SGOTM 05 - Gypsy Kings

[Ronnie1]

Nice work gs!!

The roster order is

Lehm - in the hole
Conquistador 63 - waiting
hellwitch - waiting
da_Vinci - waiting
Thrallia - waiting
g_storrow - just played
Scout 214 - UP NOW
Ronnie1 - on deck

 

[da_Vinci]

yes I was worried for a moment also but I didnt finish the turn I saved.
I uploaded so th turn is there I think we go with 3 pop and when we hit WW3 jsut work the 2 hammer tiles. and starve ourselves.

I'm not at the game, but if WW is 2 and pop is 2, then we have 5 and 4 in Besh now I assume.

THAT MEANS THAT WE CANNOT GO TO POP 3 ... unless we make peace with a lot of AI right now! Which we may not be able to do ...

This is what hw has been telling us, and he is right. Why can't we go to pop 3? We have a marigin of one happy face, don't we?

The problem is that going to pop 3 will likely add two unhappy faces at once, giving us an idle worker!, as I stated in this post:

Most important is when it hits +2 in Besh, but keep a record of all cities.

It is population dependent. The same state of war will be 2WW in a pop 4 city, 4WW in a pop 8 city, 3WW in a pop 6 city, and if it rounds up, probably 3WW in a pop 5 city as well.

That is hw's point, that adding one pop might add both a crowding face, and a WW face to what is already in the city.

dV

In this game where WW may be a persistent issue, this is something we all need to understand.

Here is the war academy on WW:

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/war_weariness.php

here is an excerpt from it ...

"So the "simple" formula seems to be:

WW Unhappiness in a City=
Pop x Active WW/200
x (100% -25%(Jail)-25%(Rushmore)-50%(Police State) )
x World Size Modifier
__Duel=150%
__Tiny=130%
__Small=110%
__Standard=90%
__Large=70%
__Huge=50%
x 50% if Multiplayer game
x 50% if Always War or Permanent War/Peace Options
x AIs Modifier (100% at Settler..10% lower for each level up)
x (100+AI Per Era Modifier * Era)% [-1 for every Level above Noble]
0 if you are a Barbarian

Active WW = sum of all WW from all living teams that you are at war with"

So the number of WW in a city is proportional to the pop size.

Pop X ActiveWW/200 X "other stuff" is a simpler version.

Rearrange that to Pop X (active WW X stuff) / 200

Our WW in Besh is 2 at pop 2, therefore our active WW X stuff = 200, or more correctly, someting between 150 and 249.

In that case, we get 2 * 200/200 = 2,

or 2* 0.75 = 1.5 which rounds to 2,

or 2*1.245 = 2.49 which rounds to 2, unless anything over 2 becomes 3 (the ceiling function, I think).

Since we just got to WW = 2, assume that our active WW * stuff is 150. What happens when we go to pop 3?

3* 150/200 = 2.25 Now if that is interpreted as a 3 because it is over 2, then pop 3 will mean WW of 3, and with 3 from crowding, 6 with only 5 . One idle worker, no food in the bin, and no way we can get to mids.

If it only rounds to 3 at 2.50, then we are still precariously close to that at 2.25, and if we are still losing barbs, we could get there pretty quick.

So unless we can discern what function converts 2.xx in to an interger (floor, round, or ceiling), I think growing to pop 3 is too big a risk, unless we can make enough peace to get WW to at least 1 (if not 0) right now.

dV

 

[Scout214]

Unless there is a reason to wait for discussion on something, I'll jump in and play tonight. I'll have dV on the phone while I do so. If something comes up during the turn set that necessitates stopping to refer to everyone, then I'll save it so we can all see where we are at that point. Otherwise, I'll have my set done later tonight.

 

[Scout214]

There's an Iron site down where the Bridge City site is at the SE corner of the island. Should we give precedence to that site or still go for the western location preferentially?

The island to the SE also has an iron site there. None that we can see on the island to the west.

Also, Alex has a galley with an archer and settler on the north coast of the island to the SE of us.

 

[Scout214]

Doing the math, it makes no sense at all to allow the Pop to grow to 3 at the moment.

 

[Scout214]

I stopped when we got the Settler because there is a question about which port city to do, west or east. It does not appear that the Barbarians putting a city down in either place is going to happen.

That question is now further complicated by the appearance of Saladin on our coast, which just occurred, in the SW corner of the island. One galley loaded with an archer and a settler.

We are about to finish a barracks in Turfan but have no garrison there.

Shifted city worker in Karakorum from the pigs to the horses (we have a pasture now) to speed up chariot from 8 to 6 turns. Can't do 4 (pigs and horses) because we have only 1 food stored there and food prod would be -1). We finish the connecting road between Turfan and Karakorum next turn. Just started Library there but can easily change to chariot or whatever other troop everyone thinks we should make in a hurry.

Copper and road connection are done.

Sent worker down isthmus to help with chopping but building roads as he goes. Halfway to the stone quarry. Quarry is road linked to Beshbalik.

Forest 1E pre-chopped. Forest 1S of Iron chopped, worker just got to the other forest down there. No new forests.

Mids in 25 turns, to be sped up with chopping. Did not allow Pop to go to 3. No one would make peace anyway.

Alex started city on island SE of us, in NW corner. Just out of sight.

Barbarians now have 7 archers, 7 warriors, 6 swordsmen, 4 axemen. They have been attacking Bombay (Asoka) and CAPTURED Edo (Tokugawa)! (All the more reason not to make peace.) They have started one city, near Bombay.

We still need a road E of the Mtn to connect Karakorum to Beshbalik, as well as the 1 1/2 tiles on the isthmus.

Finished Writing, started Mathematics. We may need Sailing sooner than expected. Only 10 turns to research right now.

Good stopping point to discuss where to put city, putting garrisons in them, Saladin's threat to put a city on our island, etc.

The game is uploaded at BC 595.

 

[da_Vinci]

Scout214 and I looked at the g_s save and there was no practical way at pop three to work more than gold and stone consistently. At best, could have gotten 14 additional hammers alternating the rice and forest, but that would have meant running the risk of WW moving to 3, idling a worker, and adding some 8 turns to the finish. So we felt that proceeding with pop 2 option was the best, as it did not require making peace yet.

This was rewarded by the barbs capturing Edo from Japan. Only got 26 from the one distant forest chop, maybe only 20 from the next one ... I figure mids is 20 turns away without a whip, maybe 17 with a final whip ... due about turn 144. Keep your fingers crossed!

dV

 

[Thrallia]

I think we'll get it...we are ahead of Qin for it, definitely, since he was working on the Oracle and has no stone

Toku and Asoka are gonna be too busy with the barbs, Alex doesn't tend to put an emphasis on wonders, Izzy doesn't either(at least, non-religious wonders), and doesn't have any production other than those forests that she won't chop.

Another good reason to have peaced Alex, is that he and the other AI on the continent would have started getting mutual war bonuses against us. Now he's out of the loop there, even if the others aren't.

After Math, should we go for Construction, or beeline to CS? cats or half of Maces?

 

[da_Vinci]

First, we need to be sure the Arab archer in the boat does not get to our cities. Move scout to Turfan, move Karak warrior to Turfan, make Chariot in Karak, switch to horse + pighill after we stock some food this turn. Turfan builds axe or sword after barracks in 1 turn. Or archer or chariot if we need something faster. Chariot can run to Besh if boat goes that way.

Where do we settle next? West coast has more food, but SE has the iron. Also, SE bridges to a spot with silver ... more happiness, esp after forges at some point. But that island to the west has an awesome city spot: S of horses ... horse + 4 hills and two seafood, IIRC.

We could potentially kill off Alex first, and bridge to mainland his way. Then later bridge west as well and pincers the mainland with two armies.

We might want sailing soon, so we can send troops to the mainland to threaten some AI into peace. I'd vote const after math unless sailing, as I think we might get mileage with cats + swords against Alex. I think I like math > sailing > const, with a SE settle for iron and bridge, send swords to take the silver island.

dV

 

[Lehm]

Before we decide what to develope next we should talk about our overall tactic. In my opinion we should attack Saladin first, keep the capital while destroying the rest. Then we could directly go to destroy the main continent keeping as much cities as our economy allows it WITHOUT COURTHOUSES. The thing is that it costs too much time to build the courthouses. We better built units in the time. It´s not too bad to raze some cities because the barbs will fill the land with cities too what counts to our land area. When we are almost done with the continent we will build settlers settlers and then settlers and then we will spawn them everywhere to reach the domination limit. As the pop limit could be a problem due to our small cities we should make peace with Alex and Qin as soon as possible because we don´t wont to attack them anyway as there is no need to.

I started some calculation to become aware of how the barb´s cities do influence our land area. But it´s a bit confusing.
By now Cyrus is first in size with 7,00% and I counted his country with 77 tiles. We on our own have 47 tiles and the barbs 22, 1 from Edo and 21 from Polynesia. Together we have 6,38% of the world´s land mass. If we trust the 77 tiles of Cyrus and the 7,00% there should be exactly 1000 tiles as 100%. But then I am not sure how the barbs influence our percentage. It can´t count by 100% because in this case there have to be about 1081 tiles.

So, all in all, I think we should go for construction, then Sailing and then it doesn´t matter. Of course maceman would be next goal but we don´t need them if we are fast enough.

 

[Lehm]

Oh, and I counted the tiles of the land which we see now.

Our island - 78 tiles
big continent - 672 tiles
Saladin - 87 tiles
island west to us - 22
Qin - 141 tiles
island SE (where Alex has the city now) - 28 tiles
island in the E - 8 tiles

and then there is some other stuff.

The important thing is that the big continent has by far enough tiles to support the domination limit and we also have some islands close to us to be able to spawn settlers very fast.

So what do you guys think about the plan? Bad thing which could happen is that Alex is going to declare war on us again as he is coming closer to us. So we still need some defence on our island. Good thing is that we can react early as we can see how many units the AI has on board their ships and how many.

 

[Conquistador 63]

I started some calculation to become aware of how the barb´s cities do influence our land area. But it´s a bit confusing.
By now Cyrus is first in size with 7,00% and I counted his country with 77 tiles. We on our own have 47 tiles and the barbs 22, 1 from Edo and 21 from Polynesia. Together we have 6,38% of the world´s land mass. If we trust the 77 tiles of Cyrus and the 7,00% there should be exactly 1000 tiles as 100%. But then I am not sure how the barbs influence our percentage. It can´t count by 100% because in this case there have to be about 1081 tiles.

If 77 is 7%, 100% is 1100, not 1000. 1100 or 1081 must be a matter of rounding. BTW if he had 76 tiles/7% then 100% would be 1085. Are you sure you counted it right? Also, in your other post the sum is 1046, not counting "other stuff". So, 1080~1100 must be the total.

All in all, I believe barb tiles count 100% towards our dom limit.

 

[Conquistador 63]

Shifted city worker in Karakorum from the pigs to the horses (we have a pasture now) to speed up chariot from 8 to 6 turns. Can't do 4 (pigs and horses) because we have only 1 food stored there and food prod would be -1).

I just opened the save. I'm confused with this statement. Karak is at pop2 and can support pig/horses and still have +1 food. I'd build axes right now, for defense or to capture Saladin's to-be-founded-city in our island.

Barbarians now have 7 archers, 7 warriors, 6 swordsmen, 4 axemen. They have been attacking Bombay (Asoka) and CAPTURED Edo (Tokugawa)! (All the more reason not to make peace.) They have started one city, near Bombay.

I assume you're talking about Polynesian, the city they founded a few turnsets before?

On overall strategy, are we sure that conquest wouldn't be easier/faster to achieve than domination? Because it seems to me that Qin can be reached without Astro, using a city bridge in the small island (N of clams) to the NE of Karak. For that maybe cats/axes/swords is enough?



That been said, I agree with going for Sal next, and still prefer the western bridge city. I believe that the iron to the SE will be eventually in Besh's cultural radius.

Another question is what to do with GProphet we'll get soon. I'd love to lightbulb CoL, but as we have masonry that won't be possible. Just settle him in Karak then?

 

[hellwitch]

Well i'm for the West Bridge city as it is closer to the Continent and bettet city spot as well. In that case Sal attack will go there and he will be more predictable. We will need as many spears as axes because Sal has horses(=charriots) in the near turns. IMO as Sailing will come somewhere near the start of Construction we don't need ot for now. Other thing - we may need Monoteism before finishing Construction because we will get grat propet very soon. I Want Teo because the +1 from the religion and mostly because Teocracy(+2 exp) which will count for our navy too. Other techs for Teology we will get for free.
For the battle plan: as some may underestimate navy in the begining will be most important. Because without sea supriority we will tremble for each full galley we send.

 

[da_Vinci]

I just opened the save. I'm confused with this statement. Karak is at pop2 and can support pig/horses and still have +1 food. I'd build axes right now, for defense or to capture Saladin's to-be-founded-city in our island.

I assume you're talking about Polynesian, the city they founded a few turnsets before?

Re Chariots and MM in Karak: S2 and I must have had a mutual hallucination! I think I clicked off the rice, making a citizen specialist, then saw the starvation and forgot I was not on the pig and horse both yet. Your are right, we can work both.

Chariot just in case the archer unloads near Besh ... I want something that can get there fast. I agree all axes after that.

If we wait for Besh to reach the iron, that will be two more expansions if I am seeing this right ... do we want to wait that long? But I agree, a city for that iron is a dog of a city (but maybe not so much if all we can get is pop 2 anyway?).

I am expecting mids in 17 turns ... maybe R1 plays to that point?

dV

 

[da_Vinci]

Well i'm for the West Bridge city as it is closer to the Continent and bettet city spot as well. In that case Sal attack will go there and he will be more predictable. We will need as many spears as axes because Sal has horses(=charriots) in the near turns. IMO as Sailing will come somewhere near the start of Construction we don't need ot for now. Other thing - we may need Monoteism before finishing Construction because we will get grat propet very soon. I Want Teo because the +1 from the religion and mostly because Teocracy(+2 exp) which will count for our navy too. Other techs for Teology we will get for free.
For the battle plan: as some may underestimate navy in the begining will be most important. Because without sea supriority we will tremble for each full galley we send.

The west coast and the horse city on the west island will be good production cities if we can ever get WW under control. So if we don't mind wating for swords, go west young man!

Not much interest in the silver island?

dV

 

[Lehm]

If 77 is 7%, 100% is 1100, not 1000.

Oops, actually I am not bad in maths. Next time I will take a calculator also for easy calculations... Of course you are right and then it´s just a question of rounding...

 

[Lehm]

For the battle plan: as some may underestimate navy in the begining will be most important. Because without sea supriority we will tremble for each full galley we send.

But there aren´t any triremes in the game. And we won´t send too much full galleys at all. They will hold there "bridge" - positions just to get the units to the next island. So for the main continent we need only two galleys. But of course it would be wise to have some more for protection.

 

[Lehm]

On overall strategy, are we sure that conquest wouldn't be easier/faster to achieve than domination? Because it seems to me that Qin can be reached without Astro, using a city bridge in the small island (N of clams) to the NE of Karak. For that maybe cats/axes/swords is enough?

I am not sure, but I never tried conquest before. I am a domination victory player. Would it cost a lot of time to send our units to every island on the world. For me it just seemed very easy to conquer the big continent and then settle everywhere on it. But of course at the same time it could be faster to attack the rest of the world.

 

[da_Vinci]

We could try bombarding AI cities and killing all but one unit, leave a cat and a protector to keep the culture defense at 0, and see if the barbs will take it. If that works, then the dom might be very fast!

dV