SGOTM 04 - Xteam

[Bede]

I agree that Flight will be very useful at some point - for instance for pillaging Gandhis uranium. But since we are now engaged in an offensive war I think we are better off getting Industrialization and tanks first. They will really help with this since they can capture cities while bombers can only pillage and reduce cultural defenses.

Fighters and bombers are very powerful on this kind of map.

As an example fighters on a carrier off the Punic coast would strafe down the defenders at Thapsus while the ground troops get healthy enough to make the assault. Weaken the defenders enough and cultural defenses don't matter. Fighters in this game are even more powerful than the artillery in C3C. as they can attack from out of range of defenders. They aren't lethal like the bombers in C3C but weaken garrison troops ehough so that they don't sally forth while the groundpounders get their boots in the right place. You will take some hits from SAM but they usually don't kill the fighter and the plane will heal up pretty quickly on a carrier in neutral waters.

Were this a continental map I would agree with you that tanks are the tool as trying to reach deep into enemy territory with aircraft puts them at risk as they are town based, but any inland city on this map is at least two turns from the coast which means the tanks are just as vulnerable to counterattack as infantry during the positioning phase while carriers are offshore and can launch strafing runs from neutral waters and reach an inland cities. And as long as Hannibal is without oil.....

 

[Frederiksberg]

I actually didn't know that bombers could cause collateral damage. Or maybe I just forgot - haven't played a modern war since my very first games of Civ4.

After checking the Civilopedia I'm still not fully convinced that getting bombers before tanks is the best choice in our current situation. Fighters don't cause collateral damage so they are primarily useful for reconnaissance and pillaging. Bombers don't fit on a carrier - they need to be based in a city. The Civilopedia states that SAM Infantry has a 40% chance of intercepting aircraft. I'm not sure if intercept and kill is the same. Seems that bombers would not be completely safe though.

I'm not that worried about the safety of tanks. At strength 28 they should be pretty hard to handle for Hannibals strength 18 artillery and they move fast. We could even throw in some marines in our stacks (also enabled by Industrialization) and do some amphibious assaults. Marines have 50% against artillery and should be able to stop any counter attacking. Industrialization also opens for building battleships which would come in handy in case Washington is drawn into the conflict.

 

[leif erikson]

I actually didn't know that bombers could cause collateral damage. Or maybe I just forgot - haven't played a modern war since my very first games of Civ4.

Yes, they can take down a stack pretty quickly and are very useful. Once every unit in the stack reaches 50% strength, the game won't let you bombard the stack any longer. No lethal bombardment.

Fighters don't cause collateral damage so they are primarily useful for reconnaissance and pillaging. Bombers don't fit on a carrier - they need to be based in a city. The Civilopedia states that SAM Infantry has a 40% chance of intercepting aircraft. I'm not sure if intercept and kill is the same. Seems that bombers would not be completely safe though.

Interception is not the same as killing. In my limited experience, you are much more likely to have a percentage of strength taken away than a clean kill. That usually happens with other aircraft.

I'm not that worried about the safety of tanks. At strength 28 they should be pretty hard to handle for Hannibals strength 18 artillery and they move fast. We could even throw in some marines in our stacks (also enabled by Industrialization) and do some amphibious assaults. Marines have 50% against artillery and should be able to stop any counter attacking. Industrialization also opens for building battleships which would come in handy in case Washington is drawn into the conflict.

I think it is worth the 6 turns to get Flight for recon and pillaging needs. Washington could be missing a few resources before we attack him, and loss of oil would be particularly nice!

Then no matter what we do, it is on to Electricity, although it would be nice to either trade for it or get it for peace, and then we'll need to decide on Industrialization or Radio. Looking at where we are, I'm really leaning towards Tanks, Marines and Battleships first.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I think it is worth the 6 turns to get Flight for recon and pillaging needs. Washington could be missing a few resources before we attack him, and loss of oil would be particularly nice!

I'm not sure that I follow this . Are we about to attack Washington in 6 turns? Otherwise Flight could wait until after Industrialization.

Then no matter what we do, it is on to Electricity, although it would be nice to either trade for it or get it for peace, and then we'll need to decide on Industrialization or Radio. Looking at where we are, I'm really leaning towards Tanks, Marines and Battleships first.

There is a chance that we might be able to trade Artillery and Flight for Electricity but it's a bit of gamble since Washington may not want to trade at all (he won't trade right now) and he might have researched one of these techs himself before we are done with Flight. Bede may have an idea of how close we are to getting a tech for peace...

 

[leif erikson]

I'm not sure that I follow this . Are we about to attack Washington in 6 turns? Otherwise Flight could wait until after Industrialization.

One of our problems has been keeping H's Uranium pillaged. Flight will allow us to do so. When the time comes to visit W, we could be pillaging his oil as we are attacking his first city to keep him from building Tanks and Aircraft beyond whatever he may have. I don't think we will successfully take W out until we have Tanks for sure. Bombers would be nice as well, but we will need to see where we are when that time comes.

There is a chance that we might be able to trade Artillery and Flight for Electricity but it's a bit of gamble since Washington may not want to trade at all (he won't trade right now) and he might have researched one of these techs himself before we are done with Flight. Bede may have an idea of how close we are to getting a tech for peace...

Not sure we want to give W Flight as he will be able to counter any pillaging we might try to accomplish. Perhaps our best bet will be a peace deal, if H will have it. Not looking at the save atm. Getting myself in trouble again...

 

[Frederiksberg]

One of our problems has been keeping H's Uranium pillaged. Flight will allow us to do so.

With Hannibals fleet gone the uranium is less of a problem since he has no frigates he can upgrade to destroyers. Is it really worth delaying Industrialization by 6 turns for this purpose? What do we stand to gain compared to researching Electricity - Industrialization - Flight - Radio?

 

[leif erikson]

With Hannibals fleet gone the uranium is less of a problem since he has no frigates he can upgrade to destroyers. Is it really worth delaying Industrialization by 6 turns for this purpose? What do we stand to gain compared to researching Electricity - Industrialization - Flight - Radio?

That is fine with me. It makes sense to follow this path.

 

[Frederiksberg]

One of our problems has been keeping H's Uranium pillaged. Flight will allow us to do so.

With Hannibals fleet gone the uranium is less of a problem since he has no frigates he can upgrade to destroyers. Is it really worth delaying Industrialization by 6 turns for this purpose? What do we stand to gain compared to researching Electricity - Industrialization - Flight - Radio? (Electricity - Flight - Radio - Industrialization would still be an option depending on the war progress).

 

[Bede]

There is no tech on offer for peace with Hannibal.

As there are no beakers invested in Flight yet there will be no time lost in starting down the Industry path.

Washington is willing to trade Electricity but we don't have enough to offer him yet. Artillery and cash won't do it.

Sorry to take so long to get this done, I'll do better next time.

Posting tonight.

 

[Frederiksberg]

That is fine with me. It makes sense to follow this path.

Well, I'm not sure myself. Bede definitely has a case for bombers as well - that's why I'm asking questions .

 

[leif erikson]

Well, I'm not sure myself. Bede definitely has a case for bombers as well - that's why I'm asking questions .

I'm not so sure either.

I think the case for Flight first sort of depends upon what we expect from W. If we think that H will become W's Vassal, then I think the case for Flight is pretty strong as we may need the Fighters and Carrier to pillage W's Oil and whatever else we think is necessary, say Coal or Lux resources.

If we think H will remain separate from W, then the case is strongest for Tanks first and then aircraft as we won't be messing with W until H is gone?

Looking at it in this light, perhaps Flight is a stronger initial alternative?

Nothing like flip-flopping first thing in the morning!!

 

[Frederiksberg]

Washington is willing to trade Electricity but we don't have enough to offer him yet. Artillery and cash won't do it.

That might change things. If we have the money for 100% research of Flight we could gamble and research it with the purpose of trading Artillery + Flight for Electricity. Maybe it's better to wait for the save before we continue these discussions .

 

[Cactus Pete]

"Maybe it's better to wait for the save before we continue these discussions."

Agree with that (and would add that my ignorance of modern warfare is similar to Frederiksberg's).

I'm particularly interested to see if G's ironclad reaches Kolhapur. If so, then capturing (or razing, though that seems risky, as H is lilkely to re-settle while we are at peace) the Carthaginian city nearest it in hopes that G will go there next would be a high priority. Taking down another Carthaginian city would also increase the likelihood of a tech-for-peace trade.

 

[Bede]

Here is the save

The army is poised to move foward against what looks to be a lightly defended Thapsus.

Now for the unexpected development.

Gandhi landed three boatloads of troops at Hittite, and I ceded him the town. Otherwise he would have pillaged it to a fare thee well. And I put three workers in his path so he can improve the lands around to his satisfaction.

Now is as good a time as any to begin our phased withdrawal from the home island. Gandhi isn't interested in any place else.

This was one of times to sin bravely and beg forgiveness later. Hittite was one of our less developed industrial towns though it did have decent commercial infrastructure, which hopefully survived the change of state.

The diplomatic stiuation is getting cloudier. Washington has opened his borders to Hannibal after adopting Carthage's religion and Organized Religion. Washington isn't tempted by Artillery and Communism and all our money for Electricity. Hannibal will give up a world map for ten turns of peace.

the changing of the guard at Hittite will complicate ourlife a little bit but it is easy enough to keep an eyeon the town and should Gandhi start stuffing it with troops we can go pound on them.

The treasury is not in as good a shape as I had hoped. I had to upgrade some really obsolete troops right there at the end to make sure I had enough to defend against any Indian excursions. He is fielding Cavalry, rifles and one rifle attached to a general. I killed one Cavalryman and a Grenadier just to keep him bottled up in Hittite.

There is a shipping network in place to serve Carthage from Old Sarai, another needs to be put in place along the other island.

 

[leif erikson]

Nice work Brother Bede.

Sounds like things are getting interesting...

Roster:
RRAU - UP
Sanabas - On Deck
Leif
Frederiksberg
Cactus Pete
Gator
Bede - Just played.

Got that new 'puter all tuned up and ready rrau?

 

[rrau]

Got it and so far.......no crashes on the new computer

I love bombers, but we don't get them with flight, we just get fighters. Which way do we go on tech? And are we going to keep Ghandi in Hittite or let him have more of the home island?

 

[leif erikson]

Got it and so far.......no crashes on the new computer

I love bombers, but we don't get them with flight, we just get fighters. Which way do we go on tech? And are we going to keep Ghandi in Hittite or let him have more of the home island?

Both of these questions are now up for discussion. I'm headed to have a look at the save now.

What do you think?

 

[leif erikson]

OK, I'll take a shot at this and see what you all think.

Washington. There are at least two ways to handle W. We can choose to bring him closer to us or allow him to drift away to H and G's side.
He will adopt Free Religion for Communism. This will bring him closer to us. This would allow us more time to take out H without W's intervention, imho, as W's relations with H will become worse as it did last time we tried this. It will be interesting to see how long the effect of this lasts and how deeply it would divide H and W. In this case, I think that Industrialism is probably the best course to follow.
If we allow things to stand as they are, then I think W will become closer to H and at some point H will become W's Vassal, bringing us into war with W. In this scenario, I think that Flight first will be more useful in helping us keep W from having advanced units through the pillaging of his only Oil supply and Uranium supply.

Izzie has two sources of Oil but it seems that only one is connected, according to the latest map data we have. She could provide supply to whoever will bid for it. Gandhi appear to be without Oil as well.

I think we need some breathing space in Carthage and should try to take Thapsus. Instead of marching to it we could use Transports to land a force on the Pig Hill southeast of the city via the lake. There are units that he could use as a counterattack force in Sicca, including 3 Cavalry, 2 Artillery, 2 Marines and a SAM Infantry.

In our current situation, I think we should hold Gandhi where he is and, perhaps, counterattack him down to a Rifle in Hittite. If we think we should give up land, the northern cities would be best to let go of first (Uppsala, Tartar and Copper Mountain. However, he will prolly want to go south and east, but we'll see.

EDIT - BTW - Gandhi has been steadily gaining in power over the last 30 turns or so. He is third in power behind us and W.

Time to sleep on it a bit.

 

[Cactus Pete]

After a look at the save, a few comments (not prioritized):

Draft a unit in Bibracte.

Switch production in NS from infantry to artillery, so that we can more quickly wound multiple units in Hittite and lessen the likelihood of their pillaging.

Agree with leif that we should move (with deliberate speed) to reduce the garrsion in Hittite, and I would also suggest that we move some destroyers to prevent reinforcements from landing.

W has aluminum, which means he has Industrialism.

One advantage of switching to Flight is that it leaves open the gains inherent in a trade for Electricity.

Alternatively: What about taking science to 0% until we capture Thapsus to see if extra gold will satisfy W in a trade for Electricity and to allow a peace for electricity trade to remain an option. If it doesn't happen, we can make up the science lost by spending the treasury's new gold for a few turns.

The pig hill by Thapsus is defended by an artillery piece (and a badly wounded marine) that we have no amphibious units healed sufficiently to take out. Thus, I'd suggest advancing several artillery pieces with only a few infantry (say, 4 artillery and 3 gunpowder infantry) towards that hill with the intent to take it the next turn. We would also load 4 units (thinking 3 infantry and 1 artillery) onto the transport now 3 tiles S of Leptis with the intent to unload at least some of them on the hill next turn. By putting healed units on board the transport this turn (but necessarily keeping the transport inside Carthage) we would have mulptiple options available, depending upon what H does and what we find in Thapsus.

Let's kill the marine NW or Carthage (easier outside a city than inside), and perhaps leave our weakened unit defended by only one healed unit in order to invite H to direct some of his forces there.

By bombarding Sicca and other cities with our destroyers, we may be able to minimize reinforcement being sent toward Thapsus.

Does it make sense to build factories in cities that we will in time let India have? What is the probability that factories would remain after he takes over the cities, and does the method of take over make any difference?

 

[Frederiksberg]

Haven't had time to check the save yet .

I like CP's idea of setting science to 0% for a while. That will increase our chances of trading for Electricity. Whether we should prefer Electricity-Industrialization first or Electricity-Flight-Radio first is still unclear to me. I am leaning towards Industrialization with the intention of attacking on land with tanks and amphibious with marines and infantry. On the other hand infantry with air support (bombers) might also do the trick. Still looking for a killer argument that could settle this dispute....

One word of caution. We shouldn't give away cities to Gandhi too fast because it will increase his WW. Does anyone know if spies would enable us to monitor his WW?