SGOTM 04 - Trash Team

[pigswill]

A nice set and report from stuge

Despite the lengthy discussions the game is still only at 2000bc so we're not out of time yet. Its pretty likely that barbs will become the dominant feature of the next few sets and we've got wide open spaces to the north and south for barbs to spawn in (sounds a bit like 'alien', spawning, but you know what I mean). Excellent: CR3 axes waiting to be upgraded to berserkers .

Techwise I'm not sure about writing to be honest. We'll definitely need libraries (or caste system) to produce GS for our optics beeline but we'll be knocking out axes and workers and settlers (maybe barracks and TP and galley/trireme) before then. Uppsala can manage ok with borrowed pigs and three goldmines in the short term. If we're planning on whipping then granaries seems like an idea. We could even consider mysticism for monuments though it does seem a backward step. Who knows, we might get a religion spread to us . I'd still like to find out if there's any iron around so my research preference would be pottery IW (both on the optic beeline).

 

[remconius]

You're probably right Cap'n. What we have to realize is that cities up north are well suited for GP production, so by then we should have writing.

It's probably better to settle a town or 2 in the south first to block GK and take his horses.

 

[remconius]

I suggest everyone posts the roster at the end of their report. It's a simple copy and paste action, but keeps track of who's up and who's on deck.

Roster
Pigswill
Remconius
Stuge
Cam_H - UP
Cabert - On deck
MrMahk
Patagonia

Cam is not available until Friday. Cabert is not available this week. Maybe someone, like MrMahk can make a swap and play today/tomorrow. If nobody is against this swap.

 

[cabert]

Cam is not available until Friday. Cabert is not available this week. Maybe someone, like MrMahk can make a swap and play today/tomorrow. If nobody is against this swap.

I'm not against the swap but I want some more discussions before the next round is played.

The grand strategy as I understand it :
1) build a good empire, with good cities and infrastructure on our island
2) protect gandhi, and give him trading opportunities
3) conquer a foreign empire
4) leave our home island for gandhi to capture

For me, it's not reasonable to do a strict beeline to astronomy, since it would prevent us from achieving 1 and 2.
IMHO we need to gift gandhi cities with in each
- granary
- lighthouse
- forge
- market
- courthouse
- observatory

+ academies in some
+ forbidden palace in one.
(harbors and aqueducts are good too)

Observatory is long to build, but can be whipped a few turns before gandhi captures the city.
A smaller city is not in revolt as long as a big city = better for gandhi.
Forbidden palace requires 8 cities (with 6 courthouses). So we need to get those 6 cities!

About, culture, I veto (yes, I give myself a right to veto, I borrowed our president's UN veto right expecially for this ) any monument, monastery, or other culture buildings.
We need the libraries for science and scientists. Fine, let's build those.
We need the colossus for an early science boost. Fine, let's build it.
But we need no other culture building.
If we need to expand to the fat cross, let's use the library or caste system or culture building in the city needing it. If GK gives us a hard time with his culture, we'll kill him.
If gandhi flips a city of ours it's not a problem.

short terms issues:
1) open borders for GK?
It's not necessary IMHO.
He can find Gandhi without it now, and if he doesn't move that way, the open borders won't make him do it. + it gives GK a diplo demerit from gandhi (trading with us!).

2) tech order:
pottery > writing > alphabet
We need pottery to build the granaries.

After that I suggest trading for IW, maths if possible, more if possible). We need to trade alphabet around to increase the global tech pace. And it's good trading material anyway.

If we can have IW, it's time for MC (colossus!).

3) build order :
capital should focus on workers/settlers for a while
the other city should build barracks > troops. A few spears may be necessary.

 

[pigswill]

I'd prefer to wait for Cam on Friday. I'd prefer not to rush things at this stage. The main thing is to keep steady progress over the weeks rather than a stop-go approach.


I agree with cabert about the grand strategy. However in terms of implementation it would work just as well to give Gandhi a continent full of unimproved cities in 1000ad as giving him improved cities in 1500ad.

In terms of tech direction we could for instance beeline optics with a possible sidestep to maths/construction. Trade routes are less important in the first instance unless we discover AIs with coastal access. We won't be trading with Gandhi that's for sure.

We agree on where we're heading but not yet do we agree on the best way to get there.

Edit: If the team generally think we should be picking up the pace then I will of course go along with it.

 

[MrMahk]

I am fine with swapping, I could probably play now. But I will wait for approval and more discussion if necessary. Besides, I see no need to rush through this.

I agree with Cabert's "grand strategy" as well as his short term goals and also oppose a straight beeline to astronomy, and I think he gave excellent reasons why.

 

[remconius]

I dont mind waiting till Friday, it just seemed like such a long time.... just my impatience, I guess.

I agree with the strategy as laid out by Cabert.

One point, I cant give him a Forbidden Palace... it's a national wonder which cannot be captured. We can build Versailles for G to capture.

I like the idea of heading for Optics. Chances are we do not meet anyone before sailing the ocean.

For Optics we need sailing, pottery, IW, compass, MC, machinery and optics.
My suggestion would be sailing, pottery and writing (detour needed to assign scientists). Then IW and the other techs.

We only need alphabet if we have anyone to trade with. GK tends to have all techs red (not willing to trade). Chances are we will not meet anyone else until we get optics. I could be wrong but Gyathaar can be extreme in scenarios.

 

[cabert]

forbidden palace can very well be captured AFAIK.
I flipped a forbidden palace in my last cultural game.
I didn't even have the 8 cities required

edit: and about meeting others, let's check this out with a work boat. We need to find our victims, hum neighbours.

 

[Cam_H]

Hi y'all,

I should be able to play in 24 hours, but I might still want to liaise with the group first before getting too far ahead.

'The Grand Strategy' seems largely agreed, but now I'm not so sure on the micro!

Coastal exploration as per ^? Next city placement? Wonders? Great Scientists (refer "Academies" comment in post #184 for instance ... I thought we were lightbulbing our s)? Preparedness to deviate off the bee-line ... for instance Alphabet, Literature, Construction, etc. etc.?

As opposed to our last SGOTM ... I am more appreciative that 'patience is a virtue', and we should not rush our rounds.

 

[patagonia]

In reference to the grand strategy I wasn't aware national wonders could be captured either, but am happy to accept that they are if Cabert's done so in the past. Would I be right in thinking (in that case) that if Gandhi's already built his forbidden palace any he captures from us will be auto-razed when the city's taken?

Avoiding culture is a good idea (libraries aside), but as far as infrastructure's concerned we can't rely on buildings other than wonders surviving city capture. Granaries and trading posts make sense everywhere, as do courthouses/markets by and large, but I'd be against building just for the sake of it. Massing cats for our grand invasion may be a more useful option.

Short term, I think whether alphabet should come so soon depends on whether we find anyone other than the Khan to trade with. Remember that if we start trading techs with the Mongol, he'll rack up demerits with Gandhi for trading with his worst enemy which could prove counterproductive.

As far as playing pace goes, I'm happy with a slow and steady approach. I've already learned a thing or two from these discussions so hopefully they'll continue.

 

[pigswill]

Couple of thoughts.

Re research: let's follow optics beeline closely, once we find other civs we'll have plenty of trade material (MC, compass, machinery, optics) to backfill everything else (including alphabet, maths, currency, CoL, construction, monarchy). We can be building swords, spears and crossbows, galleys and triremes (everything we need except for cats).

Re wonders. If we're going for colossus then we'll go for it. Why not let GK take the marble site (though we'll take horses/gems etc south of Nidaros) and let him put resources into building wonders what we'll capture from him (and then Gandhi capture from us).

 

[Cam_H]

Good thoughts, although it depends if we want the free Specialist Scientists from the Great Library to help us with our pursuit of Astronomy. Will it divert us too far away from, or conversely propel us closer towards our pursuit?

Can I vote for Metal Casting before Iron Working? Should we deal with that later?

 

[cabert]

Good thoughts, although it depends if we want the free Specialist Scientists from the Great Library to help us with our pursuit of Astronomy. Will it divert us too far away from, or conversely propel us closer towards our pursuit?

Can I vote for Metal Casting before Iron Working? Should we deal with that later?

I hope we can trade for IW.
That's why I want some coastal exploration! We need to find trading partners!

 

[Cam_H]

So you want to veer off the bee-line and get Alphabet?

 

[cabert]

So you want to veer off the bee-line and get Alphabet?

that's my vote at least
How are we supposed to see who's a good trading partner for gandhi without alpha?
+ trading alphabet all around the place is the biggest "tech pace improver" I know.

 

[pigswill]

It all depends on whether there's another accessible civ. I'd prefer to explore with galley/trireme rather than WB coz WBs are too vulnerable (and we are at war with Gandhi).

I'd be very surprised if there was anyone else but you never know until you look.

Edit: techwise it looks like pottery, writing then debate IW vs MC vs Alph.

 

[cabert]

It all depends on whether there's another accessible civ. I'd prefer to explore with galley/trireme rather than WB coz WBs are too vulnerable (and we are at war with Gandhi).

I'd be very surprised if there was anyone else but you never know until you look.

sometimes, a creative leader expands enough to be in sight.
Sometimes even enough to be reached by boat, but that's not necessary.

 

[remconius]

In reference to the grand strategy I wasn't aware national wonders could be captured either, but am happy to accept that they are if Cabert's done so in the past. Would I be right in thinking (in that case) that if Gandhi's already built his forbidden palace any he captures from us will be auto-razed when the city's taken?

I was reading the vanilla manual and it states that national wonders cannot be captured. They will be destroyed upon capture of the city. Not sure if this changed in any of the patches or warlords expansion.

Exploration I agree with Cabert and Pigswill that we should set out to explore as soon as possible. I would be happy to explore with workboats, have done so in the past without issues. They are cheaper and move just as fast as galleys. By the time you want to send out units, the boats will usually be on the other side of the world. With trading post we get +1 movement so we can out run enemies if necessary. Only tricky part is exploration of Gandhi’s coast.

Techwise, Alphabet is the biggest tech pace improver of the game as Cabert says, but without trade partners its only useful to see techs of G and GK. We don’t know until we explore and we might still be able to reach everyone by coast . But then again this is the SGOTM and we could not meet anybody . In either case if we are heading for Optics, as the Cap’n states, we’ll have enough trading material to trade for Alphabet and other missing techs. In any other game I always head straight for Alphabet and Literature, but I think this game calls for a different approach.

My vote goes to Sailing > pottery > writing > MC.

Wonders – In the case we are disconnected from the world by ocean, I feel the Great Library is too much of a detour (Alphabet, Mysticism, Polytheism, Literature). My feeling is that the strategic advantage of meeting people sooner outweighs the benefits of the Great Library. I’d rather go for the Colossus for an early commerce boost instead and build less cottages.

Expansion: Let the capital build another settler while Uppsala builds the supporting axemen. Maybe the Capital should build a WB first while growing. The gold mines should be worked as soon as possible while Uppsala can build units and grow to size 4.

Next city is a tough choice:
->Up north we can build 2 high food cities (corn/sheep and clams/fish). They are good for GP production with libraries, but of low strategic value and low priority as we don’t have writing yet and the land is safe for us to settle.
->To the west we can settle near Gandhi on some good sites (fish/clams, 2xgems). They could get captured by Gandhi sooner or later. My feeling is to wait a while with settling these cities.
->To the south we can settle near the eastern or western horses. I think we should take both to prevent GK from building Keshiks. They are both pretty good sites, but rely on sugar for extra food. We need calendar for this, but even without calendar sugar gives +1 food IIRC. These are both strategically important sites, but are a bit away from the capital (especially the western one)
Lets go for the horse city due south first, then the other horses city followed by the northern cities.

 

[cabert]

I suggest settling to the south to prevent GK from growing too big.

And the manual is wrong about national wonders
At least if you culture flip the city.
Can't remember a time if I conquered by military force a national wonder...
Maybe it's not possible?
Let's assume it's not, and let Gandhi build a forbidden palace right next to his capital
Or is one of us going to run a WB test for this specific question?
I can't right now, but it's not a very difficult test to run:
start a duel map, add an opponent city right next to your capital, put the forbidden palace in it, no unit, add a chariot 2 tiles from the city, declare and tell us the result .

About tech order, I think sailing isn't necessary right now, because :
- we can build a work boat without it
- we only work 1 water tile, so the lighthouse isn't that grand
- we only have 1 coastal city

For pottery, a granary is really good for every city if we're going to whip a lot of things.
So my suggested tech order is pottery > sailing > writing then come back and discuss (alpha vs MC. IW will be available soon enough by trade IMHO).
+ granaries will give us health benefits we need if we go settling in the jungle.

 

[patagonia]

I suggest settling to the south to prevent GK from growing too big.

<snip>

For pottery, a granary is really good for every city if we're going to whip a lot of things.
So my suggested tech order is pottery > sailing > writing then come back and discuss (alpha vs MC. IW will be available soon enough by trade IMHO).
+ granaries will give us health benefits we need if we go settling in the jungle.

I'd definitely want to pick up IW after writing following this tech order. Although we can build axes and spears now, swords are better for taking cities with and knowing the location of iron might influence our dotmap. If we're expanding south (which seems to be the best option), it'll be an even more useful tech.

By the time we've teched IW, we'll know if there's anyone else nearby to make alphabet worthwhile.

The GLib is a lot of beakers and hammers we don't really need to invest, and a distraction from our strategy (CoL can ultimately be reached through maths and currency when expansion and caste system require it). However, from what I remember, Genghis has a pretty low "Ooh, shiny!" factor so even with marble I wouldn't bank on hiim attempting it.