SGOTM 04 - Xteam

[leif erikson]

Nice job with the questions Frederiksberg!

Perhaps we should think another way with Mehmed? What if we take and keep Ankara and then take Samsun and gift it to Washington and take Gaziantep and gift it to Izzie. Then we can try to make peace for tech as the Vassal agreement should be broken with H. Hopefully, we can pick up Artillery although Communism, Electricity or Biology wouldn't hurt. I am trying to think of ways not to raze those cities to, perhaps, give us a better shot at some good tech?

On War Weariness, should we have to go back to the culture slider, it hurts our research effort and we are getting a bit behind there.

I think the only thing about gifting cities is that we get a slight increase in positive relations? If so, that would help with both Washington and Izzie.

Good luck CP.

 

[Frederiksberg]

On War Weariness, should we have to go back to the culture slider, it hurts our research effort and we are getting a bit behind there.

True. I guess it all depends on how long the war will last and how many units we loose. Jails remove 25% WW meaning that moderate WW is unaffected due to rounding. That's why I want to wait a while before building many jails. One exception is hammer poor cities with large pop where we may have to start now in order to have the jail in time. Even with considerable WW a jail will only buy us 2-3 less angry citizens so in some cities it might be better to build a market or a forge to increase the happy faces instead.

I think the only thing about gifting cities is that we get a slight increase in positive relations? If so, that would help with both Washington and Izzie.

I'm afraid that gifting cities has absolutely no influence on diplomatic relations (Allthough you could argue that it should have. Go tell Firaxis )

 

[Cactus Pete]

"There is only one indian ship in the strait (galleon outside Chittagong). We can deal with that when we know what is going on with the fleet of 6 ships outside Delhi. I'm not convinced that Gandhi will use Chittagong for offense. Would it hurt to wait a little and see what happens? We can reinstall the blockade as soon as the Indian fleet outside Delhi is dealt with."

Makes sense. That is the plan I will follow, at least initially.

Beginning play now, but will check in regularly and probably file interim report(s).

 

[leif erikson]

Beginning play now, but will check in regularly and probably file interim report(s).

Looking forward to it. Hope they are happier than my recent dispatches...

No Latin, please?

BTW, in case you don't know, you can make peace while refusing to accept Capitulation, which results in a Vassal agreement. If you accept Capitulation, then we'll have Mehmed hanging around forever and our cities will always be wishing to rejoin their countrymen?

True. I guess it all depends on how long the war will last and how many units we loose. Jails remove 25% WW meaning that moderate WW is unaffected due to rounding. That's why I want to wait a while before building many jails. One exception is hammer poor cities with large pop where we may have to start now in order to have the jail in time. Even with considerable WW a jail will only buy us 2-3 less angry citizens so in some cities it might be better to build a market or a forge to increase the happy faces instead.

Yes, this makes sense. Hopefully, CP will send Mehmed to oblivion and we won't need to worry about some of it.

I'm afraid that gifting cities has absolutely no influence on diplomatic relations (Allthough you could argue that it should have. Go tell Firaxis )

I was afraid you were going to tell me that.
Sounded good though.

 

[Cactus Pete]

CACTUS PETE
SGOTM4W REPORT FOR TURNS 380-384

Busier day than expected, so wasn't able to play much or post here.

Matters have not proceeded as well as anticipated. G got troops ashore and had no choice but to kill them off. H brought several cavalry and an artillery piece north through America to surprise attack. No great harm done, but lost more good units than should have. Uranium pillagers were wiped out – either the RNG was particularly unkind or cavalry have 50% extra against machine guns (H’s cav defeated three of them during the four turns, when the odds should have been against them in every case). Does anyone know anything about that?

I plan to return to the uranium, to go after Thaenae, and to lay some groundwork for conquering the Carthaginians.

Two topics on which advice is solicited:
1) M won’t talk yet, and I can take Gaziantep. Question is . . . Do we want to or do we want to wait and see if we can get something for peace? Also, not clear to me that we don’t want to keep the city, rather than raze it, if we do take it.
2) Our city maintenance is significant, and the Forbidden Palace would reduce it, but I’m not sure where to build it or how much priority to give that. Any thoughts?

Here is my turn log so far (will finish up my set tomorrow):

380 (1730AD): Send transport to learn that Kolhapur is defended by 1 sam, 1 artillery, and 2 cavs . . . load ships to position units for its capture or, hopefully, to soften it up for G
Decide to put off bribing W to adopt FR
Wait for healing before attacking Ankara
Add another machine gun to two uranium pillagers

381: H attacks pillagers on his uranium with only one artillery and three cavalry and defeats both of our machine guns and the infantry unit. He only loses one cavalry. Does cavalry have an advantage over machine guns as well as cannon?
G’s ships skirt our blockade, and head for our coastline, not for Kolhapur. I block their access to our coastline for one more turn and sink one frigate to discourage him
Capture Ankara with loss of one good infantry. Decide to keep city for the time being, thinking I can pop-rush something and gift to W if citizens can’t eat.
Begin moving forces towards Bursa, which now has a machine gun and 4 infantry, and Samsun
Offload units on forest near Kolhapur. City should fall next turn.
M now has artillery; G still has not traded for Combustion

382: Out of the American fog, H attacks Ankara. Our shocked forces resist bravely -- the two infantry (one wounded) on duty in the city destroy 1 artillery piece and 1 catapult -- but H captures and razes Ankara with his remaining cavalry units.
Gandhi attacks a machine gunner guarding our coastline with cavalry and then a grenadier, both from off one of his ships, defeats it (I’m sensing a pattern here), and is able to land 5 cavalry, 1 wounded grenadier, and 1 knight on the tile SW of Hittite. In ignorance I set up to defend against this possibility with a machine gun, when it seems I should have gone with infantry. I will certainly have to spend some money to hold the city. Sunk G’s two remaining frigates (seemed best way to delay future excursions), but left the galleons to return home.
Capture Kolhapur, but heavy losses: 3 cannons and 1 infantry . . . will abandon next turn, as it is 99% Indian.
Set culture slider at 10% and keep science at 0% for one more turn.

383: Gandhi attacks Hittite, but we are prepared, and he looses 2 cavalry and another withdraws before he calls off the assault and goes on a pillaging rampage. I see no choice but to eliminate the remainder of his troops, which will cost him ww, as they are in our territory. . . . guess I should have sunk his ships instead of hoping he’d re-think and head for Kolhapur.
Draft infantry in Bibracte, but comes with only two experience points.
More of H’s cavalry comes out of American fog and two combine to kill a grenadier I had placed on a strategic hill near Samsun, but we are still able to capture and raze Samsun.
W adopts Free Religion for 890.
Set science at 60% -- Artillery in 7 turns.

384: Capture Bursa with the loss of 2 cannons

Here is save: http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/539/Xteam_in_progress.CivWarlordsSave

 

[Frederiksberg]

Uranium pillagers were wiped out – either the RNG was particularly unkind or cavalry have 50% extra against machine guns (H’s cav defeated three of them during the four turns, when the odds should have been against them in every case). Does anyone know anything about that?

I don't know of any bonus for cavalry against machine guns. It's not mentioned in the Civilopedia. But machine guns don't receive a bonus against cavalry only against gunpowder units so a combat II promoted cavalry unit would be even against an unpromoted machine gun. Cavalry should be clear underdogs against infantry though. What may have happened with the pillaging party is that the artillery attack caused collateral damage to the machine guns and left them vulnerable to the cavalry. Maybe we should bring a mix of combat II and pinch infantry in the next pillaging party. They should be able to put up a fight.

1) M won’t talk yet, and I can take Gaziantep. Question is . . . Do we want to or do we want to wait and see if we can get something for peace? Also, not clear to me that we don’t want to keep the city, rather than raze it, if we do take it.

Mehmed can't make peace since he's still a vassal. I don't know why the vassal agreement has not been broken - seems strange. Maybe we should just eliminate him to reduce WW. Isn't Gaziantep more a burden than an asset for our empire. I doubt that we will be able to hold on to the cow tile and the city is likely to be pressured by Madrid that is one of the top 5 culture cities.

2) Our city maintenance is significant, and the Forbidden Palace would reduce it, but I’m not sure where to build it or how much priority to give that. Any thoughts?

Don't see any place where it makes much of a difference to build FP.

I think we are making good progress and when we have artillery we should be able to capture some of Hannibals cities. Note that Washington has closed his borders to Hannibal after he adopted free religion. This means that our Ottoman cities should be quite safe now.

 

[leif erikson]

Matters have not proceeded as well as anticipated. G got troops ashore and had no choice but to kill them off. H brought several cavalry and an artillery piece north through America to surprise attack. No great harm done, but lost more good units than should have. Uranium pillagers were wiped out – either the RNG was particularly unkind or cavalry have 50% extra against machine guns (H’s cav defeated three of them during the four turns, when the odds should have been against them in every case). Does anyone know anything about that?

I think Frederiksberg has this right. The Artillery softened things up and the Machine Gun simply didn't have the HP to make it. The Machine Gun's bonus is against Gunpowder units, so nothing helpful versus Cavalry.

There was probably also some RNG stuff in there too, it is our team curse...

Formation promoted Infantry are probably our best defense against Cavalry, but we shouldn't need too many as the age of Armor is coming!

I plan to return to the uranium, to go after Thaenae, and to lay some groundwork for conquering the Carthaginians.

Discovering Artillery will be a big step forward in that preparation. I think the problem will be getting Gandhi to focus on H's land instead of our? How can we encourage that?

1) M won’t talk yet, and I can take Gaziantep. Question is . . . Do we want to or do we want to wait and see if we can get something for peace? Also, not clear to me that we don’t want to keep the city, rather than raze it, if we do take it.

I read the Civlopedia this morning and found an interesting line under Game Concepts, Vassal States. I think the agreement was formed during peacetime and in that type of agreement, only the Vassal can break it. When it is formed as a result of Capitulation, then it may be broken when the vassal state loses more than half its land area.

May as well take M out and kill the war weariness. I don't see how Gaziantep will be any more than a maintenance hog trying to stand up to Madrid. I think we should raze it and be done with it.

2) Our city maintenance is significant, and the Forbidden Palace would reduce it, but I’m not sure where to build it or how much priority to give that. Any thoughts?

It is interesting to click on the Financial Advisor and roll over the City Maintenance line. Out of 180 GPT maintenance, 111 is distance maintenance. That tells me we need Communism and State Property as soon as possible. This would also reduce our Civic Upkeep from 171 GPT to 157 GPT. Looks like a huge gain to me?

As we do not have further territory we wish to acquire, I think we should consider building the Forbidden Palace in Karakorum or somewhere near there. With a Courthouse, Karakorum is costing 7.55 GPT and the cities around it are at or near 7. It would require 15 turns or a Great Engineer.

I am amazed at the difference in Washington's attitude numbers since he adopted Free Religion. He is closer to Gandhi but the big difference is going from +10 with Hannibal to -2, that is amazing! As W is now Pleased towards Gandhi, perhaps he will gift him some tech too? That would be nice.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I read the Civlopedia this morning and found an interesting line under Game Concepts, Vassal States. I think the agreement was formed during peacetime and in that type of agreement, only the Vassal can break it. When it is formed as a result of Capitulation, then it may be broken when the vassal state loses more than half its land area.

May as well take M out and kill the war weariness. I don't see how Gaziantep will be any more than a maintenance hog trying to stand up to Madrid. I think we should raze it and be done with it. :crazyeye

:

Thanks for the info . Let's get rid of Mehmed!

It is interesting to click on the Financial Advisor and roll over the City Maintenance line. Out of 180 GPT maintenance, 111 is distance maintenance. That tells me we need Communism and State Property as soon as possible. This would also reduce our Civic Upkeep from 171 GPT to 157 GPT. Looks like a huge gain to me?

Good observation . Question now is if we research Communism ourselves or wait and hope that Izzy or Washington gets it so that we can trade for it. Maybe it's a waste to build FP if we want to change to State Property soon anyway thus making the FP ineffective.

I am amazed at the difference in Washington's attitude numbers since he adopted Free Religion. He is closer to Gandhi but the big difference is going from +10 with Hannibal to -2, that is amazing! As W is now Pleased towards Gandhi, perhaps he will gift him some tech too? That would be nice.

Yes, we got more than we bargained for. Washington has cancelled open borders and resource deals with Hannibal thus removing the positive diplomatic modifiers you get for this. Added together with the lost positive religious modifiers we get this huge change in attitude.

 

[leif erikson]

Question now is if we research Communism ourselves or wait and hope that Izzy or Washington gets it so that we can trade for it. Maybe it's a waste to build FP if we want to change to State Property soon anyway thus making the FP ineffective.

I'm leaning towards trying to trade for it. The problem is we're playing catch up with Washington and we're ahead of Izzie. Not sure how long it will be before Izzie either trades or researches it.

Perhaps, once we have Artillery, we should research it if it is not available for trade. It should speed our research once we've made the change, so it seems worth it.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Appreciate the good advice. My decisions are clear: Raze Gaziantep and not build the FP.

Playing now . . .

 

[Cactus Pete]

CACTUS PETE
SGOTM4W REPORT FOR TURNS 380-384

Not a great deal of progress made during the rest of my turn set. May have lost more units than destroyed. No luck helping Gandhi.

385 (1740AD): Carthaginian Golden Age begins
Move culture up to 20%, science down to 50%

386: Ottoman civilization destroyed . . . working on Carthaginian

387: Begin Hermitage in Vienne
Land pillaging party (3 infantry with pinch promotions, 1 mg, and 2 cannons) on uranium near Sicca. (Three artillery pieces are in range of the uranium near Kerkuane, so that one may have to wait until the city itself is put under siege.)
Move culture back to 0% (though we have significant ww now, despite no longer any contribution from war with M), science 60% -- Artillery in 3 turns

388: Pillagers survive artillery attack without losses (and pillage uranium), but more artillery and cavalry approach. Unfortunately reinforcements are a turn away. Bad miscalculation I fear.
H will now trade a bit of gold for peace
Izzie now only minus two with us

389: H brought half his army to bear on our pillagers and wiped them all out. Should have at least had forces close enough for a counterattack to destroyed his weakened units
H now has marines

390 (1750AD): Artillery is mastered. (Set research for Fascism just to proceed.) Upgrade cannon near Thaenae and set science to 0% in preparation for more of same. W won’t trade Electricity for Artillery . . . says he “has his reasons.” That’s a new one to me.

NOTES

There are scattered units moving SE from the Ottoman campaign. The next player can use the military advisor to locate them.

Should we move some workers to Kolhapur and develop it? What to build there?

H has abandoned the sea and concentrated on the land. We will need patience to succeed against him, which may include a cease fire or a peace treaty. He has a considerable army, and we will need to unload many units (certainly including artillery and perhaps machine guns) in multiple locations (such as different tiles adjacent to the city we are attacking or attack two cities at once to divide his attention) to reduce their vulnerability to his artillery and keep them from meeting the same fate as both sets of my pillagers. I would also suggest keeping some amphibious units in reserve to take quick advantage of his weakened units, should he attack our landing party.

Here is the save: http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/539/Xteam__SG004_AD1740.CivWarlordsSave

I will be out of touch until Tuesday. Expect good things to haoppen during my absence.

 

[leif erikson]

Mehmed is gone and we have Artillery!!

Nice work CP!

Roster:
Gator - UP
RRAU - On Deck
Bede
Sanabas
Leif
Frederiksberg
Cactus Pete - just played!

RRAU - How is the coming? Any luck in dealing with the crashes?

Looks to me like we'll have to research Communism to get to State Property.

Time to on it.

 

[rrau]

I'm back in town and it crashed with the device driver message while sitting here with no one on it. I think I need to take it to best buy and get a new graphics card. I wonder how how late they're open tonight?

[edit] Going to grab some supper and then I guess I'll go take it in and see what I can find out.

 

[leif erikson]

Good luck rrau!!

 

[rrau]

Well, they said my computer was fine and it wasn't the graphics driver and it was probably a 'bad install' from a game I have installed........I don't have many, but they suggested removing Sims2, so I did. I'm going to play a huge map test game and see what happens

 

[leif erikson]

Well, they said my computer was fine and it wasn't the graphics driver and it was probably a 'bad install' from a game I have installed........I don't have many, but they suggested removing Sims2, so I did. I'm going to play a huge map test game and see what happens

Hope it works out!

That's what you get for playing anything other than Civ4....

 

[leif erikson]

Roster Change:
RRAU - UP
Bede - On Deck
Sanabas
Leif
Frederiksberg
Cactus Pete
Gator

Hope that game worked out last night rrau.

 

[leif erikson]

Well, they said my computer was fine and it wasn't the graphics driver and it was probably a 'bad install' from a game I have installed........I don't have many, but they suggested removing Sims2, so I did. I'm going to play a huge map test game and see what happens

Just curious, how did it go?

 

[rrau]

It didn't work........Still crashes.

 

[leif erikson]

It didn't work........Still crashes.

I'm sorry to hear that and wish I could help.

I think the best thing to do is to put Brother Bede up and you On Deck to give you some time to sort it out? If you think it will take longer, please let me know.


Updated Roster:
Bede - UP
RRAU - On Deck
Sanabas
Leif
Frederiksberg
Cactus Pete
Gator