SGOTM 04 - Xteam

leif erikson · May 20, 2007

Frederiksberg said:
I like CP's idea of setting science to 0% for a while. That will increase our chances of trading for Electricity. Whether we should prefer Electricity-Industrialization first or Electricity-Flight-Radio first is still unclear to me. I am leaning towards Industrialization with the intention of attacking on land with tanks and amphibious with marines and infantry. On the other hand infantry with air support (bombers) might also do the trick. Still looking for a killer argument that could settle this dispute....

I don't know if there is a "killer" argument. If H becomes W's vassal while we are fighting H, we will be at war with W. The question then is how do we hold W back from kicking our butts and the only answer I can come to is by pillaging his Oil and Uranium to keep him from building Tanks and Aircraft. His supply lines are quite a bit shorter than ours and so he can have those units there before we can. Additionally, he could have Bombers while we are getting Tanks as he is ahead in tech. Beyond this, I can't think of any reason why we shouldn't go straight for Industrialization and the reasons you have stated. I would not say I wouldn't go along with what you think, I just offer other reasons to see whether that has any impact on your thoughts.

What do you think of the idea of getting W to adopt Free Religion? Will it help prolonge him from taking H as a Vassal or... :rolleyes:

Frederiksberg said:
One word of caution. We shouldn't give away cities to Gandhi too fast because it will increase his WW. Does anyone know if spies would enable us to monitor his WW?

I just checked an old WOTM save and Spies give us access to the city screen, including the happiness area that tells us how many unhappy faces and why. So we should be able to track Gandhi's War Weariness by using Spies.

Bede · May 20, 2007

I completely missed that lake and the access to it through Carthage, good catch!

I set the research to crawling down the path to Electricity when it became clear that Washington wouldn't trade it for anything. Accumulate some more beakers and see if he will bend a little, then move on to Industrialization.

And Fred is right about the spies, unfortunately I did not start Scotland Yard anywhere.

I have troops boot scooting through Washington's land when I couldn't find transport room, no sign of 'Murrican tanks yet, he has only had Industrialization for a turn or two at most anyway, and it will take him a while to build some, no upgrades for that one.

Cactus Pete · May 20, 2007

How much does our superior power reduce the chances of W accepting H as a vassal?

Doesn't H have to be reduced to some percentage of W's land (or population, or both) before he will ask to become a vassal?

If the war with H goes very well, then those two questions become increasingly relevant. The answers would affect both the choice of bribing W to revolt to Free Religion and the choice to continue attacking H at least until we can get a tech for peace. (Am I not correct that we would have to weaken H further before the vassal problem arises?)

Also, I'm reluctant to give away much to G before W is no longer capable of "kicking our butts."

We need to monitor any Carthaginian troop movement through America toward former Ottoman territoy.

Best to kill off G's troops inside Hittite, rather than in our territory, so his ww is minimized.

rrau · May 21, 2007

Guys, I'm tired tonight, so I won't play until tomorrow night. It sounds like the plan is to head towards industrialism, turn down research and try to buy electricity and limit G's Hittite troops while whittiling away at H.

leif erikson · May 22, 2007

rrau said:
Guys, I'm tired tonight, so I won't play until tomorrow night. It sounds like the plan is to head towards industrialism, turn down research and try to buy electricity and limit G's Hittite troops while whittiling away at H.

It sounds like where we are? I'm not sure any of us know how best to play this. May have to fly by the seat of your pants for a while?

Cactus Pete said:
How much does our superior power reduce the chances of W accepting H as a vassal?

Doesn't H have to be reduced to some percentage of W's land (or population, or both) before he will ask to become a vassal?

I wish I could give you a definitive answer. :crazyeye:

From several recent games, it seems that the magic number is 3 to 5 cities remaining for a civ to Vassalize to another. I'm unsure how the power ratings played into that. I was allied with another civ and the enemy capitulated to my ally when he had 5 cities remaining. In another war, I was the sole combatant and the civ I was attacking became another's Vassal when they had 3 cities remaining. In both cases, the civ being attacked had lost significantly in power through the capture of cities and the destruction of their military.

Don't know if that helps?

Cactus Pete said:
Also, I'm reluctant to give away much to G before W is no longer capable of "kicking our butts."

Best to kill off G's troops inside Hittite, rather than in our territory, so his ww is minimized.

I do agree with you on this. If we can get some spies, then we could check on how the capture of our cities benefits or hurts Gandhi. There is probably an optimal rate that we can bleed them to him that will allow him to gain more than he loses? :crazyeye:

Good luck rrau! :thumbsup:

rrau · May 22, 2007

I can't win for losing..........The HOF mod causes Civ4 to crash on Vista.

:wallbash:

I'm thinking it has something to do with Vista's weird file structures.

[edit] going to HOF forum to see if this is a known problem or if the Civ gods just hate me

[edit2] Apparently I have to patch the original civ4 by hand....off to try that

[edit 3] :blush:

I forgot to patch warlords to v 2.08

leif erikson · May 22, 2007

rrau said:
[edit 3] I forgot to patch warlords to v 2.08

The only important question is, Do you have it working?

It sounds like things are now hunky dory?

But the problems begin when you press enter... :rolleyes:

Now, a real Good Luck! :please:

rrau · May 23, 2007

>>>THE SAVE<<<

1780ad (0) Drafted unit in Bicitra. Switches production in NS from infantry to art. Research to 0.

1782ad (1) No deal for electricity. Move troops.

1784ad (2) No deal for electricity. Position troops for attack.

1786ad (3) Thinned Hittite troops and killed G's military leader. Captured Thapus without loss of troops, but only have 2 in the town. Might lose it IBT. Still no deal for electricity.

1788ad (4) Kept Thapus by the skin of our teeth. Reinforced it. Took out one of the 2 remaining calvalry in Hittite. Still no deal for electricity.

1790ad (5) Still no deal for electricity.

1792ad (6) Still no deal for electricity.

1794ad (7) Hannibal completed Apollo program - I think he needs to be completely eliminated now. Still no deal for electricity.

1796ad (8) Still no deal for electricity

1798ad (9) Finally bought electricity........Probably would have been faster to research it. Start on industrialism. Also noticed that Roosevelt now knows Rocketry so is probably working on Apollo.

1800ad (10) Mis-clicked and separated artillary stack from infantry

1802ad (11) Lost 1 artillary in the inter turn. H moved a stack into the space between the artillary and the infantry. Hurt them with artillary then killed them with the infantry. Lost most artillary, but preferred to take the troops out while they weren't behind city walls with defense bo

1804ad (12) Moving troops

1806ad (13) Carthage is undergoing an American revolt (has been making culture). Moving troops.

1808ad (14) Captured Kurkuoane. Stop here for team input because Hannibal will capitulate to us for peace. I'm not sure if we can take on America with her tanks if he becomes there vassal.

rrau · May 23, 2007

Spoiler :

rrau · May 23, 2007

Spoiler :

Cactus Pete · May 23, 2007

Looking quickly at the save . . .

Taking H as our vassal at this point seems counterproductive to our long-range goals, so would be inclined to take the chance that W will not accept him.

Having gone this far, I would like to gain H's productive cities and then get a tech(s) for peace. This would mean not capturing Tacape and leaving it, perhaps only it, to H. The troops now attacking Tacape might best be moved on toward Utica.

Rrau, do you know what is in Utica?

Let's trade pigs for gold with Izzie.

Let's get some tranports in position to be useful. In particular, move one (with a destroyer escort or two) to pick up our amphibious infantry. They are always subject to attack and/or collateral damage when operating on land. No need to take that chance.

What happened to our Hittite workers Bede let G have? The gems still haven't been mined.

leif erikson · May 23, 2007

I agree with CP, I don't think we want H as our Vassal.

However, H is now in the prime to become someone's Vassal. If we can do it, we should try to take as many cities as possible in the next attack. That won't be easy, I know. I think that with the loss of another city he will seek to become a Vassal to someone. That will probably be W as they are "Brothers and Sister of Faith".

W doesn't have Coal, so he will be without Power necessary to increase his production capability.

I'm not so sure we want to build Scotland Yard in our old core. If we give it up, we should think about building it in the new core, former Celt area.

A Great Person is due in Bibracte in 9 turns. Should it be an Artist, we may want to set off a Culture Bomb in either Carthage or Thapsus?

Agree with CP on trade.

Don't know where those workers went near Hittite. I have a feeling our troops near the city is keeping G from using them.

Cactus Pete · May 23, 2007

"However, H is now in the prime to become someone's Vassal. If we can do it, we should try to take as many cities as possible in the next attack. That won't be easy, I know. I think that with the loss of another city he will seek to become a Vassal to someone. That will probably be W as they are "Brothers and Sister of Faith"."

If Utica is not well defended, it would seem possible that we could take H's three good cities out on the same turn (though certainly not for a few turns), leaving little for W to gain. At that point we would try to trade peace for tech(s). I'm thinking Gandhi would be better off if H became W's vassal than ours.

Wouldn't our machine guns now be more useful in Carthaginian (or even Ottoman) territory than in ours?

Once H is, hopefully, dispensed with, what about putting much of our hammer production into science in order to get caught up in tech?

Artillery next out of NS.

rrau · May 23, 2007

I think Utica has about 4 infantry, 2 sams and a marine........or it did about 3 or 4 turns ago.

Maybe now's a good time to bribe W to change to Free Religion?

leif erikson · May 23, 2007

Cactus Pete said:
If Utica is not well defended, it would seem possible that we could take H's three good cities out on the same turn (though certainly not for a few turns), leaving little for W to gain. At that point we would try to trade peace for tech(s). I'm thinking Gandhi would be better off if H became W's vassal than ours.

If we can grab all three cities in the same turn, before we press the turn change button, we need to have made some sort of "arrangement" with H. If we are at war when the turn changes and H becomes W's Vassal, we will be at war with W.

When I checked the save this morning, H was not going to give us anything for peace. All he wanted was a Cease Fire and to Capitulate. It will be interesting to see if we can grab anything from him? Radio would be nice indeed, for Bombers.

Cactus Pete said:
Once H is, hopefully, dispensed with, what about putting much of our hammer production into science in order to get caught up in tech?

This is fine by me. I would keep producing Tanks and Artillery in the cities with Military Academies or in New Sarai. We'll be needing them... :mischief:

rrau said:
Maybe now's a good time to bribe W to change to Free Religion?

I think it is worth the gamble. Haven't checked to see what bait you can use to get him to switch. I think that no matter what we do, when the next city falls, H will become someone's Vassal just because he is so anxious to become ours. :rolleyes:

Good luck rrau!! :high5:

Cactus Pete · May 23, 2007

"I think that no matter what we do, when the next city falls, H will become someone's Vassal just because he is so anxious to become ours."

At the least, that is sufficiently likely that we should act like it is going to happen. I think that means waiting to take three cities at once. Let's promote the badly wounded artillery piece near Kerkuoane to a red cross next turn, get several transports to Kerkouane and Hadrumetum (one of them containing the troops available in Beshbalik), put the red cross and three healing units on one transport, sail those 4 units plus the amphibious grenadiers into position between Utica and Sicca, move the healthy ground units near Kerkouane and Tacape toward Utica, and attack all three cities simultaneously as soon as we can.

Also, we should get some more workers transported to Carthaginian territory to chop a lighthouse in Lepsis and build RxRs.

rrau · May 23, 2007

>>>THE SAVE<<<

1808ad cont (14) Switch Scotland yard to Durnovaria. Bribe W to switch to Free Religion for 1100g. Sell pigs to Isabella.

1810ad (15) We made it without H becoming anyone's Vassal. Moving troops.

1811ad (16) Thapus is in a Carthaginian revolt now. Moving troops.

1812ad (17) Less troops in Utica than I remember. Might be able to set up a triple strike, but probably not within my turnset.

1813ad (18) Moving troops.

1814ad (19) Moving troops.

1815ad (20) We got a great engineer - He can lightbulb some more on industrialism or build us West point somewhere. Troops set up for a triple attack next turn...... Maybe even a quadruple to totally eliminate him.......I was sooooo tempted to play 21 turns and see how the battle I set up went.

Spoiler :

Cactus Pete · May 24, 2007

Even after we move several infantry near Utica toward Sicca, we are two turns from being able to capture Sicca and, of course, should wait to do that.

If we also take Tacape (and eliminate H), I believe that would significantly reduce tech trading among civs for the remainder of the game. Unless I'm missing something, that would not be good for us or for Gandhi.

When we negotiate for peace with H, would we want him to adopt Free Religion, or would that now make it more likely for him to become W's vassal (and does that make any difference at this point)?

Is Nationhood still the optimal civic for us? We have considerable war weariness now, but would changing be worth three turns of lost diminished production and research? This turn would be the time to revolt if we are going to do it, and we could get out of Police State too in the same number of turns. (If we want to revolt back during our next war, the loss of production and research for three -- or even six -- turns might no longer be of much concern.)

Is it not about time to let G have Upsalla?

leif erikson · May 24, 2007

Good work rrau!! :high5:

Looks like we can soon grab those 3 cities.

Roster:
Sanabas - UP
Frederiksberg - On Deck
Leif
Cactus Pete
Gator
Bede
RRAU - just played! :hatsoff:

I've changed the roster a bit as I must work through Memorial Day Weekend here and will not have a chance to play. As we haven't heard from Sanabas, I expect we'll be changing the roster tomorrow to put Frederiksberg up. Please let me know if that is OK with you?

I think the Great Engineer would be well used to complete Scotland Yard. Lightbulbing will save a turn, perhaps two?

More later, got to run. :rolleyes:

Frederiksberg · May 24, 2007

I can play sometime during the weekend.

SGOTM 04 - Xteam

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