SGOTM 05 - Gypsy Kings

[da_Vinci]

I think after BW, we should either head directly to IW, or detour to Wheel>Pottery(we'll be close to getting Wheel anyway from beakers) and work on our science rate.

Since it appears barb swords are much better than barb axes, what we research after BW seems to be the next junction where we need to decide how to proceed.

Yes, at turn 51 or so we will have a decision to make. IW and a war footing, or Wheel > Pottery, and maybe rapid peace.

Any idea what barbs do when they are at peace? Maybe they settle more cities? We need to test a peace ASAP strategy (I'm tested out for the moment).

edit: actually, if we are planning on finishing as fast as possible...should we run a specialist economy, rather than a cottage economy? That way our research is not tied to our economy, and from everything I've seen and heard, specialist economies are better in the first half of the game anyway.

Won't that depend on finding food resources? If we are lean on those, will specialists still be viable?

dV

 

[Thrallia]

if we can get a single food resource in each city, and farm the heck out of grassland tiles, we can support 2-3 scientists per city at size 5, and then 1 specialist out of every 3 pop after that. That should be enough since libraries will increase research 25%, and once we take the Pyramids from someone(hopefully someone close!) we'll be able to run Representation for 6(8 after libraries) beakers per scientist!

That's worth more than a town is worth at 100% science until you get free speech.

also,

Now I am off to kick some Brennus butt in SGOTM 04

I like how you assume I know what's going on in your SGOTM4 game

 

[da_Vinci]

Interestingly, I rarely build a worker first in my solo games...perhaps I should reconsider this view?

If you do, maybe you will catch me!

I like how you assume I know what's going on in your SGOTM4 game

Didn't we have this discussion about a month ago ... others posting in the Geezer thread, you posting in others ... And your post just now in the MW 04 thread! You could know if you so choose I am sure.

And there are three other teammates in this thread who know exactly what I am talking about ... this is not a personal forum for just the two of us you know

dV

Here is the test map with the west fish removed, if someone wants to test run the peace strategy.

 

[da_Vinci]

Playing the test game on the peace path. Alex accepted peace on turn 35, none of the others would. And none before that.

Qin took peace turn 45, Cyrus Izzy, Sal on turn 51. That left me at war with Asoka and Toku.

It almost seemd that with only two enemies, the barbs concentrated on those two more. More axes headed for India, and on turn 73 the barbs took Delhi!

If others can, try a game were you make peace with some, stay at war with one or two ... do the barbs seem to spawn selectively near the ones still at war? If you think that is going on, we can use it!

dV

 

[g_storrow]

I think the peace way is better focusing attacks is the best way. Like we would in normal game. I vote for that.

but do we make peace with everyone who will or do we try to make peace with everyone apart from the closest people or the nation with the most empty land next to it.

 

[Lehm]

So here we go. From the statistics you can see how the barbs a giving us bonification to our research. We had 9 gold (beakers) in the beginning and the barbs gave us 3 additional ones for the research of mining.

In the last turn those 3 beakers were set to agriculture but I think the barbs will research the same we will. So maybe there will be a change of the additional beakers we get.

 

[da_Vinci]

Ok, here is what I would like to do ...

Lehm, upload the current save to the progress and results page ... if you have any questions about that , just ask.

After a look at the position, Lehm will play on another 10 turns or so. So for the rest of us, we can look at the save, but don't touch (no irreversibe moves). When you resume, Lehm, you can just start up from the save on your computer.

Looks like more barbs than in the test game ... maybe test was not set to raging barbs? That may influence our calculus about how fast to get to IW.

Also, lots of close resources, unlike the test game. That may argue for getting infrasturcture quickly.

So let's pause here, see the game's current status, and make a final decision on BW next, or agri then BW. I still think that I like agri, as then the worker will have work to do.

BTW, in a test, if I went wheel pottery after BW, i got to IW at turn 99, only 10 later than if I went BW to IW. But I got three cottages built for that 10 turn delay. I am attaching the save at turn 99.

So I think I like the balance of pushing to BW and IW but getting a few worker techs on the way to keep infrastructure developing.

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

So here we go. From the statistics you can see how the barbs a giving us bonification to our research. We had 9 gold (beakers) in the beginning and the barbs gave us 3 additional ones for the research of mining.

In the last turn those 3 beakers were set to agriculture but I think the barbs will research the same we will. So maybe there will be a change of the additional beakers we get.

Nice to have that spreadsheet. Research is one of the most intriguing aspects of this game. I've read a good article referred to by GOTM20 1st spoiler thread.
I believe that in the 1st turns we would have had base research rate of 10 bpt: (8 from palace, 1 from city tile, 1 "free" from having a city). As we already know all civs, and some already have mining as starting tech, we'd get a multiplier to our base rate (possibly 1.1?). If that is correct, it would leave us with 1 unexplained bpt.

From the other screenie is clear the barbs are "researching" hunting at the astonishing rate of 1 bpt. They/we are gaining 5 bpt for archery but that is probably a completely different equation.

Then I came with a theory for the reason why we began to receive 1bpt for wheel and fishing at some point, and 3bpt for agri:
. Of the starting civs, 2 started with agri, 5 others didn't.
. Those who had agri, 1 researched wheel, the other fishing. These techs were already known from the start by 3 other civs. When they were done, >50% of the civs had the tech (4 out of 7), then 1 free bpt for the barbs.
. The ones who didn't, researched it. Turn12, when 2 got it, 50% of civs had it, then 1 free bpt for the barbs. Turn13, 100% civs had it, 3 free bpt for barbs.

Another interesting info I learned from the research article is that as we are a team (with the barbs here, but it's the same in any team game), all techs will cost to us some 140% of their normal cost in a solo game!

Not sure of the strategic implications of this, except that:
1. we need to be really focused on the techs we want to get, and/or;
2. we should focus our land improvements and builds to leverage our beaker output.

Maybe some more discussion before proceeding onto Agri would be useful, even more so with the higher barb spawning noticed here.

 

[Lehm]

Nice to have that spreadsheet. Research is one of the most intriguing aspects of this game. I've read a good article referred to by GOTM20 1st spoiler thread.
I believe that in the 1st turns we would have had base research rate of 10 bpt: (8 from palace, 1 from city tile, 1 "free" from having a city). As we already know all civs, and some already have mining as starting tech, we'd get a multiplier to our base rate (possibly 1.1?). If that is correct, it would leave us with 1 unexplained bpt.

I thought we get 8 beakers from our palace, plus 1 from tile and another 3 from the barbs teching the same

 

[Lehm]

Ok, here is what I would like to do ...

Lehm, upload the current save to the progress and results page ... if you have any questions about that , just ask.

...did it....

 

[da_Vinci]

I thought we get 8 beakers from our palace, plus 1 from tile and another 3 from the barbs teching the same

What I seemed to observe, and later tonight I can post a spreadsheet of my handwritten notes, is that for a tech that we get 0 beakers towards if we are not reasearching it, we get one bonus when we start to research it.

Mining, when I went agri first in a test, never got any free beakers when not researched. When I researched it from the start, I got one more than I expected ... unless that is the "one free for having a city" which is news to me (have I missed that for the last year?).

Agri got to 3 free beakers in my sim, before we start to research it, which became 6 free beakers after we started (I guess the barbs researched it along with us? That happend on turn 12 (getting 3), so I assume that is because new AI learned it. If we are only seeing 2 at turn 12, but one in wheel (sooner than I found it in my test), then maybe in the real game, one AI went wheel before agri. In which case we can expect 5 instead of 6 free beakers to agri, but earlier one for wheel. Might add one turn to agri.

I am thinking that we might want a settler after we get to pop 2 or 3, to get that gold started. Extra pop only add one commerce at this stage, so after we are working the farmed banana and the mined hill, send a settler to the gold? Still go Agri>BW as planned. Working the mined gold early may speed us to IW!

If we settle SE of gold, we have rice and gold in the "skinny square" (what you have before the fat cross), and we will have mining and agriculture to make use of both! So early agri as planned, maybe skip barracks for early settler, and go for the gold!

Also, the possibilty that we found one or two other cities early may keep worker busy enough that we don't need wheel pottery until after IW, which might come in really fast if we get the gold up ASAP. Then our barb allies might really do some damage with the apparently larger numbers than we saw in my testing.

Maybe third city is stone/clams and we detour to masonry (we should get free techs to that pretty early, as I did in my test), and give 'henge a shot? We could use the culture, and the prophet can't hurt either.

Still looking for that production city ... E of stone could get food and gold in FC as well, but we have to wait for the culture to get it, so no early gold. Settle SE of gold and North of stone and we can use both right away, but the production is split.

Seems like we ought to discuss city plans at this time, as that may have a bearing on what techs we want when.

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

I thought we get 8 beakers from our palace, plus 1 from tile and another 3 from the barbs teching the same

Mining, when I went agri first in a test, never got any free beakers when not researched. When I researched it from the start, I got one more than I expected ... unless that is the "one free for having a city" which is news to me (have I missed that for the last year?).

The free beaker is a documented fact, not part of my theory. You can notice that when you're in anarchy (or research slider to 0 and no scientists) and should be getting 0 bpt (so researching a tech would take infinite turns) in fact it takes the same # of turns of the # of beakers required for the tech. Probably added by Firaxis to get rid of divide by zero errors.

Agri got to 3 free beakers in my sim, before we start to research it, which became 6 free beakers after we started (I guess the barbs researched it along with us? That happend on turn 12 (getting 3), so I assume that is because new AI learned it. If we are only seeing 2 at turn 12, but one in wheel (sooner than I found it in my test), then maybe in the real game, one AI went wheel before agri. In which case we can expect 5 instead of 6 free beakers to agri, but earlier one for wheel. Might add one turn to agri.

I'd expect the 14 turns shown on the research bar to have taken any effect into account. Then again, I bet all AIs have agri by now, so 3 free bpt plus the same 3 "free" accounted for the boni I mentioned earlier that we had while researching mining.

I am thinking that we might want a settler after we get to pop 2 or 3, to get that gold started. Extra pop only add one commerce at this stage, so after we are working the farmed banana and the mined hill, send a settler to the gold? Still go Agri>BW as planned. Working the mined gold early may speed us to IW!

If we settle SE of gold, we have rice and gold in the "skinny square" (what you have before the fat cross), and we will have mining and agriculture to make use of both! So early agri as planned, maybe skip barracks for early settler, and go for the gold!

Also, the possibilty that we found one or two other cities early may keep worker busy enough that we don't need wheel pottery until after IW, which might come in really fast if we get the gold up ASAP. Then our barb allies might really do some damage with the apparently larger numbers than we saw in my testing.

Maybe third city is stone/clams and we detour to masonry (we should get free techs to that pretty early, as I did in my test), and give 'henge a shot? We could use the culture, and the prophet can't hurt either.

Still looking for that production city ... E of stone could get food and gold in FC as well, but we have to wait for the culture to get it, so no early gold. Settle SE of gold and North of stone and we can use both right away, but the production is split.

Seems like we ought to discuss city plans at this time, as that may have a bearing on what techs we want when.

dV

dV

These ideas seem interesting. With stone nearby, I envision building the Pyramids to run representation to enhance Thrallia's proposal of running a farm-based SE. Btw, the barbs also get the benefit of getting able to run any civic that we can run ourselves.

I also agree with agri/bw tech path. I think we could build settler when pop=2, having mined the pig and farmed the banana.

 

[da_Vinci]

I assume that if we get henge, the barbs get "culture" from the obelisk? Imagine, barb cities being cultureal powerhouses! If barb cities can grow in size, then if there are enough of them, domination may be faster than conquest?

That farm econony will depend on finding enough fresh water, won't it? Maybe some cities can run on SE, but others may have to be CE?

Whether to settle one big production city by the gold, or two separate ones to have food in each, may be one of those major decisions we need to make soon.

Addendum: Did someone say we can't get goody huts by moving on them, but can if our city border overtakes them? We could settle cities adjacent to the huts, if this is true.

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

Nice start Lehm!!

I just had a chance to catch up on the thread. I'll be flying tommorrow, and very busy the next day.

My votes on the issues if I understand them correctly.
Research> AG> BW
Builds> Worker>anything to grow to size 3>settler

That's all I've got until I get back.

 

[da_Vinci]

For C63, who like me seems to be intrigued by the free beakers, and anyone else interested, here are the beaker spreadsheets from my tests.

dV

 

[Thrallia]

Also, lots of close resources, unlike the test game. That may argue for getting infrasturcture quickly.

So let's pause here, see the game's current status, and make a final decision on BW next, or agri then BW. I still think that I like agri, as then the worker will have work to do.

BTW, in a test, if I went wheel pottery after BW, i got to IW at turn 99, only 10 later than if I went BW to IW. But I got three cottages built for that 10 turn delay. I am attaching the save at turn 99.

So I think I like the balance of pushing to BW and IW but getting a few worker techs on the way to keep infrastructure developing.

dV

Here's a thought...if we are considering a SE rather than a CE, should we go pottery at first? or should we perhaps go BW>Writing>IW or BW>IW>Writing?

It looks like there's enough food resources for a number of cities to run specialists, but we can't do that unless we have writing for libraries.

These ideas seem interesting. With stone nearby, I envision building the Pyramids to run representation to enhance Thrallia's proposal of running a farm-based SE. Btw, the barbs also get the benefit of getting able to run any civic that we can run ourselves.

I also agree with agri/bw tech path. I think we could build settler when pop=2, having mined the pig and farmed the banana.

I agree with the Pyramid attempt...with raging barbs, we should be able to distract any AI we think is attempting to build the pyramids in contention with us. It will also greatly enhance our SE, if that is the direction we decide to go.

I assume that if we get henge, the barbs get "culture" from the obelisk? Imagine, barb cities being cultureal powerhouses! If barb cities can grow in size, then if there are enough of them, domination may be faster than conquest?

That farm econony will depend on finding enough fresh water, won't it? Maybe some cities can run on SE, but others may have to be CE?

Whether to settle one big production city by the gold, or two separate ones to have food in each, may be one of those major decisions we need to make soon.

Addendum: Did someone say we can't get goody huts by moving on them, but can if our city border overtakes them? We could settle cities adjacent to the huts, if this is true.

dV

There's 4 food resources on our island, there's two tiny rivers as well...our capital could be a great SE city, as could one with the two southern clams. There's also room for two pretty good cities to the SE of our capital, one 2W of the clam, with lots of cottagable(or farmable) grassland and a dye and stone. And 1 1N of the rice, with the gold.

We could probably run a very good cottage economy on this island, what with all the jungle grasslands, luxuries, and food resources, but I don't think a cottage economy would pay off in time for a fast win.

I also don't think we want our science rate tied to our commerce slider since we are attempting a conquest/domination victory...that tends to drag down the science % very quickly.

 

[hellwitch]

From what i see gold+rice city must go first. I expect to find copper in our FC or on the grassland in the middle of the junge(it is very stange that there still isn't jungle/forest grow), or maybe on one of the two far end of our island. I think that our production cities will be on the jungle later as there are most of the hills of our island. And for the route i prefer BW>IW(this will give us more free breakers and better barb troops) or Agri>BW>IW for not idle turns for our worker.
I made few calcs too - if we go on Argi>BW the worker can do Farm(banana), pighill mine and farm the plains just 1-2 turns before BW. Then we could make 1 chop for the first settler. The prod line - keep the worker>barrack till pop3 > settler after pop 3 .
I've also made new test game and again the WW red faces hit very hard - 2pop capital at most even i've made peace with Toku,Qin and Alex.

 

[da_Vinci]

From what i see gold+rice city must go first. I expect to find copper in our FC or on the grassland in the middle of the junge(it is very stange that there still isn't jungle/forest grow), or maybe on one of the two far end of our island. I think that our production cities will be on the jungle later as there are most of the hills of our island. And for the route i prefer BW>IW(this will give us more free breakers and better barb troops) or Agri>BW>IW for not idle turns for our worker.
I made few calcs too - if we go on Argi>BW the worker can do Farm(banana), pighill mine and farm the plains just 1-2 turns before BW. Then we could make 1 chop for the first settler. The prod line - keep the worker>barrack till pop3 > settler after pop 3 .
I've also made new test game and again the WW red faces hit very hard - 2pop capital at most even i've made peace with Toku,Qin and Alex.

I think that perhaps R1's test, that I was operating from , did not have raging barbs, as I had no red faces in run to 700 BC. But more barbs will mean more WW

@hellwitch: so you are fine with spliting the gold and the stone rather than combining into one city for a troop city? I like that too, as I think otherwise we wait too long for the fat cross to get the gold.

The free beakers for agri are nice, but we won't get it until turn 70 or so if we don't research it ourselves. With rice at our city 2 location, I think agri early is a must, so our cities get growth. With limited production, we will have to whip. Plus, the WW may well force us into peace with most pretty quicky ... in which case the game will be won with our infrasturcture, so we better be building it up.

When you say pop 3 , do you mean city tile and two citizens, or do you mean city tile and three citizens? Since only farmed banana and mined pighill are high production tiles, I think we go setter after our first new citizen is born (pop 2 strictly speaking, but three tiles worked: city, farm, mine).

We might prevent the high WW by making selective peace early? Maybe make peace with more friendly leaders, or those with no space for barbs to spawn, or who have settled on hills ...

dV

 

[hellwitch]

I made 3 new test games(with updated land tiles) and i found out that barbs success is really a metter of chance. So i change my mind to delay IW and go for wonders first. And for the second city (tested the two possibilities) the stone+gold + sea food if better than rice + gold if we go for the henge(with 3 chops) after the first settler. after Agri>BW>wheel(for some work activity)>Myst>fishing>Masonary>then go for the Oracle(maybe in a thigd city in the jungle because there is 3 forests). And after that go for the Piramids with stone hooked(we will see where). At my tests this 3 wonders appear between 1100 BC and 300BC all the time.

 

[da_Vinci]

I made 3 new test games(with updated land tiles) and i found out that barbs success is really a metter of chance. So i change my mind to delay IW and go for wonders first. And for the second city (tested the two possibilities) the stone+gold + sea food if better than rice + gold if we go for the henge(with 3 chops) after the first settler. after Agri>BW>wheel(for some work activity)>Myst>fishing>Masonary>then go for the Oracle(maybe in a thigd city in the jungle because there is 3 forests). And after that go for the Piramids with stone hooked(we will see where). At my tests this 3 wonders appear between 1100 BC and 300BC all the time.

Wonders first means we need myst, masonry and wheel (and we chop henge with no stone?), but we might push for IW after that, and let fishing come in on its own? Myst before wheel perhaps, worker can farm the capital, more pop means we can whip wonders (esp oracle) if needed.

If we are not going to found a city adjacent to the gold, which is fine with me if we get henge, then there may be better places to found cities to maximize production. See the attached screenshots. we can found a city to get the clams, two hills, and stone quarry ... that could be our HE city and main troop producer (three hammer tiles). Also, gold could be paired with a hill, and in the west another two hill city with a food source. Lots of production for troops ... cats in the cities with two hammer-rich tiles, other units in the HE stone city.

Not that we need to decide that before Lehm finishes ... Do we all agree that we get agri next, and that we build barracks after worker is done? If so, then Lehm can continue until agri is done, and then we'll hand it to the next player (where is that roster?) ... who is C63.

dV