SGOTM 04 - Xteam

[leif erikson]

Having slept on this, I can see the possibilities in trading Combustion to Hannibal in order to speed up our own research to Artillery. BTW, Washington has Combustion and he also is a +10 with Hannibal, so I suppose he could also trade it to Hannibal and, so, I wouldn't wait too long to make the trade.

I think the important thing for us in this is that we'll need to build Destroyers in order that we can always have them in pairs, or mutually supporting so that if one of ours gets attacked and sunk, we can attack the wounded attacker.

We have the opportunity to break the Vassal agreement between Mehmed and Hannibal by taking several of Mehmed's cities. If Mehmed loses 50% of the land area while a Vassal, he is freed from the agreement. I think he could become our Vassal.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I think I have a couple of things to put on the todo list now:

1. Use a couple of turns to scout and get an idea of the size and whereabouts of Hannibals navy.
2. Reinforce Istanbul with defensive units. We have a machine gun ready to be moved to Istanbul and I think I can create a galleon chain to Verlaminium (or whatever it's called) that can bring 3 rifles (drafted in Bibracte) down there in about 4 turns.
3. When Istanbul is reinforced we hit the Carthaginian navy sinking as many ships as possible in first turn.
4. Trade Combustion for Physics after a couple of turns. Best case is if we can wait 4 turns and sink a lot of Hannibals frigates before he has a chance to upgrade. Will monitor the trade every turn looking for indications that Hannibal is researching Combustion himself. Anybody have an idea of how likely it is that Washington will trade Combustion to him?
5. If feasible launch an attack on the Ottoman city south of Istanbul when war is declared. I might wait for any attacks on Istanbul first - don't want to capture another city we would have problems defending.
6. If feasible land pillaging units near uranium mines. This can only be done after upgrading units to infantry since our other units would be sitting ducks. Best pillaging force is probably infantry + machine gun + cavalry.

Assembly line is due in 6 turns so we should be able to draft infantry before any troops from Thaenae can reach our cities (provided that we wait 4 turns with the war declaration). If scouting reveals a potential threat from Kolhapur I will reinforce Ningh-hsia somehow and keep destroyers ready for defense.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I think the important thing for us in this is that we'll need to build Destroyers in order that we can always have them in pairs, or mutually supporting so that if one of ours gets attacked and sunk, we can attack the wounded attacker.

Yes, but unless or until H fields a much more formidable navy, pairing shouldn't keep us from maximizing their use as scouts, pillagers, and to reduce city defenses.

We have the opportunity to break the Vassal agreement between Mehmed and Hannibal by taking several of Mehmed's cities. If Mehmed loses 50% of the land area while a Vassal, he is freed from the agreement. I think he could become our Vassal.

In what form would we want M as a vassal?

 

[Cactus Pete]

1. Use a couple of turns to scout and get an idea of the size and whereabouts of Hannibals navy.
2. Reinforce Istanbul with defensive units. We have a machine gun ready to be moved to Istanbul and I think I can create a galleon chain to Verlaminium (or whatever it's called) that can bring 3 rifles (drafted in Bibracte) down there in about 4 turns.
3. When Istanbul is reinforced we trade for Physics and then hit the Carthaginian navy sinking as many ships as possible in first turn.
4. Trade Combustion for Physics after a couple of turns. Best case is if we can wait 4 turns and sink a lot of Hannibals frigates before he has a chance to upgrade. Will monitor the trade every turn looking for indications that Hannibal is researching Combustion himself. Anybody have an idea of how likely it is that Washington will trade Combustion to him? What does H have that W might want?
5. If feasible launch an attack on the Ottoman city south of Istanbul when war is declared. I might wait for any attacks on Istanbul first - don't want to capture another city we would have problems defending. If you get your four turns of peace, you'll be able to scout all the Ottoman cities and know how easy or hard city defense will be.. If feasible land pillaging units near uranium mines. This can only be done after upgrading units to infantry since our other units would be sitting ducks. Best pillaging force is probably infantry + machine gun + cavalry. Bear in mind that x-team and then Gandhi, hopefully, will take over some of the Carthaginain territory in time. Also, is there a Carthaginian city that would be possible and desirable to capture and hold early on?
Assembly line is due in 6 turns so we should be able to draft infantry before any troops from Thaenae can reach our cities (provided that we wait 4 turns with the war declaration). If scouting reveals a potential threat from Kolhapur I will reinforce Ningh-hsia somehow and keep destroyers ready for defense.

Are you planning to suspend science after Assembly Line to upgrade before proceeding to get artillery? That would seem almost necessary.

Would you not want to wait more than 4 turns if circumstances allow it?

 

[Frederiksberg]

Are you planning to suspend science after Assembly Line to upgrade before proceeding to get artillery? That would seem almost necessary.

Would you not want to wait more than 4 turns if circumstances allow it?

Suspending tech for a while will be necessary in order to upgrade our grenadiers to infantry. I would like to wait for as long as possible with the war declaration because we need time to build our armed forces and upgrade.

Bear in mind that x-team and then Gandhi, hopefully, will take over some of the Carthaginain territory in time.

I was thinking about pillaging stuff that can be easily rebuilt. That means leaving villages and towns alone. Pillaging the uranium mines is of course top priority.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Makes sense to me. May the RNG be kind to you.

 

[leif erikson]

Check on that Galleon near Hittite. If it goes north, it may have more troops aboard. Don't know how much damage was done to Gandhi by the first offload. There is also one of H's Frigates bombarding Bombay that we should be able to pick off using the Destroyers near Uppsala.

I think we will need to make some noise in Ottoman territory. We have the troops to do so. I don't think they will stand up long to Artillery, so better to use them imho. Of course, upgrading to Infantry is even better...

Good luck Frederiksberg.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Found a couple of hours this evening so here is the half time report.

We are now at war with Hannibal and Mehmed and so far things are going according to plan.

Turn log:

Pre-turn: Do a little MM'ing - mainly for city growt in celtic cities. Do some scouting:

Bursa: Mach. gun, artillery, 3 rifles. 2 more artillery + 1 grenadier within striking range of Istanbul.
Konya: 3 rifles. One more rifle outside guarding the iron mine.
Ankara: 3 rifles.
Gaziantep: 2 rifles.

Leptis: 2 infantry, 2 SAM, 2 cavalry.
Carthage: 4 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 SAM.
Kerkouane: 3 infantry, 2 frigates, 2 galleons, 1 SAM, 2 cavalry, 1 longbow
Hadrumetum: 6 infantry, 2 SAM, 1 artillery
Sicca: 3 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 SAM. 1 SAM outside guarding uranium mine.
Kolhapur: 2 cavlary, 1 SAM, 1 artillery.

Delhi should be safe. It's defended by a rifle, 4 longbows and a cavalry and Hannibal only has 1 artillery and 1 cavalry - both wounded.

Start establishing galleon chain to Verlamion. Move a few troops and some galleons towards the south coast of our home continent.

1703 AD: Hippo has 3 infantry, 1 SAM. Continue setup of galleon chain. Move destroyers close to Carthage
1706 AD: Galleon chain in place, rifles loaded.
1709 AD: Deliver rifles in Istanbul. Physics deal is still posible and Hannibal have many frigates out in the open... Decide to go for the deal and take out Hannibals navy afterwards! Declare and sink 6 frigates, 1 galleon and 1 caravel. Hannibal still has 2 frigates and 2 galleons in Kerkouane and 1 frigate + 1galleon in Hadrumetum.
1712 AD: The counter attack on Istanbul went well. 2 artillery died and 1 withdrew severely damaged. Used a cannon to kill it off. This means that Mehmeds 3 most powerful units are gone!

I'm very pleased that Mehmeds artillery is gone. This probably means that we can start thinking of attacking the Ottoman cities Konia and Ankara. I got an idea for the Great General that we didn't discuss. If we make him a military instructor in Bibracte our drafted infantry should come out with 3XP instead of only 1XP which makes a difference since we should be able to draft infantry there every 1.5 turns (This city is a monster now. Want some infantry? Just push the button ).

Intermediate save: 1712 AD

I plan to do my 6 remaining turns tomorrow evening.

 

[Bede]

Fortune do indeed favor the bold. Nice job wiping out the Punic navy. After that show of force his remaining fleet will pretty much cower in port from here on in.

I like your idea of a MilInstructor in Bibracte. And it is truly a monster food producer so whipping/drafting infantry out of there is an excellent idea.

With Mehmed's heavy hitters off the board and reinforcements able to cosat down from Celtic lands all looks good for keeping the reinforcements running into the Sick Old Man's territory.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Report reads like one of Caesar's letters to the Senate from Gaul. Keep up the good work.

MI in Bibracte . . . wish I'd thought of that.

In anticipation of your continued success and my turn coming, I repeat my query: In what form would we want M as a vassal (if at all)?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Another thought: Are we better off attacking those Ottoman cities that are only defended by rifles with grenadiers rather than first upgrading them to infantry? The upgrading is expensive (lost gold if they are defeated), and I'm not sure how much it would improve the odds.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Report reads like one of Caesar's letters to the Senate from Gaul. Keep up the good work.

Don't expect any turn logs in latin though .

Another thought: Are we better off attacking those Ottoman cities that are only defended by rifles with grenadiers rather than first upgrading them to infantry? The upgrading is expensive (lost gold if they are defeated), and I'm not sure how much it would improve the odds.

I was thinking of attacking the cities defended by rifles ASAP anyway because if Mehmed has time to install machine guns there we will have a hard time capturing these cities without artillery.

In anticipation of your continued success and my turn coming, I repeat my query: In what form would we want M as a vassal (if at all)?

Why not wipe him out? That would mean no "we yearn to join our motherland" unhappyness. Only reason I see to vassalize is if we want to save some time and concentrate our forces on Hannibal.

 

[leif erikson]

I was thinking of attacking the cities defended by rifles ASAP anyway because if Mehmed has time to install machine guns there we will have a hard time capturing these cities without artillery.

I wish we knew what is inside Bursa for troops?

Konya should fall immediately if it still has only three Rifles in the same way in which you took Bibracte. Ankara in the same way.

Why not wipe him out? That would mean no "we yearn to join our motherland" unhappyness. Only reason I see to vassalize is if we want to save some time and concentrate our forces on Hannibal.

Yes, I agree this would probably be preferable. I was thinking that, after taking Bursa, Konya and Ankara, we might break Mehmed's Vassalage with Hannibal and sign a peace to get Artillery, allowing us to turn off research for a while to upgrade and still move forward in tech? Mehmed could be finished off whenever we want to?

I keep trying to find a way to get Washington into this as well, to weaken him so we can clean him up too. However, he is still +10 with Hannibal. How can we bring that down? If it will help, Washington will give us 2 GPT for a resource, say Sugar?

Good idea on the Military Instructor in Bibracte. I didn't realize that it would help a drafted unit...

How can we put more cultural pressure on Thaenae? Perhaps we should switch Bjorgvin to culture as in 4 turns it will expand and its pop grows in 2 turns and it can work the Gold Hill and get some hammers towards the Trading Post?

May need a Jail in Old Sarai too, looking a bit ugly there and we need it to produce Naval units.

I was very happy to see Delhi intact, Indian and free of foreign units...

Keep up the pressure Frederiksberg. Happy hunting!

 

[Frederiksberg]

I wish we knew what is inside Bursa for troops?

Konya should fall immediately if it still has only three Rifles in the same way in which you took Bibracte. Ankara in the same way.

See my post #488 for info regarding this.

Yes, I agree this would probably be preferable. I was thinking that, after taking Bursa, Konya and Ankara, we might break Mehmed's Vassalage with Hannibal and sign a peace to get Artillery, allowing us to turn off research for a while to upgrade and still move forward in tech? Mehmed could be finished off whenever we want to?

Making a separate peace with Mehmed when he is no more a vassal is certainly worth considering. Particularly since he has a machine gun in Bursa that will cause us trouble if we try to capture it before we have any artillery. My intention is to attack Konya and Ankara first hoping that Mehmed has not had time to put any machine guns there.

May need a Jail in Old Sarai too, looking a bit ugly there and we need it to produce Naval units.

I was thinking the same thing and maybe we should build it now - we probably have enough destroyers for the moment.

 

[leif erikson]

See my post #488 for info regarding this.

I read it last night and then forgot...

I was thinking this morning about how to get Bursa, once Ankara and konya are secured. Seems we would need a couple of ships sent there to bombard the culture down. The most direct way is a landing from Galleons or Transports onto the food tile SW of the city, only one turn of exposure to counters. We'd need Cannons to take down the Machine Gun, but I think it is doable, especially if we have some upgraded units to Infantry by then and he hasn't built too many Artillery.

If we can get those 3 cities, the Vassal agreement should be broken and, perhaps, we can snag Artillery from him?

Success!!

 

[Frederiksberg]

War is going fine allthough a bit slower than expected due to Mehmed discovering Assembly Line. Gandhi settled a city on our side of the strait - I have left it alone for now.

Turn log:

1715 AD: Adjust science slider to 80% to get Assembly line in 1 turn. Do some random bombarding of Carthaginian cities, pillage some fishing nets. Bombard Konya with destroyers.
1718 AD: Mehmed has got Assembly line now and has upgraded his rifles to infantry. Other bad news is that you need two pop to draft one infantry. And the city must be at least size 7. Means that Bibracte can only build one infantry every 3 turns. Military instructor now in Bibracte. Science slider is set to zero. Samsun has one infantry and one rifle. Konya and Ankara has 3 infantry each. Hannibal sent a stack of outdated units to Istanbul to "help" his vassal. I help myself to some promotions by attacking and destroying the stack without any losses. Gandhi lands a settler and a couple of rifles. Maybe we should leave them alone? It would enable Gandhi to get coal.
1721 AD: Upgrade some grenadiers to infantry. Unload two workers near Delhi to help Gandhi get the pillaged mines rebuilt.
1724 AD: More upgrading. Starting to assemble pillaging parties in Ning-hsia.
1727 AD: Capture Konya without losses. Two pillaging parties sail off. An indian fleet of 3 frigates and 3 galleons have left Lahore. Is it heading for Kolhapur?
1730 AD: Pillage uranium mine near Thaenae. Land pillage party near Kerkouane. Another pillage party is heading for Sicca. I'm not sure if it's wise to attack Ankara this turn so I leave this for team discussion. Turn is only half finished.
We are dominating the seas and should be able to make slow progress in the war. We may have a chance of removing Mehmed in the next turn set and Hannibal seems to be unable to do anything else than sit and wait for our attack.

Next player (CP I believe) should be aware of the Indian Fleet near Delhi. We have a couple of destroyers near that could be used to block the way to our cities and maybe persuade Gandhi to attack Kolhapur instead.

The save:
1730 AD

Pics:

 

[leif erikson]

Sounds good Frederiksberg!! Nice job on the pillaging runs.

Thanks for some redemption...

Roster:
Cactus Pete - UP
Gator - On Deck
RRAU
Bede
Sanabas
Leif
Frederiksberg - just played!! (we need to find a shorter nick?)

Try to have a look at the save a bit later.

 

[leif erikson]

Looking at the save, there are a couple of things to think about.
1. I don't know if it is worth it to us, but Washington will change to Free Religion for 860 Gold. He also doesn't have Artillery, which requires 8 turns of our research at 60% atm. It is cheaper to pay the 860 Gold, if we wish it to happen? Unless we can get Mehmed to cough it up...

2. I think we should leave Chittagong alone for now. Let's see what happens?

3. I think we should aggressively pursue Mehmed until we have Ankara and Bursa, if possible.

4. Before we start intense combat with Hannibal, perhaps we should consider building some Jails in at least the key cities. War Weariness is starting to build up in many cities.

Time to sleep on it a while...

 

[Cactus Pete]

My ignorance of how culture works has already become evident, and I’m afraid I need a bit more of an education. I would certainly hope to take Kohlapur during my turn set. Because Gandhi’s cultural borders do not come close to any of that city’s tiles, I don’t understand why there is a possibility of it revolting back to India (and therefore why we should “abandon it to its fate.”). It would seem to me that it is more likely to revolt back to H. Please enlighten me, so that I will understand what to do once I’ve captured it.

Ankara, Samsun, and Gaziantep are also all subject to capture during my set, but all of them are of problematic value due to cultural pressures. I will look to take on M as a vassal and gain tech in return for peace, but questions remain:
1) What techs would make that deal worthwhile to us (M has several that we are lacking)?
2) I’ve never been able to trade a city for anything (only gift them). Is there any way to get something from W or Izzie for M’s neighboring cities that fall into our hands?
3) If 1 & 2 won’t fly, do we want to hang onto the cities (and which ones) or raze them?

I’ve never built RxR’s. Do they accomplish anything besides speeding movement?

“I don't know if it is worth it to us, but Washington will change to Free Religion for 860 Gold. “ Do we want to make that deal?

“I think we should leave Chittagong alone for now. Let's see what happens?”

What seems to be happening is that G is going all out to send reinforcements to the city, though why he has launched a fleet from Delhi (rather than simply sail across from Bombay) puzzles me. What are the consequences of Gandhi not having coal?

Our blockades of G’s cities in the straits are no longer in place. I’m concerned that this may lead to constant troops landing on our side of the straits and that this effort will, in the future, not only necessitate further conflict with G but also distract him from taking over and/or settling Carthaginian territory.

I hope to play some during the day on Thursday, so advice at your earliest convenience would be appreciated.

 

[Frederiksberg]

1. I don't know if it is worth it to us, but Washington will change to Free Religion for 860 Gold.

Good observation. I think we should do the deal unless we need to use the money for some immediate upgrades. 860 Gold corresponds to upgrade of 4 grenadiers.

3. I think we should aggressively pursue Mehmed until we have Ankara and Bursa, if possible.

Getting rid of Mehmed would indeed be nice. Bursa is a problem because it has a machine gun defending and we need artillery to take it out.

4. Before we start intense combat with Hannibal, perhaps we should consider building some Jails in at least the key cities. War Weariness is starting to build up in many cities.

War weariness will go down when Mehmed is gone - remember that WW is calculated per civ. We could start building jails in cities with high pop and low production. High production cities can build jails when the need becomes evident. Theatres combined with the culture slider migth be more efficient though.

My ignorance of how culture works has already become evident, and I’m afraid I need a bit more of an education. I would certainly hope to take Kohlapur during my turn set. Because Gandhi’s cultural borders do not come close to any of that city’s tiles, I don’t understand why there is a possibility of it revolting back to India (and therefore why we should “abandon it to its fate.&#8221. It would seem to me that it is more likely to revolt back to H. Please enlighten me, so that I will understand what to do once I’ve captured it.

When you have captured the city put the cursor over the culture bar and you will see the probability of a revolt. Indian culture will still be there due to the indian population. The less military inside the city the greater chance of revolt.

1) What techs would make that deal worthwhile to us (M has several that we are lacking)?

My tech priorities would be 1. Artillery 2. Electricity (brings us closer to tanks) and 3. Communism (State Property, spies)

2) I’ve never been able to trade a city for anything (only gift them). Is there any way to get something from W or Izzie for M’s neighboring cities that fall into our hands?

Don't expect to get anything at all.

3) If 1 & 2 won’t fly, do we want to hang onto the cities (and which ones) or raze them?

Bursa and maybe Ankara we could hang on to. The remaining cities should be razed.

I’ve never built RxR’s. Do they accomplish anything besides speeding movement?

Mines yield an extra hammer when railroads are built there.

“I don't know if it is worth it to us, but Washington will change to Free Religion for 860 Gold. “ Do we want to make that deal?

I think we do but maybe not immediately if you estimate that you need some more upgrades ASAP. With free religion there is much less chance that Washington will be drawn into the current wars and his relationship with Gandhi will improve.

“I think we should leave Chittagong alone for now. Let's see what happens?”

What seems to be happening is that G is going all out to send reinforcements to the city, though why he has launched a fleet from Delhi (rather than simply sail across from Bombay) puzzles me. What are the consequences of Gandhi not having coal?

Fleet came from further up north. I was hoping we could deflect it in the direction of Kolhapur by blocking with our destroyers. Coal enables coal plants and thus increased output from factories. Would speed up building the space ship.

Our blockades of G’s cities in the straits are no longer in place. I’m concerned that this may lead to constant troops landing on our side of the straits and that this effort will, in the future, not only necessitate further conflict with G but also distract him from taking over and/or settling Carthaginian territory.

There is only one indian ship in the strait (galleon outside Chittagong). We can deal with that when we know what is going on with the fleet of 6 ships outside Delhi. I'm not convinced that Gandhi will use Chittagong for offense. Would it hurt to wait a little and see what happens? We can reinstall the blockade as soon as the Indian fleet outside Delhi is dealt with.