SGOTM 04 - Xteam

Frederiksberg · Jun 2, 2007

leif erikson said:
Using Bombers, it is relatively easy to take a city with Infantry right off the Transports. Thought about doing that in the next couple of turns with Seattle and Boston.

I think we have very few amphibious infantry left - are you sure you have enough on the transports? And are they all amphibious?

leif erikson said:
My biggest concern with WW is where we are trying to build Three Gorges Dam. So many citizens are revolting it will never be completed!!

That's why we need peace or cease fire soon. That will give us some time to prepare for the final blow. (And maybe build Mt. Rushmore + some jails).

I'll try to go after W's Navy and, if G is reasonably free of WW, his as well. That means building more ships, no problem there except the WW.

Remember that if you kill Indian units within Indian cultural borders it doesn't increase WW for Gandhi.

Bede · Jun 2, 2007

I really don't see any need to change civics. The war weariness can managed and if it costs a turn or two on Computers, no harm done, unless there is someone out there that we can count on to ship it to Gandhi.

That remains the sticking point - how to research stuff and get it into Mahatma's hands, that and getting him to take the open cities we have offered him.

Sounds like the war with Washington proceeds apace, and with enough bombing runs you can indeed capture a town using Infantry without the amphib promotion.

leif erikson · Jun 2, 2007

Bede said:
Sounds like the war with Washington proceeds apace, and with enough bombing runs you can indeed capture a town using Infantry without the amphib promotion.

Yup, that's how I took Washington. Infantry, without the Amphibious promotion, right off the Transports and lost one Artillery unit. This happened after a bombing run of six Bombers. :hammer:

EDIT - starting up to finish the set.

leif erikson · Jun 2, 2007

Finished the turn set. We have captured Seattle and Boston. Washington is willing to talk but no tech for peace. We need to decide about what we want to do.

<<< The Save >>>

The Turn Log (part 1 - too many screenies)
Reload the save.
Increase the research slider to 70%.
Move some units on the “wall” near Hittite.
Go through and MM cities to keep from losing population.
The cities that cannot stop food loss include:
Verlamion, Camulodunum, Istanbul, Konya, Kerkouane, Haithabu, Old Sarai, Turfan and Samarquand.
Change Nidaros production to a Work Boat.
Airlift a Gunship from Tolosa to Washington.
Move Amphibious Infantry from near Philly to Seattle area and attack the Tank stack after Bombarding Seattle down to 0%.
Our best odds on attacking a Tank are 65%. So we wake a Bomber that is healing in Washington and strike the stack, along with the second one and now all units in the stack are at 50% strength.
Our odds are now 86.9, so we attack.
Infantry attacks a Tank and kills him, now 3.2/20.
Infantry attacks Tank and kills him, now 11.6/20.
Infantry attacks SEAL and kills him, now 9.6/20.
Infantry attacks SEAL and kills him flawlessly! He did not have the Amphibious promo?
Infantry attacks a Cavalry and kills him, now 13.2/20.
That leaves only a SAM Inf. on the hill and we are out of units.
Move the Transports out of American waters and set to heal.

Begin movement of Artillery and Infantry towards Seattle.
Six Artillery, four Infantry and a SAM Inf NW headed for Seattle. They can be joined by a Tank and two Gunships next turn, after they heal.

On to Naval battles.
Outside of New York, a Battleship attacks an American Destroyer and sinks it, now 14.4/40. Returns to New York to heal.
Near Boston, a Destroyer attacks an American Destroyer and sinks, leaving the American at 11.1/30. A second Destroyer attacks and sinks him flawlessly.
Near Kerkouane, attacks an American Destroyer with one of ours and we sink without damaging the American.

Move the fleet near Washington to Boston and begin bombardment of cultural defense.

IBT
Computers comes in, start researching Robotics as I think Facism will come to us as the tech Washington will trade for peace, I hope.
Bibracte Tank => Tank.
Indian Cavalry destroy another Cottage! :rolleyes:

Washington completes another SS Casing.

Turn 452 – 1842 AD
Turn research down to 40% and crank up the culture to 30%.

Airlift Tank to Washington from Tolosa.

Battle for Seattle.
Begin air bombardment, although there are two SAM Inf. in Seattle.
First five bombing runs are successful, the sixth is intercepted by a Fighter, 25% damage to the Bomber. Don’t know where he came from?
Seventh run is successful, the results:

Move Tank, Artillery and Infantry up to attack position.

Move Spy into Bangalore. There is no appearance of War Weariness in this city of size 12.

Our other Spy makes a stop in Madrid, which is building Scotland Yard. Madrid is making 32 GPT from the Mahabodi!

Attack G’s Frigate with our Battleship and sink it near Lahore, now 32/40.
Attack one of G’s Galleons headed for Birka, and the other side of our wall with a Destroyer and kill it flawlessly. Tighten the wall a bit more.

Bombard Boston to 0% cultural defense.

Washington still refuses to talk.

Go back through cities. Avoid growth is turned on in Karakorum.

IBT
:rolleyes:

Indian Cavalry attack our Machine Gun near Hittite and the first dies while the second kills him. Cavalry now at 6.9/15.
New Sarai Bomber => Tank.
Karakorum Airport => Hydro Plant.
Carthage Trading Post => Bank.
Bursa Airport => continues Granary.
Nidaros Work Boat => continues Tank.
G adopts State Property.

Turn 453 – 1843 AD
Gunship attacks G’s Cav and kills him.

Work Boat starts fishing near Nidaros, MM to stagnation of growth.

Battle for Seattle.
Bombard cultural defense to 0% with a Destroyer.
Begin Air Strikes on Seattle. First Bomber is shot down by a Fighter. Second one hit by SAM Inf. for –59%. This isn’t good, the third is shot down by a SAM Inf. Number 4 through 7 strike but 8 is hit by a SAM Inf. for 40% loss.
Ground assault. The Tank has a 92% chance so we lead with it and it kills an Infantry unit, now 9/28.
Infantry attacks Infantry and kills him, now 16.8/20.
Artillery attacks SAM Inf. and kills him, now 15.1/18.
Artillery attacks SAM Inf. and kills him flawlessly.

We take Seattle plus 271 Gold and install a new Governor.

Now we move troops on Boston.

Amphibious Infantry attacks SAM Inf. on the hill outside Seattle and kills him. Land a Tank, Gunship and Artillery unit.

“Fly” a Great General over to Tolosa.

IBT
Our Infantry outside of Boston gets attacked by an American Artillery unit.
Durnovaria Spy => Hydro Plant.
Kolhapur Granary => Market. MM city for food and growth.
We get a Great Merchant in Bibracte.

leif erikson · Jun 2, 2007

Turn log (part 2):
Turn 454 – 1844 AD
Domination check reveals we are at 56.05%.

Battle for Boston.
Destroyer bombards cultural defense to 0%.
Air strikes begin and the first hits while the second is intercepted by a Fighter for 22% damage. The third is intercepted by a Fighter for 61% damage. The fourth is intercepted by a SAM Inf. for 59% damage. The sixth hits while the seventh is intercepted by a SAM Inf. for 49% damage. The final Bomber hits. A Fighter attacks and damages a SAM Inf.

The ground assault is started with an Artillery unit that retreats form a SAM Inf.
An Artillery unit attacks an Infantry unit and dies.
Artillery attacks an Infatry and kills him, now 14.6/18.
Artillery attacks a SAM Inf. and kills him flawlessly.
Tank attacks a SAM Inf. and kills him flawlessly.
Gunship kills an Infantry flawlessly.
A Tank moves into Boston and captures it plus 247 Gold. We install a new Governor and start a Theater.
OOps, forgot the screenie? :blush:

We visit Madras with our Spy and find, for a city size 14, no War Weariness at all in the city. It is –1 food for lack of health resources. The Temple of Solomon is here. G has been working on his religions.

The units in Madras:

Sink an American Destroyer outside of Assyrian, our Destroyer is now 8.4/30.

Lightbulbing the Great Merchant will provide 3003 beakers towards Facism.

Move Spy into Hittite and find that it has a –3 to happiness for “We yearn to join our Motherland”. It is a shell of its former economic power.

Washington will talk, let’s see what he wishes to say, I mean give up?
He wants to Capitulate, but I don’t think that is very good for us. He will not give up a tech for peace nor a city (Philly)?

IBT
Very interesting. Izzie comes calling and demands that we cancel our deals with H, who is her Vassal?

I tell her to go fly a kite!
Nidaros Tank => Jail.
Old Sarai Marine => Battleship.
Turfan Bomber => Jail.
Vienne Infantry => Marine.
Isca Transport => Drydock.
Camulodunum Marine => Tank.
Bursa Granary => Bank.
The borders of New York expand.
Our Tank is attacked by an American Fighter and damaged 20%.
Our Fighter intercepts an American Fighter for 43% damage.
A Viking revolt takes place in Hittite.

Turn 455 – 1845 AD
Spy visits Valencia.

Then we visit Burgundian where we find that Izzie is building the Apollo Program.

Then we visit Santiago and find:

Battleship attacks an American Destroyer near New York and sinks it, now 6/40. Moves into New York for repairs.

Leave Bombers in New York, although most are healing.

Spy moves into Atlanta and finds:

Spy moves into Chittagong and find no War Weariness:

After Action Report:
We are currently at 56.39% of domination.

The culture slider is at 30% and we’re barely holding with War Weariness. W will talk but he isn’t interested in giving up any techs. He wants to capitulate to us, which would not be a good thing either for domination limit or keeping him on G’s side. I thimnk we should make either sign a cease fire or peace for 10 turns while we get some Jails built and, perhaps, research Facism and try to get Mt. Rushmore built. Although I’d rather have W build it for us and we take it from him.

G hasn’t made any moves for any of our cities. It is quite frustrating!! :sad:

We are quite far ahead in all aspect of the game except getting G to find a way to build his spaceship?

leif erikson · Jun 2, 2007

Part 1 from the game's session turn log (1835AD-1838AD):

Spoiler :

leif erikson · Jun 2, 2007

Part 2 from game's session turn log (1839AD-1841AD):

Spoiler :

leif erikson · Jun 2, 2007

Finally, part 3 (1842AD - 1845AD):

Spoiler :

leif erikson · Jun 3, 2007

Promise, this is the last one for the night. :eek:

Roster:
Gator - UP
Bede - On Deck
RRAU
Sanabas
Frederiksberg
Cactus Pete
Leif - just played.

I do not expect Gator to be able to take the turn set. Please expect it to change to Brother Bede tomorrow.

Until then, there is plenty to discuss.
Peace with W, tech or not?
Getting G to take our open cities?
The lack of War Weariness in G's cities and the number of units he has stacked up in some of them. :eek:

Izzie is working on Apollo, but it will take her nearly as long as we will be working on Three Gorges Dam! :eek:

And I'm sure we will find more.

Now, off to get some :sleep:

Cactus Pete · Jun 3, 2007

Too late to check save, but I've sometimes been able to coerce tech for peace by laying seige to W's (or whomever's) new capital (not taking it, just advancing on it, reducing defenses, weakening units, and detroying most of them -- may only have to begin the process before he is persuaded). If at all practical, like to try before signing a treaty. Any damage we do to any of his troops or cities will probably effect his calculations, but attacking the capital seems to work best.

I'm wondering if, as part of the fix for this game, G's ww was eliminated.

I'm thinking that the sooner we curtail Spain's research, the sooner she will be interested in trading with G -- though that does not look like it will be soon.

What about building some more workers for G? Maybe even run one in front of his nose and into an abandoned city, hoping he'll give chase.

Exactly how did G take Tartar?

From, your screen shots, can't tell everything that has been built in G's cities. What has he done besides train units?

leif erikson · Jun 3, 2007

Cactus Pete said:
From, your screen shots, can't tell everything that has been built in G's cities. What has he done besides train units?

I went back to the autosaves. We have actually been in only two of G's core cities, Bangalore and Madras. I was heading the Spy towards Delhi.

Here is what is in Bangalore:
Walls
Castle
Barracks
Stable
Granary
Lighthouse
Drydock
Forge
Theater
The Masjid-al-Haram
Hindu Temple

Here is what is in Madras:
Walls
Castle
Barracks
Stable
Granary
Aqueduct
Forge
Monument
Academy
Library
Theater
Jewish Temple
Jewish Monastery
The Temple of Solomon
Islamic Temple
Hindu Temple
Hindu Monastery
Hermitage

It wouldn't be too hard to put Atlanta under pressure, there are Destroyers in the area and Bombers could be moved to Konya or Bursa. The Bombers are unmoved in the save, most are healing after the drubbing they took at Boston! :rolleyes:

EDIT - There are discussion going on concerning when a Vanilla SGOTM should start. You will find more info HERE.
Just in case you would like to participate.

Frederiksberg · Jun 3, 2007

Good war progress :goodjob:

. Our bombers are really paying off :hammer:

Just to make sure: Have you explicitly asked for Fascism (Cheapest tech) in return for peace? I'm asking because when we made peace with Hannibal he also started out offering capitulation and no tech even though he was also willing to give a tech without capitulation...

leif erikson said:
I think we should make either sign a cease fire or peace for 10 turns while we get some Jails built and, perhaps, research Facism and try to get Mt. Rushmore built. Although Id rather have W build it for us and we take it from him.

Mt. Rushmore is a national wonder so it can't be captured. It is, however, not that expensive particularly since we have stone. We can build it in about 8 turns in Camulodunum provided that we get rid of WW first (By making peace).

We need more work boats ASAP to do something about starvation in New York and to start Carthage growing. I suggest we stop building a bank in Carthage - we are investing 300 hammers to gain something like 2.5 gpt. That's a really bad return on the investment :crazyeye:

. Let's pump out some work boats here instead.

Another minor thing: I think the first build in our captured American cities should be culture to get the fastest possible expansion to full fat cross.

Cactus Pete said:
Exactly how did G take Tartar?

Gandhi captured Tartar by landing a stack of 6 units next to it. I think we have to realize that the only way we can give Gandhi more cities is to let him choose which ones he want. We could give him Birka now and then build the space elevator in Nidaros instead.

leif erikson · Jun 3, 2007

Frederiksberg said:
Good war progress . Our bombers are really paying off

I was a bit surprised by the effectiveness of Fighters from Philly and SAM Inf. in a few of those turns. I haven't had that happen before. I love the RNG, yet at other times it was most kind. Guess that is why they call it an RNG?
:crazyeye:

Frederiksberg said:
Just to make sure: Have you explicitly asked for Fascism (Cheapest tech) in return for peace? I'm asking because when we made peace with Hannibal he also started out offering capitulation and no tech even though he was also willing to give a tech without capitulation...

Yes, I started by being greedy and asking for all three techs, then two and then only Facism. I then went back through and asked for each tech by itself, no go. I then asked for Philly, but we knew what the answer would be. I tried several combinations and individual techs, he is stubborn!!

Frederiksberg said:
Mt. Rushmore is a national wonder so it can't be captured. It is, however, not that expensive particularly since we have stone. We can build it in about 8 turns in Camulodunum provided that we get rid of WW first (By making peace).

I was too confident we'd get Facism with peace and should have just researched it. :blush:

Perhaps we should take peace and gold and change research to Facism?

Frederiksberg said:
We need more work boats ASAP to do something about starvation in New York and to start Carthage growing. I suggest we stop building a bank in Carthage - we are investing 300 hammers to gain something like 2.5 gpt. That's a really bad return on the investment . Let's pump out some work boats here instead.

Yes, I was really tired last night and put a bank in there until we had time to discuss it more. I think you are right that a Work boat is more appropriate.

Frederiksberg said:
Another minor thing: I think the first build in our captured American cities should be culture to get the fastest possible expansion to full fat cross.

It is not really minor and I should have remembered that. :blush:

Frederiksberg said:
Gandhi captured Tartar by landing a stack of 6 units next to it. I think we have to realize that the only way we can give Gandhi more cities is to let him choose which ones he want. We could give him Birka now and then build the space elevator in Nidaros instead.

I think you may be right. Is it a good idea to simply remove troops from north of New Sarai and let him take what he wants? :eek:

Frederiksberg · Jun 3, 2007

leif erikson said:
I was too confident we'd get Facism with peace and should have just researched it. Perhaps we should take peace and gold and change research to Facism?

We can research it quite fast - particularly if we use the GM to provide some of the beakers.

leif erikson said:
Yes, I was really tired last night and put a bank in there until we had time to discuss it more. I think you are right that a Work boat is more appropriate.

You did an amazing job with the turn logs so no wonder you were tired

.

Cactus Pete · Jun 3, 2007

"You did an amazing job with the turn logs so no wonder you were tired ."

Indeed . . . You set a high standard gor the rest of us.

I'm inclined to agree (within limits) about letting G take what he wants, but he really needs Nidaros for many of the neighboring cities to be useful. Can we allow that right now? Would it make sense to use our troops to create a minimum-pillage-damage corridor to where we want G's troops to roam?

Here's a bit of a radical idea: Attack G's city(s) with multiple troops and eliminate them -- thereby reducing his supply costs and eliminating the expense of upgrading them when he is able. (assuming our spy contues to find no evidence of ww)

leif erikson · Jun 3, 2007

Cactus Pete said:
I'm inclined to agree (within limits) about letting G take what he wants, but he really needs Nidaros for many of the neighboring cities to be useful. Can we allow that right now? Would it make sense to use our troops to create a minimum-pillage-damage corridor to where we want G's troops to roam?

Experience thus far is that G's troops will pillage instead of seizing the cities. So all the Gold produced by the Towns will be useless to him and will need to be rebuilt. That's a lot of turns that he can't afford to waste.

Cactus Pete said:
Here's a bit of a radical idea: Attack G's city(s) with multiple troops and eliminate them -- thereby reducing his supply costs and eliminating the expense of upgrading them when he is able. (assuming our spy continues to find no evidence of ww)

The true test will be Delhi. :scan:

G founded at least two religions and his cities have several religions and Temples. That could be part of why no WW is showing. We've also been pretty nice to him, no?

As far as taking anything from G, don't know if it would work. I'm getting ready to try anything we think might help.

It would be nice to get Three Gorges and Space Elevator built before he gets our main cities. However, they could be built elsewhere? :mischief:

Thanks for the turn log. Now I wish I could play as well as I can put a log together!! :blush:

rrau · Jun 3, 2007

I have a question. If W has built Apollo's and we capture that city, does he have to start from scratch again? If not, America is a powerhouse in most late games and I'd worry he'd build the rocket before Ghandi could - even with very few cities. We might consider pounding away at him until he is gone or he becomes Izzy's vassal.

Edit: What civic is Ghandi running? He may need those troops because of the war weariness if they're being peacekeepers.

Bede · Jun 3, 2007

All the Spaceship buildings, including Apollo but excluding the Space Elevator, are classed as projects so they do not reside in any city. Once built they cannot be captured or destroyed.

I think rrau's approach of pounding away at Washington until he either disappears forever or becomes a vassal is the best one. Though remember that even when he becomes a vassal he doesn't lose the ability to build SS parts.

leif erikson · Jun 3, 2007

rrau said:
Edit: What civic is Ghandi running? He may need those troops because of the war weariness if they're being peacekeepers.

Gandhi is currently running Universal Suffrage, Bureaucracy, Emancipation, State Property and Theocracy.

Bede said:
I think rrau's approach of pounding away at Washington until he either disappears forever or becomes a vassal is the best one. Though remember that even when he becomes a vassal he doesn't lose the ability to build SS parts.

I like this approach as well but there is a problem. We are up against the domination limit, soon anyway. What do we do with the cities, raze them? If so, then who settles?

It will take some time to allow these cities to become fruitful, so razing them does have a certain attraction, unless G will get moving and take some cities. Then we'll have all the room in the world under the Domination Limit. :rolleyes:

Cactus Pete · Jun 4, 2007

"If not, America is a powerhouse in most late games and I'd worry he'd build the rocket before Ghandi could - even with very few cities."

Given the high cost of the late game techs, I don't understand how any civ can be a powerhouse without seven or eight decent cities.

If we raze cities, wouldn't we increase the probability of W becoming Izzie's vassal, which is not to my liking. W is weakened significantly (and we could choose to do more without city destruction or capture in an additional turn); plus, we can monitor his progress with spies. Spain is now the far greater threat.

I've suggested tantalizing G with a worker. It might also be worth a desperate try to put a single fighter or bomber in one of our abandoned cities after aggravating G with it. Frustrating that knowledge of some arcane aspect of the AI's programing may be determinative in the game.

BTW, how is a winner determined if G doesn't get to the stars for any team?

"Experience thus far is that G's troops will pillage instead of seizing the cities. So all the Gold produced by the Towns will be useless to him and will need to be rebuilt. That's a lot of turns that he can't afford to waste. "

Hence the suggestion to create a corridor to one of our cities that traverses as few valuable developed tiles as possible. May not be worth even trying, but I wanted to make sure I got the concept across. Also, if he does eventually enter our cities, we can provide workers.

SGOTM 04 - Xteam

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