SGOTM 05 - Gypsy Kings

[da_Vinci]

Ich bin sein Diener - I am his servant

I guess you wanted to say: "I am your servant" right?

That would be: "Ich bin dein Diener" oder "Ich bin ihr Diener"

As you can see, my German is as rusty as a nail in the dirt. "Dein Diener" is your singular, and "ihr diener" is your plural (English is ambigous about this), IIRC ... and ihr diener is also your singular in the polite form? (Or maybe not ... the fog of age ) Addendum: And Photo instead of Foto ... it has been too long!

We appear to have either a low resolution or a low color level picture.

Make another one from the game and save it as a bitmap ... now big is the file? My JPEGs are 100 to 200 KB IIRC?

Then try other formats ... look at the manage attachments window to see the accepted formats. It will take gif, jpeg, jpg, jpe. Maybe one of those will look better.

I think that mine go up as extension jpg, even though I call it a jpeg. I might have missled you with that.

dV

 

[Lehm]

Phew, hard work...

@R1 - There are not so many options for a shorter form of my nickname. It could be Le or Lh or Lm. Please feel free to chose one for me.

Now to the image: Settling in place would mean we will have a really low-productive city ( as expected ).

options we have now:
1. Settling 1S would give us the jungle hill while we still have the pigs and the banana (plus two tiles we can´t see at the moment). But we won´t have access to the ocean.

2. Settle 1SE to get the jungle hill but lose the banana

..or we could wait to check the surrounding what would cost us 2 rounds more until we can settle.

I have to say that I tend to settle 1S. We get all the ressources but lose the coast. So second city has to be a coastal one...

 

[Lehm]

Well, 5 years ago it was Photo... now it is Foto because some people in Germany think we have to upgrade our language. And you´re right... "Ihr" is both the polite 3rd person singular and the 2nd person plural

 

[da_Vinci]

If we were looking for seafood, and would have settled in place for seafood + pighill, why wouldn't we settle in place for banana + pighill? We can farm the banana for 4F after agric and before calendar, and mine the pighill.

So question is do we trade being a coastal city to get the jungle hill in the capital? The jungle hill could be worked by a second city later, and we can't work it until IW anyway. If not coastal, no lighthouse, so the coast then stunts growth.

We also need to consider crowding issues ... do we want to try to get a second city on this island? I assume we want a city to have land and coast tiles, and as few sea tiles as possible. In place is the coastal location with the most land in the FC ... is that useful?

I assume we don't want to settle on the pighill, or 1NW or 1E, as that is too much sea, and loses a forest. Well, maybe 1NW if there is seafood in the sea (we get the coast anyway if we settle in place), as that is seafood + banana + pighill.

I would not settle 1E even if there is seafood in the east fog, as that loses the banana, the forest, and adds sea tiles. So no need to explore east.

Only reason now to move the settler to the pighill is if we think we might settle 1N or 1 NW. I think 1N is out (pighill), 1NW might work if there is seafood north.

Other thought, is settle 2W if there is seafood west.

We could:

1. Settle in place now.

2. Settle 1S now.

3. Move settler to pighill if we are willing to settle 1NW if we find seafood.

4. Move settler 1SW and wait. then move scout W, then NE to forest.
From 1SW we can settle the in place, the 2W, the 1S on turn two, or 1NW forest on turn 3 (all relative to settler start).

Banana + seafood + pighill coastal looks like the ultimate city ... is that better than pighill + banana + junglehill, non coastal? If yes, then don't settle 1S just yet. If we prefer both hills in capital, then we can settle 1S now.

Time to debate!

Does the lack of blue circles 2W and 1NW suggest that there is no seafood north or west? If so, maybe our only decision is between 1 and 2.

dV

 

[da_Vinci]

@R1 - There are not so many options for a shorter form of my nickname. It could be Le or Lh or Lm. Please feel free to chose one for me.

Lm makes most sense to me, as to pronounce "Lm" comes out pretty close to pronouncing "Lehm", doesn't it?

dV

 

[hellwitch]

From what i see i think we must settle in place - this food can be turn in hammers when needed but the 2nd must be a production city. Not coastal capitol is not desirable as we will cut lots of oportunities - the harbour, the ligthhouse(we will still have 4 sea tiles) ,the colusus and so on. So 1S would not be a good city on arhipelago map. In other case 1S is good city side.

 

[Conquistador 63]

I agree with hw, settle in place. We can mine (or pasture it later) the pighill and farm banana and research mining/BW for slavery hammers. There is also chance of getting seafood in fat cross (2N & N/NW). Trust the blue circle

How about 1st build? I tried worker 1st in the test save yesterday only to find out he would be idle most of the early game. Does settler first make sense?

p.s. my dual install is ok - but I did have problems patching Warlords to 2.13 due to stupid local distributor of the game inserting some bad cd-checking routine. I had an issue before when going to 2.08 and had to resort to unofficial .exe file. Well, at least it's not an issue for this game.

 

[hellwitch]

Few thoughts:
1st Settler is intresting idea as we will be protected by the barbs and we dont need warrior for the first settler. The bad thing is that we really need worker in time for BW. By my calc. 1 worker need 23 t. while BW will need around 37-39(it depends if the barb reseach same thech as us). So in not very strict calc. - after the worker is out it will have 16-14 turn with only 1 aviliable hill for mining.This mean aroung 7-9 idle worker turns. 1Settler means 38 turn - on BW we will need another 23 to get the first worker. The early 2nd town also mean earlier research slow.
Well IMO we need IW before second town because of the jungle.
All my calc. are based on settling in place without any other resources in the FC.

 

[da_Vinci]

If I understand this right, the barbs get beakers each turn toward each tech that any AI knows, (perhaps one beaker per AI that knows it, or some similar formula?) So maybe the barbs are researching several techs at once? If so, perhaps the way to keep the early worker busy is to first get mining, then check to see if the barb research has made other first column techs very close, like agri or wheel. If only a short detour, we could quickly pick up agri, then farm the bananas, maybe even the river plains (one more hammer) if the worker is otherwise idle. Or if wheel is close, we could pre-road our current and future city.

Also, how reliable are the blue circles? Is it worth moving 1SW and waiting for the second scout move, in case seafood is out there? But since we don't start with fishing, we can't work the water tiles or build the workboat right away anyway, so maybe the seafood is less help than ususal at the start? It still might be the best play long term, if it is there (if the blue circle is wrong).

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

My test map was pretty close.

I agree with settle in place! I think worker 1st is the best bet.

In a hurry, will have more later.

 

[Lehm]

If there was seafood in the north wouldn´t we see another blue circle?

I built the settler first in my test game but I don´t think it was a good decision because the second city had to be placed in a total jungle surrounding. To settle the second city just slowed down my research.

I suggest to build a warrior first to let the city grow on the one hand and to let the warrior fogbust so that the barbs don´t appear on our island where we don´t need them.

As as I understood right most of us are for settling in place right now. Is that correct?

 

[da_Vinci]

If there was seafood in the north wouldn´t we see another blue circle?

I built the settler first in my test game but I don´t think it was a good decision because the second city had to be placed in a total jungle surrounding. To settle the second city just slowed down my research.

I suggest to build a warrior first to let the city grow on the one hand and to let the warrior fogbust so that the barbs don´t appear on our island where we don´t need them.

As as I understood right most of us are for settling in place right now. Is that correct?

I prefer settle in place to 1S as I think we want to be coastal.

I agree that if we trust the blue circles, then settle in place. But will we kick ourselves if seafood shows up in the west, or in the sea north (coast north we already have if settle in place)?

Is there an upper limit on the number of barbs at one time? Maybe it is a proportion of the world population? If so, fogbusting our island makes sense, but if the islands are small, maybe our scout could do that? If he is not enough, then maybe a warrior makes sense.

We are in no hurry, so let's think this through more before we proceed.

dV

PS: Somebody else has my avatar! Look in the GOTM 21 pregame ... never thought I would see the day! I may be changing mine because of that ... I have found a great photo of a model of da Vinci's tank!

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

From my (boring) test game and from reading that other thread, I believe that barbs get free beakers for tech known by a given % (at least half?) the AIs. For instance, even buddhism was founded by someone else we got no beakers towards meditation for a long while. Also I don't think that they research before they have a city themselves. But yes, archery is the fastest "auto-tech" from the start. Maybe because in Monarch all AIs start with it?

Also IIRC, I read that barbs can spawn in our field of vision so fogbusting wouldn't matter. We could build start building a warrior for MP later on (or barracks) if we want pop growth. Or better yet, insert a cheap worker tech (agri or wheel?) before BW to keep worker busy. I tend to the latter.

 

[hellwitch]

I just want to say that baracks is better vs warrior because we will not need the warrior as there is no near threat. And with agressive leader the barracks are with 50% cheeper. Ofcorce we could stop the barrack to make perfect timing for the worker.

 

[Lehm]

agreed to the barracks. I totally forgot that option.

Now I remember a barb archer spawned in my territory in my test game. I just wasn´t sure if I didn´t see him the rounds before but anyway ... so fogbusting doesn´t make sense.

So where are we now?
- Settling in place
- Set tech path to bronze
- first build: barracks to let city grow to size 2 - then worker ( or even finish the barracks... let´s see)

 

[Lehm]

PS: Somebody else has my avatar! Look in the GOTM 21 pregame ... never thought I would see the day! I may be changing mine because of that ... I have found a great photo of a model of da Vinci's tank!

dV

I already read it in an other post. But hey, I think I like your new logo more... good choice

 

[da_Vinci]

agreed to the barracks. I totally forgot that option.

Now I remember a barb archer spawned in my territory in my test game. I just wasn´t sure if I didn´t see him the rounds before but anyway ... so fogbusting doesn´t make sense.

So where are we now?
- Settling in place
- Set tech path to bronze
- first build: barracks to let city grow to size 2 - then worker ( or even finish the barracks... let´s see)

We are planning to mine the pighill, at least to begin with, right? So why don't we want the worker first, then the barracks? Is it to get the early pop growth first? If mining will be done before the worker if we start the worker first, how is getting the mine up ASAP not the best way to go?

If we make the worker first he may have some idle turns ( but if we detour to agri or wheel, maybe not so much), but if we make the barracks first, we also have no worker for as many turns as it takes to make the barracks, which in a sense is more idle worker turns, isn't it?

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

I would still prefer worker 1st then insert cheap worker tech before bronze. But if settling in place reveals sea resource 2N, this could also change.

 

[da_Vinci]

I would still prefer worker 1st then insert cheap worker tech before bronze. But if settling in place reveals sea resource 2N, this could also change.

That is my line of thinking too. A turn with a worker idle is the same as a turn with a worker not built, so I guess I don't quite see why building him later solves the idle worker issue.

If we build the worker after we get to pop 2, does having the extra pop earlier make that much difference? Especially if that delays mining the pighill?

As always, I could be wrong, and could be persuaded by a good argument. C63 and R1 have been persuading me for years! (well, months then)

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

I prefer worker first for the same reasons, basically we need to work improved tiles as soon as possible. If we need another worker tech to avoid to much idle time, I think we try to grab Ag or Wheel, and then Bronze.