SGOTM 04 - Team VQ

[GreyFox]

I wanted to go for BW is not for whipping ... (I was never a great fan of whip, I do whip, but not as much as some players do) ... it is to reveal copper for our settler. IMHO, we should never whip our capitol, except for really urgent build, or when we accidentally grow the capitol past the happy limit.

Explain to me why we want to go Monotheism? For OR? Or for Judaism?

There are 3 valid opening moves in Civ4 teching: the learning path which is the top branch of the tree, going for early writing and literature; the warmonger path which is the bottom branch of the tree, going for BW and IW, and even early MC; and finally the hydra path in the middle of the tree, going for religions grab. Each are perfectly valid moves, depending on situation. The problem with the middle path is you fall behind in tech and isn't strong military wise that you find yourself overwhelmed with superior troops in greater quantity. This makes the hydra path more suitable in lower-difficulty, or for an isolated start (eg archipelago).

--

 

[Cosmichail]

A quote from a civ player but don't recall his handle. Land = power....

I see an awful lot of land and probably a lot more on the other side of Gandhi and north of us although I suspect that the northern part may be only a few tiles from the coast. The amount of land that will be available to the AI is going to make them large and difficult to deal with. (I know sound like a broken record but when they have room to grow it proves to be a challenge)

I am saying that if anything we need to settle fast although I would have liked to build a wonder or two but it doesn't seem doable with Genghis as our neighbour. So I am all for getting a settler after scout/warrior. Of course should BW net us copper in our capitol and we see that GK has none I would say for an early axe rush. (just a consideration since getting settlers out is important too)

Also I was for getting Judaism for the culture and happy which we are going to desperately need with being at war during the entire game however we need to know where the copper/horses are.

I am in agreement with the intended path as outlined by Greyfox. I am sure Greyfox you know appr. when barb axes will start showing up so we need to make sure we either have chariots, archers, or axemen by then.

As to the hydra we missed that boat already (well Buddhism in 12 turns says it) so if we want another religion it will have to be a later one considering the circumstances of our map. By the time we get our first settler out Genghis will have two or three settled already. This is going to be a real challenge having Gandhi 8 tiles away and Genghis spawning like crazy. I hope the SG pro's can make this work as I have my concerns as how well we will do. If there is room to grow north then we should try to cut off any AI's from taking any land. We seem to be also on the same landmass as Gandhi so we need protect ourselves from him too and barbs.

Bottom line:

Military path is needed to contain Genghis/barbs and keep Gandhi at bay since he spawns too and techs fast.
A secondary tech path == writing for libs and scientists...
Pottery shouldn't be too far off for some cottages if we can contain the barbs

Also if it's ok I would like to be included in the roster Maquis. Right now I have no idea where I stand turnwise. It is likely I don't get to play this week and weekend is out so put me at the bottom so that I can play early next week.

We need a roster and turns that each player is playing. 20 turns sounds good to me for the first round and thereafter down to 10 or 15.

 

[namliaM]

I was indeed thinking Judaism AND to get it into the capitol, why? 2 religions are better than one. Or... 2 shrines... I allways try to stack religions cause off Wall Street, there is only 1. So 2 shrines in 1 city = mucho money = good place for WS.
Given that it is nearly impossible to get a second religion into the capitol once we have city #2...
Maybe we can stack 2 other religions someplace...

Khaaan is allways a pain and needs to be delt with. Tho I dont know given the nature of the game if it is wise to cripple him, we want the AI to run away from us while we limp behind someplace... Maybe we should pull an All gore?? Limit our cities to like 4 or 5, make sure we "create some space" here and there for Gandhi...

We dont need the happy that much, WW only comes when you fight and Gandhi is not one to send over a huge stack remember SGOTM2 where we didnt get any WW from beeing at war either.

I suspect there is not to much land to our immediate north either would be looking more like continents if there was. I also think there is the water blocking Gandhi from getting to us (in the north), so if he is going to get us it is going to have to be thru the long walk south. But I agree we need some defense in place other than Warriors.

How about throwing in Priesthood (IIRC) for the Oracle to pick up MC and/or some GP points for the shrine.

 

[GreyFox]

I guess that is your intention when suggesting Masonry + Mono, but I really don't think we will survive Khan if we go that route. We are not isolated enough to grab multi-headed hydra. The gold benefits is long term wise but we have to survive in the short term first.

I am still inclined to my outlined tech path.

Research: AH > BW > Argi > Writing or IW or Archery (depending on barbs and copper appearance)

Build: Warrior (too much hammer invested, I will let it complete) > Scout (worth it?) > Warrior > Settler

Countdown to the time I start playing: 24hrs

namliaM should post an updated roster as you are voted the leader

 

[namliaM]

Roster
namliaM -- +1 gmt (Actually +2 atm due to DST)
Greyfox -- +8 gmt
Maquis -- -7 gmt
Bobrath -- -5 gmt (I think please clarify)
Healium -- ?gmt
Scowler -- gmt
Frankcor-- -5 gmt
Cosmichail -- -5gmt (I think)

I currently have no clue what the timeline is on BW... in conjunction with the settler... but how about this?

Warrior (MP) > Warrior > Warrior (for some fog busting and some scouting) > Lighthouse > Settler (whipped for 2 or 3 pop)

I dont know about Agriculture, we dont really need the corn online yet... we have plenty of food as it is (for now). Can we skip Agri and go for Wheel => Pottery instead?
Allowing us to build that granary and start some cottages in city #2.

Are we still rooting for the Oracle? If so we need to plan that in someplace too.

 

[bobrath]

Again, I'm on Central Standard Time which right now is -6 gmt, however the States will be switching to daylight savings time in a few weeks and that will move me to -5gmt.

My initial Hyrda comment would only have applied if were sufficiently isolated to not have to worry about teching into a war right away. Genghis as a neighbor makes that tough. SO:

I see two paths here for our long term strat:
1) "Please Don't Hurt Me" - in which we go tech crazy and get into a defensible position that allows us to hold off attacks but not go crazy aggresive. We give out techs like its Christmas and hope that Ghandi launches - We try to affect the world via spies and perhaps controlling the UN.
2) "Did I do that?" - build up a nice core set of cities in our current starting position. Ones that would be perfect for building spaceship parts (space elevator would be ultimate). We also build up a second core of cities that is decently removed from the first. We'll need to have good military power to do this since we'll be carving out a new empire AND maintaining it across a span. At a relatively key point, we abandon the first core in such a way that Ghandi is able to roll those cities up with no cares and we sit back to watch the launch - applying the hammer to anyone that looks wrong at Ghandi.

Assuming we can count on Ghandi to take a city from us (big assumption imo), then the second option is much more likely to induce the loss we want. However, its going to take some pretty hefty planning and playing to make sure we time it right AND can afford to do it.

So shrining and wall streeting up our capital to make great financial strides... will help the early part of the later strategy since it could cover the costs of running a larger empire. We've got a financial trait - use it!

Lastly, we're freakin vikings! Where is our exploratory ship in the above two builds? Knowing the size and shape of our world will be key to game planning and ships will be able to do that faster and safer then land units (don't forget our UB).

 

[namliaM]

For beeing vikings we would want the Trading post up to ensure our 3rd move ... Or??

To count on Gandhi to have units to spare to take cities from us that are perfect for building parts... well... I think that is indeed a big assumption + we had better do it EARLY => No need for lots of money.
AI will rebuild a lot of infrastructure prior to building SS parts in captured teritory.

How about 3:
We tech like crazy and war every now and again razing cities opening spaces for Gandhi to plop down new cities.
The down side of this is that the ideal place for Gandhi to expand into is OUR space which would be just east of his capitol. However we need that for our expansion.
Thus falling back into 2, counting on Gandhi to capture those cities as we cannot raze our own cities....
Also we will have to deal with the (big?) WW of losing cities in a war...

Or 1b Please dont hurt anyone, except ...
Once we hit industrialism (or somesort of tech there abouts) we go after every civ. Not to destroy them but pillage/raze/capture everything that looks like it can produce a SS part inside of 10 turns. But in that same process do not touch anything that looks like it is pumping out science.
Leaving the tech beast(s) in one peace, but killing production... That way Gandhi cannot help but win I think/hope...

 

[healium]

GMT +1

just a couple of ideas:

one of the keys to a good placement should be to keep up the worldwide techspeed and have as many civs as possible trade with ghandi. kind of an addition to keep in mind for the "Please Don't Hurt Me" strategy.

maybe we can try to have two wars with the Genghis. in the first we cripple him bad so he is not match for the second war. just before we start war II we give him lots of tech that he will than hopefully give to ghandi once they have the mutual thing against us.

what is the fastest launch date possible in monarch?(UN in 1310 anyone?) and how is it done? we should try to tech into that direction and than do some sort of tech/infrastructure transfer to ghandi.

the only way to have ghandi take cities from us should be him capturing them right? or can we gift cities without signing peace?


just a few questions because this is my first SGOTM:
i installed the latest HOF Mod what should i/do i have to enable in the options?
am i allowed to download the save and have look at it if i don´t move anything?
to what size would u like me to resize the screenshots?

 

[GreyFox]

You can't trade anything during war, except when negotiating peace treaty. For this case, we can't even bring up the diplo screen with Gandhi in a permanent war state.

As I'd mention much much earlier, the only way to transfer tech to Gandhi is to have him capture a city with Internet built. But that's much much later.

 

[bobrath]

To avoid WW from losing cities... gift them to another civ that's at war with Ghandi as well, then attack them to wipe out defenders and *hope* Ghandi moves in?

I do agree that we have to be somewhat the bully in this game. Anything that looks remotely frightening or threatening to Ghandi has to be smashed (so we'll need to be exploring and scouting the entire game). Until we know what Ghandi has available to him for his own expansion, some of this discussion will be moot. If Baldy has a huge island to himself then we're golden. *if* on the other hand he has a tiny spec then we're going to have to do some clearing/creative city gifting.


BTW, is city raizing turned on or off for this game?

 

[namliaM]

Roster
namliaM -- +1 gmt (Actually +2 atm due to DST)
Greyfox -- +8 gmt
Maquis -- -7 gmt
Bobrath -- -5 gmt
Healium -- +1 gmt
Scowler -- gmt
Frankcor-- -5 gmt
Cosmichail -- -5gmt (I think)

@Healium
If you load the save either by double clicking it or using the game menu the HoF mod will automaticaly be loaded. So if you dont want to play your SP game with it, you dont have to do anything but for maybe enable an option here or there.
Once loaded you will find a few extra options available to you in the options screen.
I suggest you make sure to check:
- Exotic Foreign Advisor
- CIV4LERTS
They are of great help... IMHO

You are allowed to download the save and look at things. The general rule is: Look but dont touch.
You are allowed to change things IF they can be undone, like changing the worked tiles inside a city. As they can allways be rearranged.
But you are not allowed to do anything that cannot be undone like arrange a peace treaty.
If in doubt, look but dont touch.

Screenshots as a general rule I believe are "forum size" i.e. 800x600 IIRC is the bigest screen that will fit inside the frame(s) of the forum on your average 1200x1000 (IIRC) screen.

@Bob
There are no special options clicked other than "no diplo victory" so we can do anything we want to anyone anyway (except kill Gandhi)

** Me off play SP to kill Gandhi **

 

[Cosmichail]

-5 gmt

The best place I find for uploading pictures is photobucket where the picture is downsized to 800X600 automatically. Once it's uploaded it will provide a link to paste into your report.

@bobrath - city razing is on as the first stated that all other settings are default but better to check that in game.

As to Gandhi taking our cities we'll we've seen how effective Monty was at that. I have my doubts about that unless it's on his doorstep. I am sure if we keep the wolves from Gandhi's doorstep he will do fine unless there are other civs on the other side of him. Fractal can be several large landmasses so there may be another continent out there.

Again my concern is if we can keep up with the AI having lots of room to spawn unlike our last Sgotm where they had no room and we could tech very fast especially having the TGL. I think we should consider that this game will play a lot differently than the last in teching/warring.

@Healium - we have to hope that Genghis has a good relationship with Gandhi if we give him techs.

As to getting a ship out there after trading post I concur.

The area west of us, we are going to need badly for happy since we don't have any in capitol. We need to get what we want fast and again watch out for Genghis he spawn cities very fast.

At this point talking about gifting cities to Gandhi is academic until we get our empire afloat. We should go a military route as Genghis can be unpredictable and attack at the worst time. I would even say if we have copper we just take him out completely especially if he's lacking it.

From what I can see Gandhi has gems in his capitol so he will tech fine on his own probably better than us. We need to strategize on a turn by turn basis rather than try to plan so far ahead. The game is way too volatile to make any long, long term plans until we get our empire up and running. Our capitol will spit out units very fast and building any wonders at this point may not be a good idea with an imperialistic civ south of us. The AI may even settle right away on OUR spot just to get happy resources etc. So don't be surprised when our settler is ready that spot is gone. (I have seen AI travel very far just to get happy/health resources and Genghis can build settlers very fast)

Fortunately that imperialistic trait becomes kind of useless after he's finished settling except for the GG bonus.

 

[namliaM]

@bobrath - city razing is on as the first stated that all other settings are default but better to check that in game.

Which is what I did before posting the same ...

Gandhi has both Gems and Gold both of which he can mine right off (I spotted a worker mining the northern gem allready when our scout was there).

So Yes.... Maybe Gandhi can tech just fine on his own and all we need to do is make sure no one goes space (except gandhi) bet lets see what the game brings.

I do slightly disagree with you cosmic. I think we need a firm plan atleast for now to start. As simple as:
1) Do we kill each AI (except gandhi)
2) Do we keep every AI and cripple them later (near the end)
Makes for a totaly different stratagy...

 

[Cosmichail]

1) Do we kill each AI (except gandhi)
2) Do we keep every AI and cripple them later (near the end)
Makes for a totaly different stratagy...

How does that change strategy please clarify. Yes a big picture approach is good but the best of plans are often changed by unforeseen circumstances.

I think the questions should be this:

Can we keep up enough with AI to even cripple them. Monarch warlords and lots of land means AI will grow very, very fast. Just look at Nidaros 2 pop and Karakorum at 6 already.

I don't think with this type of map you can just build an empire and let AI do their thing. NOT a good idea. We need to act fast and cripple Genghis as fast as we can before he becomes too big for us to handle and we are facing longbows. Expansion is a problem at this stage too as once you get to 5 cities that's it you start to feel the pinch. Even with Ragnar's financial trait it becomes difficult to expand fast beyond 5 cites until some cottages start to mature and COL is available for courthouses or markets for increased revenue. Another thing too is the trade routes which again we won't have much revenue from until we meet other civs who are on the same landmass and we can broker deals with.

So again how does the strategy at this point differ?
Build order - or tech order

We really can't make an informed decision until we know more about our surroundings so I think initial strategy should be this:

Teching as outlined by Greyfox (totally agree)
Build trading post and ship to explore and find us some more AI's

The barbs too with a lot of fog out there will also become a problem soon so we need to plan for that as well and as we know warriors don't cut as barbs axes are never that far away.

We need archers/ or chariots/ or axes soon. By knowing where the horses/copper is we will need to get settled whereever it is and if we are lucky and it's in the capitol even better.

That's the immediate plan

Long term: take down Genghis asap.

Don't leave him to spawn or get big enough to cause major grief. It would be a big mistake to leave him imo and we are Ragnar (check his history) we don't sit idly by and watch another civ take all our lands. Forget that. Let Genghis spawn at first it means he is using hammers for settlers in the mean time if our capitol should have copper then we should strike fast especially if he grabs something we want.

Also what stops Gandhi from just sailing across those waters and settling near us. Stupid AI will settle even during war right on your borders.

One thing we have advantage right now is production as the AI tends to even cottage grass hills so production tends to be light with them. That too can be Gandhi's achilles heal since he tends to do that as well so he tends to have his cities lightly defended. We need to assess what is on the other side of him. Maybe Gyathaar has a keen sense of humour (being Viking and all) and put another aggressive civ on the other side of Gandhi. Now that would make for interesting gameplay. If it's Alexander even more fun with the Berserkers.

So again how far ahead can you plan when we don't know much yet. We need intel then make long term plans. If another civ is on the other side of Gandhi our long term strategy completely changes especially if it's an aggressive AI. IF is a big word and if my aunt had nuts she'd be my uncle or as Greyfox said Pigs fly. So INTEL is needed to make informed decisions.

 

[namliaM]

I cannot say much to that. But... agree...

1 vs 2 = 1 we make sure Gandhi is left alone to tech and build as he sees fit.
Slower teching but guerantee we lose to spaceship of Gandhi

2 Faster teching but a lot harder on the end where we need to control the other AI not to launch before Gandhi does....

 

[bobrath]

Feels good to me Cosmic - I agree with the tech path as stated and on the need for exploration. Pending the discovery of bronze, we'll be making some fun choices soon.

 

[bobrath]

Countdown to the time I start playing: 24hrs

Alright, that was 26 hours ago.

 

[GreyFox]

We are listed as the 2nd most cultured, thanks to the Dancing Goddess:

We got animal husbandry, and I played until we get bronze working. The good news is, each resource revealed by each tech are within our great 2nd-in-the-world culture.

I explored the north, and indeed, we are blocked land wise from India:

The barbs are starting to spawn like the infestation they are. First our scout got killed by a lion, then a few barbs suicided into our warrior:

They even have a city nearby:

As apparent from the screenshot above, Gandhi has at least a second city.

Here is the resource map: dot-map-fanatics, ready your paintbrush!

>>> The Save (2080BC) <<<

Spoiler CFC-Extracted-Log :

Turn 43, 2710 BC: Combat Odds: 32.2&#37;
Turn 43, 2710 BC: (Class Animal Combat: +100%)
Turn 43, 2710 BC: VQ's Scout is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 43, 2710 BC: VQ's Scout is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 43, 2710 BC: VQ's Scout is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 43, 2710 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 43, 2710 BC: VQ's Scout is hit for 19 (0/100HP)

Turn 45, 2650 BC: Barbarian's Lion (2.00) vs VQ's Warrior (4.10)
Turn 45, 2650 BC: Combat Odds: 0.8%
Turn 45, 2650 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 45, 2650 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 45, 2650 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 45, 2650 BC: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 45, 2650 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 45, 2650 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 45, 2650 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 45, 2650 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 45, 2650 BC: VQ's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Lion!

Turn 46, 2620 BC: Gandhi adopts Slavery!

Turn 48, 2560 BC: You have discovered Animal Husbandry!

Turn 50, 2500 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs VQ's Warrior (3.70)
Turn 50, 2500 BC: Combat Odds: 1.2%
Turn 50, 2500 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 50, 2500 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 50, 2500 BC: VQ's Warrior is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 50, 2500 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 50, 2500 BC: VQ's Warrior is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 50, 2500 BC: VQ's Warrior is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 50, 2500 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 50, 2500 BC: VQ's Warrior is hit for 14 (44/100HP)
Turn 50, 2500 BC: VQ's Warrior is hit for 14 (30/100HP)
Turn 50, 2500 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 50, 2500 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 50, 2500 BC: VQ's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 57, 2290 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs VQ's Warrior (3.78)
Turn 57, 2290 BC: Combat Odds: 2.5%
Turn 57, 2290 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 57, 2290 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 57, 2290 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 57, 2290 BC: VQ's Warrior is hit for 14 (76/100HP)
Turn 57, 2290 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 57, 2290 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 57, 2290 BC: VQ's Warrior is hit for 14 (62/100HP)
Turn 57, 2290 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 57, 2290 BC: VQ's Warrior is hit for 14 (48/100HP)
Turn 57, 2290 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 57, 2290 BC: VQ's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 59, 2230 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs VQ's Warrior (4.09)
Turn 59, 2230 BC: Combat Odds: 1.8%
Turn 59, 2230 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 59, 2230 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 59, 2230 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 59, 2230 BC: (Feature: +20%)
Turn 59, 2230 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 59, 2230 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 59, 2230 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 59, 2230 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 59, 2230 BC: VQ's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 63, 2110 BC: You have discovered Bronze Working!
Turn 63, 2110 BC: You have discovered a source of Copper near Nidaros!

Spoiler HoF-Autolog :

Opps, think I forgot to enabled it, sorry!

Edit: @bob: I said start playing, give me sometime to actually play and report

 

[Cosmichail]

Wow we have both horses and copper in the capitol. Oddly enough we were talking about that on skype (namliaM). I felt that the terrain north of capitol is suitable for a copper find. Sure enough there it is. So move north really pays off now as capitol definitely will be good production center. Those barbs are going to get pesky as we see now already. Good thing we can start building axes once we a get roads. So I take the next tech choice ought to be wheel to connect our resources.

Good stuff and Gandhi growing nicely too. Khan probably has another city too but not visible yet. I see our settler will be done soon which is good so that second city will be up soon.

 

[GreyFox]

Yes, we should go for wheel ... I simply click on argiculture without thinking, as I intend to stop right when we learnt BW.

The capitol really turn out well, but the bad thing abt the copper site is it means one less cottage. Good thing abt it is it appears on a grassland, meaning working on it would be self-sufficient. Note also that had we not move north, we would be changing copper for a horse.

One thing is Khan is boxed in, unless there is more land towards the south. This might be good, might be bad. It certainly means that we should get-prepared for an inevitable mongolian campaign.

I have one turn invested in Trading Post while waiting for city to grow. What I am worried is our commerce rate. I had to alternate between working on the lake and the hills to have BW and settler come online at almost the same time. Our next city should be at the triple-gold site to enhance our commerce, either pulling in the fish or the corn. The corn might be a better choice, since that means we don't have to worry abt Gandhi pillaging it. However, that does means we need to learn agriculture soon. Also fish would produce 1 more food than corn field, I think pre-biology with a trading post. Plus fish represent +1 health, since we already have corn in the capitol.

Also, I had not revolted to Slavery, preferring to have the settler finish first.
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