calender too for astronomy. We are talking about GP farms (Karakorum) so maybe do the lightbulb thing again to get us astro of which namliaM knows the path and which techs to avoid if we want to lightbulb astro.

Have fun Scowler and I can pick this up on Monday.