IMO m-bw,settle in place, baracks till city size 2 then worker to mine the pighill. We will see after BW but i think IW is best if we want to get more adv. from our allies the barbs. One more thing - as we have jungle near we could get gems with IW but IW or not this will be future decision.
SGOTM 05 - Gypsy Kings
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
I'd vote for agri and pottery between BW and IW, but other than that, I agree with everything 
I'm not sure we want to beeline directly to IW anyway, since in general, wouldn't we want the barbs to have axes mainly, rather than swords?
I'm not sure we want to beeline directly to IW anyway, since in general, wouldn't we want the barbs to have axes mainly, rather than swords?
da_Vinci
Gypsy Prince
I am running the mining>agri with worker first sim now ... and I am logging how many beakers towards each tech we get each turn from the barbs.
It seems to vary, as I think even at turn 45 it was only 3bpt toward agri in the prior two sims, but in this run at turn 12 I started to get 3 bpt (0 before that), then at turn 15 I started to get 6 bpt from the barbs toward agri!
First free beaker toward wheel did not come until turn 22. And 5 bpt to archery from barbs from turn 1 (why not 7?
)
If a tech is getting a lot of barb beakers, researching that later if at all gets us more free barb hammers. I think we will want to follow how many barb beakers we are getting, as that will influence which tech to research when.
Just built the worker now, so we will see how this goes. If the barb humans don't show until turn 45, then we just need BW by then, maybe we can go with agri before BW? I will know in a little while.
@ Thrallia: Pottery before IW means getting wheel as well. We need some sense of whether barbs spawn to a limit, and thus even with IW won't make that many swords right away, or if getting IW to them really makes a big difference to barb units. Of course, if it makes a difference to us, then we rush to IW. May depend on how dense the jungle is.
@ hellwitch: The IW decision comes later, but if we think that agri before IW is going to be important, then now one can begin to ask if mining>agri>BW>IW or even agri>mining> BW>IW is better than mining>BW>agri>IW. As long as the BW is in by turn 45, maybe early farms will help our growth, and mean more commerce in the long run?
dV
It seems to vary, as I think even at turn 45 it was only 3bpt toward agri in the prior two sims, but in this run at turn 12 I started to get 3 bpt (0 before that), then at turn 15 I started to get 6 bpt from the barbs toward agri!
First free beaker toward wheel did not come until turn 22. And 5 bpt to archery from barbs from turn 1 (why not 7?
)If a tech is getting a lot of barb beakers, researching that later if at all gets us more free barb hammers. I think we will want to follow how many barb beakers we are getting, as that will influence which tech to research when.
Just built the worker now, so we will see how this goes. If the barb humans don't show until turn 45, then we just need BW by then, maybe we can go with agri before BW? I will know in a little while.
@ Thrallia: Pottery before IW means getting wheel as well. We need some sense of whether barbs spawn to a limit, and thus even with IW won't make that many swords right away, or if getting IW to them really makes a big difference to barb units. Of course, if it makes a difference to us, then we rush to IW. May depend on how dense the jungle is.
@ hellwitch: The IW decision comes later, but if we think that agri before IW is going to be important, then now one can begin to ask if mining>agri>BW>IW or even agri>mining> BW>IW is better than mining>BW>agri>IW. As long as the BW is in by turn 45, maybe early farms will help our growth, and mean more commerce in the long run?
dV
da_Vinci
Gypsy Prince
A lot of discoveries running the sims.
First of all, once we are in the game some 30 turns or so, we get 2 to 3 bpt of research for just about each first column tech, and 5 bpt to archery from turn 1. About 20 bpt of research from barbs, twice our own research at that time! We do start some 300 beakers behind at 0 techs, so we need something!
That is barb reserach bonus #1 ... a few beakers per turn toward all techs known by enough AI, whether you research it or not.
But there is barb researchg bonus #2 ... we have been getting 3 extra beakers per turn from the barbs for the tech we are researching. This adds to #1, so when I had 3 barb bpt for agri, when I started to research it, the extra became 6 barb bpt!
A 60% addition to our own 10 bpt.
Now, I am posting the final spreadsheet. I have come to the conclusion that Scout214 is right, and his plan is the best!
The point of beelining BW is to arm the barbs. The cost of that, as you can see from the charts, is our economy stagnates. Scout214 system gets BW only 10 turns later, and we have 1 more pop, and two farms built, so the economy is poised for good growth.
So is getting to BW sooner worth the loss of economic progress? I don't think so. Early BW does get more barb axes early, but they tend to be spread out over often uninhabited islands, are rarely in groups, and except for one lucky attack on Bombay, which they took, pretty much lose attacking archers in cities, as they have no backup. Even taking one city, and hurting one civ, is not worth the loss of our economic progress, IMHO.
The simple fact seems to be that the barbs are ineffective in this early stage, regardless of tech. So 10 turns faster to BW is not so useful as we first thought. Well, this is in the case that copper is not on our island, or iron (in the test game). If we have copper, is finding it 10 turns sooner that important? Again, I think not.
I have a turn 51 save of the S214 plan, and a turn 51 save of the warrior first plan (agri before IW). Both got IW at turn 89. In one, Oracle was built elsewhere turn 85, and henge before turn 100 in the other. Uplaoding those shortly.
Look at the chart, play around with the saves, and tell me if you can find a reason not to use the S214 plan.
There is not a meaningful commerce advantage to waiting until pop 2 to build worker, if for the worker we work the pig hill to max his speed.
If Lehm will indulge us, I'd like to get everyone's reactions to the sim chart before we launch ... arm the barbs or build our own economy is a strategic decision that I think we want to get right at the start.
dV
Now I am off to kick some Brennus butt in SGOTM 04
First of all, once we are in the game some 30 turns or so, we get 2 to 3 bpt of research for just about each first column tech, and 5 bpt to archery from turn 1. About 20 bpt of research from barbs, twice our own research at that time!
We do start some 300 beakers behind at 0 techs, so we need something!That is barb reserach bonus #1 ... a few beakers per turn toward all techs known by enough AI, whether you research it or not.
But there is barb researchg bonus #2 ... we have been getting 3 extra beakers per turn from the barbs for the tech we are researching. This adds to #1, so when I had 3 barb bpt for agri, when I started to research it, the extra became 6 barb bpt!
A 60% addition to our own 10 bpt.Now, I am posting the final spreadsheet. I have come to the conclusion that Scout214 is right, and his plan is the best!
The point of beelining BW is to arm the barbs. The cost of that, as you can see from the charts, is our economy stagnates. Scout214 system gets BW only 10 turns later, and we have 1 more pop, and two farms built, so the economy is poised for good growth.
So is getting to BW sooner worth the loss of economic progress? I don't think so. Early BW does get more barb axes early, but they tend to be spread out over often uninhabited islands, are rarely in groups, and except for one lucky attack on Bombay, which they took, pretty much lose attacking archers in cities, as they have no backup. Even taking one city, and hurting one civ, is not worth the loss of our economic progress, IMHO.
The simple fact seems to be that the barbs are ineffective in this early stage, regardless of tech. So 10 turns faster to BW is not so useful as we first thought. Well, this is in the case that copper is not on our island, or iron (in the test game). If we have copper, is finding it 10 turns sooner that important? Again, I think not.
I have a turn 51 save of the S214 plan, and a turn 51 save of the warrior first plan (agri before IW). Both got IW at turn 89. In one, Oracle was built elsewhere turn 85, and henge before turn 100 in the other. Uplaoding those shortly.
Look at the chart, play around with the saves, and tell me if you can find a reason not to use the S214 plan.
There is not a meaningful commerce advantage to waiting until pop 2 to build worker, if for the worker we work the pig hill to max his speed.
If Lehm will indulge us, I'd like to get everyone's reactions to the sim chart before we launch ... arm the barbs or build our own economy is a strategic decision that I think we want to get right at the start.
dV
Now I am off to kick some Brennus butt in SGOTM 04
Attachments
Scout214
Pawn in the game of Civ
Worker first (finished turn 23) puts us in a position to build the mine shortly after we get the capability (turn 15). Barracks 1st does not. In the meantime, it is critically important to research Agri BEFORE BW. Otherwise, the Worker sits around doing nothing after it builds the mine. To do Barracks with Mining/BW means we don't start building infrastructure until everyone else already has two cities. By building the Worker 1st w/Mining/Agri then BW, the Worker can build the mine, the farm on the bananas, another farm, roads and still chop forest on a timely basis to speed up dramatically the Settler and 2nd city. (I prefer archers to warriors for city defense, one apiece should do.)
Do the math. Going Worker/Barracks with Mining/Agri/BW gets us developed a whole lot faster. Can't wait for the Barbarians to get Agri for us. They will get all of the 1st level ones eventually but it doesn't benefit us to wait until turn 70+ to start farms. Getting the farms going earlier grows the Pop on City #1 to 4 by Turn 76.
When we're competing with other teams, we can't afford to take our time with infrastructure development and wait until Turn 70 or so to start it. To me that would be a huge strategic mistake.
Pop 1 will go on the mine, with its hammers. Pop 2 will go on the banana farm space. Pop 3 goes to the E forest for its hammer. Pop 4 goes on the farm S of the city, with another hammer.
Starting Turn 23, Worker should build mine, 2 farms, chop 2 forests, then build roads and back to farms. We get both food and hammers that way on a timely basis compared to alternative plans.
City should do Worker, Barracks, one military unit for defense, Settler, another military unit for that city. 2nd city could start with another Worker.
Play it out in test games. It flows nicely. Compare it to the other options. In every aspect of development, it either does the same or significantly better.
Of course, what we find with the scout can always alter a strategic plan.
Barracks/Worker gets to the same point on turn 39 as Worker/Barracks reaches on turn 37. You want to hand 2 free turns to the competition?
Mining/Agri/BW:
Turn 30 mine
Turn 35 Archery (w/o researching it)
Turn 37 Barracks
Turn 39 Pop 2, Farm on bananas
Turn 47 Archer, Farm 2 (1S of city, w/hammer)
Turn 51 Pop 3
Turn 54 BW
Turn 55 Farm 3
Turn 59 Wheel (researched)
Turn 60 1 forest chopped (building Settler)
Turn 61 Fishing (w/o research)
Turn 66 Hunting (w/o research), Forest 2 chopped
Turn 67 Settler
Turn 69 City #2
Turn 73 Pottery
Turn 75 Workboat
Turn 76 Pop 4
Compare to Mining/BW
Turn 30 Mine
Turn 35 Archery (w/o research)
Turn 37 Barracks
Turn 39 Pop 2
Turn 44 BW
Turn 45 Archer
Turn 50 Agri, Forest 1 chopped
Turn 57 Hunting (w/o)
Turn 60 Wheel
Turn 61 Fishing (w/o)
Turn 66 Settler
Turn 69 Pop 3
Turn 70 City #2
Turn 73 Pottery
Turn 75 Workboat
Turn 81 Pop 4
By doing Barracks, then Worker, it further delays getting infrastructure going. Comparative tests is laughable.
Trade off with Mining/BW vs Mining/Agri/BW is that we don't get axemen for the Barbarians as fast. They are good for harassment but are unlikely to take a city from one of the other civs with them. That can wait. Doing that while waiting to do farms and roads looks like a bad idea to me.
Do the math. Going Worker/Barracks with Mining/Agri/BW gets us developed a whole lot faster. Can't wait for the Barbarians to get Agri for us. They will get all of the 1st level ones eventually but it doesn't benefit us to wait until turn 70+ to start farms. Getting the farms going earlier grows the Pop on City #1 to 4 by Turn 76.
When we're competing with other teams, we can't afford to take our time with infrastructure development and wait until Turn 70 or so to start it. To me that would be a huge strategic mistake.
Pop 1 will go on the mine, with its hammers. Pop 2 will go on the banana farm space. Pop 3 goes to the E forest for its hammer. Pop 4 goes on the farm S of the city, with another hammer.
Starting Turn 23, Worker should build mine, 2 farms, chop 2 forests, then build roads and back to farms. We get both food and hammers that way on a timely basis compared to alternative plans.
City should do Worker, Barracks, one military unit for defense, Settler, another military unit for that city. 2nd city could start with another Worker.
Play it out in test games. It flows nicely. Compare it to the other options. In every aspect of development, it either does the same or significantly better.
Of course, what we find with the scout can always alter a strategic plan.
Barracks/Worker gets to the same point on turn 39 as Worker/Barracks reaches on turn 37. You want to hand 2 free turns to the competition?
Mining/Agri/BW:
Turn 30 mine
Turn 35 Archery (w/o researching it)
Turn 37 Barracks
Turn 39 Pop 2, Farm on bananas
Turn 47 Archer, Farm 2 (1S of city, w/hammer)
Turn 51 Pop 3
Turn 54 BW
Turn 55 Farm 3
Turn 59 Wheel (researched)
Turn 60 1 forest chopped (building Settler)
Turn 61 Fishing (w/o research)
Turn 66 Hunting (w/o research), Forest 2 chopped
Turn 67 Settler
Turn 69 City #2
Turn 73 Pottery
Turn 75 Workboat
Turn 76 Pop 4
Compare to Mining/BW
Turn 30 Mine
Turn 35 Archery (w/o research)
Turn 37 Barracks
Turn 39 Pop 2
Turn 44 BW
Turn 45 Archer
Turn 50 Agri, Forest 1 chopped
Turn 57 Hunting (w/o)
Turn 60 Wheel
Turn 61 Fishing (w/o)
Turn 66 Settler
Turn 69 Pop 3
Turn 70 City #2
Turn 73 Pottery
Turn 75 Workboat
Turn 81 Pop 4
By doing Barracks, then Worker, it further delays getting infrastructure going. Comparative tests is laughable.
Trade off with Mining/BW vs Mining/Agri/BW is that we don't get axemen for the Barbarians as fast. They are good for harassment but are unlikely to take a city from one of the other civs with them. That can wait. Doing that while waiting to do farms and roads looks like a bad idea to me.
g_storrow
Prince
sorry havent been posting.
I am personally a worker first man myself. I agree with sc214 plan apart from chopping forests maybe ( not a big forest chopper.) Leaves us with no hammers for capital really.
I would get settler out before defense as we dont need it/we might need it for happiness and I would go warrior as cheaper remember how good is AI at attacking with galleys. It is archipelago we might need a galley /trireme for defense before anything else but that will be a decision for later.
My vote worker first.with mining then agriculture.
In games that I play I find developing worked squares makes the most difference as well as getting 4 cities out quick.
I am personally a worker first man myself. I agree with sc214 plan apart from chopping forests maybe ( not a big forest chopper.) Leaves us with no hammers for capital really.
I would get settler out before defense as we dont need it/we might need it for happiness and I would go warrior as cheaper remember how good is AI at attacking with galleys. It is archipelago we might need a galley /trireme for defense before anything else but that will be a decision for later.
My vote worker first.with mining then agriculture.
In games that I play I find developing worked squares makes the most difference as well as getting 4 cities out quick.
da_Vinci
Gypsy Prince
Looks like we now have three votes for the worker first, mining agri BW plan: me, S214 and g_s. Could use a test of how agri mining BW compares to that.
Worker first seems to be C63's prefered style, so maybe we have four votes?
As much as early axes for the barbs sounds good, in the tests I was unimpressed with its effect, and we are only 10 turns later to BW by inserting agri, but with farms and more pop in exchange.
And I did not find much benefit to having pop 2 before worker. No high value tile for the pop 2 to be working!
These seem to have been the two reasons for worker second, and mining BW. Does not look like they pan out in reality... at least to me.
dV
Worker first seems to be C63's prefered style, so maybe we have four votes?
As much as early axes for the barbs sounds good, in the tests I was unimpressed with its effect, and we are only 10 turns later to BW by inserting agri, but with farms and more pop in exchange.
And I did not find much benefit to having pop 2 before worker. No high value tile for the pop 2 to be working!
These seem to have been the two reasons for worker second, and mining BW. Does not look like they pan out in reality... at least to me.
dV
Conquistador 63
Deity
If most people agree on that, count me in.
I've made longer test. At 1000BC The WW kill as with +3,+4 
. I were pushed to drop all my towns to 1 so development is not the best path. And the barb success is very dependant on the swords. 5-10 turns after i found IW the start to capture towns and even destroy India. When the barbs have only axe they couldn't take towns because of 3G archers.
If we want development we must make peace but this will kill the barbs because all AI's have 1-2 free settler ready to settle.
. I were pushed to drop all my towns to 1 so development is not the best path. And the barb success is very dependant on the swords. 5-10 turns after i found IW the start to capture towns and even destroy India. When the barbs have only axe they couldn't take towns because of 3G archers.If we want development we must make peace but this will kill the barbs because all AI's have 1-2 free settler ready to settle.
da_Vinci
Gypsy Prince
What if we get IW at almost the same time with the early agriculture path as with the direct to IW path? Sounds like the swords are the key to the barb success, and maybe it is not that they are successful against the AI second city, but perhaps the third?I've made longer test. At 1000BC The WW kill as with +3,+4
If we want development we must make peace but this will kill the barbs because all AI's have 1-2 free settler ready to settle.
I ran rather fast from turn 51 to 100 in my sims to see how effective the barbs could be. IW came in at similar times in both, but might be different with tight micromanagement.
Was that terrible WW with or without making peace with some or all AI? We will be everyone's worst enemy, so trading with them may be out of the question. Still, if there are some we might get nice with, maybe selective early peace with a few is the way to go?
Addendum: Another answer to high WW is more, smaller cities. Early use of specialists to slow growth. It is higher maint, but probably better than red faces.
I look at this map and I see we need to get workboats out exploring, additional cities developed, and to find resources. We don't have a lot of high yield tiles in the capital, so we need to make them high yield. Also need to know who, if any, we can reach with galleys.
So do we agree that mining, agri, BW with a worker build first makes the most sense? For the first 10 turns, mining and a worker still gives us the flexibility to go with BW second if we see something that makes us decide that is better. Maybe we let Lehm play the mining/worker path for his 10 turns, and in the meantime we can see how much difference in getting IW there is between inserting agri or not.
What does everyone think?
dV
da_Vinci
Gypsy Prince
If you have not already noticed, in my early agri sim I farmed and worked the farms before I mined and worked the mine. It seemed that there were not a lot of high value things to build with hammers (no buildings after barracks, who needs stacks of warrior and archers?), and growing pop to work on tiles with commerce seemed more useful. Which make Agri first an interesting option ... I will check that out.
dV
dV
The bad thing about aways war is that it stop AI's and the game development as all. So if somebody(other team) manage to make succesive diplomantic develop soon this could win the competition. IMO the best time when we must turn to the peace path is when there is enough barbs cities to prevent AI rapid development. At this point we must make very aggresive diplomatic play to get some friends if possible or at least to divide the AI on two (maybe religious) teams.
And yes many small cities ant specialist at least till the turnaround point(the peace). And happiness before health resources.
And yes many small cities ant specialist at least till the turnaround point(the peace). And happiness before health resources.
da_Vinci
Gypsy Prince
Is looks like mining > agri beats agri > mining to the second tech by 4 turns. Why? Seems that most AI have or quickly research Agri. So by turn 12, I am getting 3 bpt to agri if not resarching it, and 6 bpt if I am reasarching it.
By contrast, mining gets 0 bpt to it if not researching it, and only one bpt if researching it (so it is not always +3 when resarching ... seems to be +1 when researching if 0 when not, and +3 researcing if more than 0 when not).
So, if you want two techs, and one gets free beakers, and one does not, do the free beaker tech last, and collect more free beakers.
Check to see if getting first farm a few turns earlier with agri first makes any difference (doubt it).
On the larger scene, are we thinking about this all wrong? If we were not allied with the barbs, how would we proceed? We would get BW, pottery, go explore and find civs, cottage up, expand, get alpha, and do some trading. We would conquer as needed by ourselves.
So, maybe we don't want to use the barbs as a war ally (they aren't great at fighting, and don't Civs get combat bonus against AI?). Maybe the twist of this game is that they serve us better as a peace ally? In one test, barbs founded cities on empty islands. Maybe the benefit of barb techs, and barb founded cities (counts to a dom win, right?) is their best use, rather than as an offensive force. The AI's worst nightmare must be barbs with tech parity, or even superiority, middle to late game.
So as an alternative to the IW and barb sword strategy, maybe there is an early peace, develop fast and use barbs to occupy uninhabited islands and give us some extra tech beakers. Advantage is less WW, and we make the AI declare on us. If we can get some to like us, then as AI have to declare on barbs, they start to dislike each other.
I recall that a Permanent alliance give you some diplo negatives with other civs ... do you suppose that we also have diplo negatives or being the only team in the game? Maybe diplomacy is a lost cause?
dV
By contrast, mining gets 0 bpt to it if not researching it, and only one bpt if researching it (so it is not always +3 when resarching ... seems to be +1 when researching if 0 when not, and +3 researcing if more than 0 when not).
So, if you want two techs, and one gets free beakers, and one does not, do the free beaker tech last, and collect more free beakers.
Check to see if getting first farm a few turns earlier with agri first makes any difference (doubt it).
On the larger scene, are we thinking about this all wrong? If we were not allied with the barbs, how would we proceed? We would get BW, pottery, go explore and find civs, cottage up, expand, get alpha, and do some trading. We would conquer as needed by ourselves.
So, maybe we don't want to use the barbs as a war ally (they aren't great at fighting, and don't Civs get combat bonus against AI?). Maybe the twist of this game is that they serve us better as a peace ally? In one test, barbs founded cities on empty islands. Maybe the benefit of barb techs, and barb founded cities (counts to a dom win, right?) is their best use, rather than as an offensive force. The AI's worst nightmare must be barbs with tech parity, or even superiority, middle to late game.
So as an alternative to the IW and barb sword strategy, maybe there is an early peace, develop fast and use barbs to occupy uninhabited islands and give us some extra tech beakers. Advantage is less WW, and we make the AI declare on us. If we can get some to like us, then as AI have to declare on barbs, they start to dislike each other.
I recall that a Permanent alliance give you some diplo negatives with other civs ... do you suppose that we also have diplo negatives or being the only team in the game? Maybe diplomacy is a lost cause?
dV
Lehm
Gypsy Jester
Mh, as most of us are for the worker first tactic I suggest I will log it in if nobody objects. (I would)
da_Vinci
Gypsy Prince
Are you saying play out your first 10 turns? I would like to hear from Thrallia, and would like to clarify where hellwitch is on the matter. But I'm guessing you would like to play out tonight, and how much time difference between you and east coast US ... 6 hours, right?
OK, why don't you start worker, and start research on mining, as that seems to be faster to the mining agri combination for reasons stated in my post. Scout around, upload after you finish your moves in turn we get mining, but before you hit end turn. Set research to agriculture, but don't advance the turn so we can discuss it one last time.
Be sure to switch to the bananas at turn 8 when the fat cross comes in (starting on the pighill, of course). Maxes worker speed and commerce.
Could you keep a list of how many beakers we are getting in the early techs each turn? I think we want to follow that for our tech decisions, and I want to see if the free beakers at that point are following my test.
Hopefully, no one will object as we can always put BW after Mining if we decide that way, and more scouting will help the decision.
Go for it, Lehm!
You posted this, but then I was not sure if you changed your mind. Could you clarify?
Oh, here is the updated sim chart.
dV
Attachments
Conquistador 63
Deity
@Lehm: if nothing unexpected arises I'd suggest you play up to worker is done (some 20 turns?). 10 turns is too little this early in the game, IMHO. Of course, pending dV's (and/or others) approval.
da_Vinci
Gypsy Prince
That is a good point ... here is what I suggest:
Lehm plays til we get mining. Upload, and discuss. If we still mostly prefer agriculture, that is 10 or 11 more turns and Lehm plays those too, first set 25 or 26.
BW next is 27 turns away after that, next person could play until that, then we continue with 20 or so each for the rest of the first inning.
dV
da_Vinci
Gypsy Prince
The fastest that I can get to IW if I skip agri and go mining, BW, IW (in an OCC model, maxing science at every turn) is turn 79.
In the worker first, mining, agri, BW model, it is 87 to 89 to get IW, 10 turns later. What we get for the 10 turns is several farms (don't see agri for free until turn 70, first farm turn 78). Early agri lets us max city pop rapidly, then stagnate city by building workers and settlers. After IW is done, the farms allow us to whip and recover faster. I think that is worth 10 turns later to IW. Then after IW we can clear the jungle, whip some WB to explore.
Even so, we seem to be pretty late getting those things done if we focus on IW first. Late getting cottages, late getting out exploring, etc.
I've simulated what the starting site can do. Might be worth playing the test map to include second city settling, with two options ... what if we make peace with all ASAP, and delay IW for pottery, wheel, etc? Compared to keep the war and go for IW. Which plan has us in better shape at say 0 AD?
dV
In the worker first, mining, agri, BW model, it is 87 to 89 to get IW, 10 turns later. What we get for the 10 turns is several farms (don't see agri for free until turn 70, first farm turn 78). Early agri lets us max city pop rapidly, then stagnate city by building workers and settlers. After IW is done, the farms allow us to whip and recover faster. I think that is worth 10 turns later to IW. Then after IW we can clear the jungle, whip some WB to explore.
Even so, we seem to be pretty late getting those things done if we focus on IW first. Late getting cottages, late getting out exploring, etc.
I've simulated what the starting site can do. Might be worth playing the test map to include second city settling, with two options ... what if we make peace with all ASAP, and delay IW for pottery, wheel, etc? Compared to keep the war and go for IW. Which plan has us in better shape at say 0 AD?
dV
I agree with worker first...your tests outweigh my ideas of how the extra commerce should have worked...with extra barb beakers giving us a substantial bonus on any early techs we research, it makes sense to go agri before BW and IW, and then it also makes sense to go ahead and worker first.
I think after BW, we should either head directly to IW, or detour to Wheel>Pottery(we'll be close to getting Wheel anyway from beakers) and work on our science rate.
Since it appears barb swords are much better than barb axes, what we research after BW seems to be the next junction where we need to decide how to proceed.
Interestingly, I rarely build a worker first in my solo games...perhaps I should reconsider this view?
edit: actually, if we are planning on finishing as fast as possible...should we run a specialist economy, rather than a cottage economy? That way our research is not tied to our economy, and from everything I've seen and heard, specialist economies are better in the first half of the game anyway.
I think after BW, we should either head directly to IW, or detour to Wheel>Pottery(we'll be close to getting Wheel anyway from beakers) and work on our science rate.
Since it appears barb swords are much better than barb axes, what we research after BW seems to be the next junction where we need to decide how to proceed.
Interestingly, I rarely build a worker first in my solo games...perhaps I should reconsider this view?
edit: actually, if we are planning on finishing as fast as possible...should we run a specialist economy, rather than a cottage economy? That way our research is not tied to our economy, and from everything I've seen and heard, specialist economies are better in the first half of the game anyway.
Similar threads
