SGOTM 05 - Gypsy Kings

[hellwitch]

As far as science is concerned, as this is monarch, I highly doubt we can conquer the world with swords and cats(which would require us to finish before longbows, basically).

Well this is simply not true. The longbows means that you need more cats(2-3 suicidal cats per city are enough).
Also if you look at the saves the AI's are backwards in Tech so i dont think we must fear from longbows soon. (I think that the AI's don't have monarchy yet)

About East bridge - i dont like this spot at all. IMO Alex culture will make a culture bridge in its own and we dont need this town.
About the other sports - The Claims S from WBridge is better but it is not impresive too as it will nearly pay for itself it tech term(and this will be after the library)

The best spot we have is on the west island S of the horses.: it have 2 sea foods,1 horse ,4 hills ,2 river tiles, closer to the mainland, coastal and future access to sugar(The Barbs research on calendar is growing as i see on the latest save). A city on this spot can be production or sience with a simple switch of the worked tiles(or hireing scientist) aslo in a non WW future this town could be our best city. This city will be a big step in helping the barbs in Polynesian afer some time as it is very close to it. And pay attention on the goody hut - this could be a real trsure if we are lucky(~5-10% chance) - it can give us a tech. I found in a lot of game that if we switch the reasearch to a tech(without breaker on it) the cheance of geting exactly this tech from a goody hut is very high(if a free tech happend) so it is possible to get very exensive tech(low chances as i said but possible).

And one remind: Our UU is the Keshik(HA). We will start to get free breakers on HR soon. So in ~50-100 turns we can use some Keshik to make some chaos on the mainland. A good strategy for the keshiks is to move them in couples.

 

[Conquistador 63]

About East bridge - i dont like this spot at all. IMO Alex culture will make a culture bridge in its own and we dont need this town.

Although I agree with most of hw's ideas, I can assure you that on Civ4 vanilla you cannot enter a ocean tile with a galley unless it is in your cultural borders, or in a civ's cultural borders who has open borders with you. Even if we managed to get OB from Alex at some point (highly unlikely), the moment we declared we wouldn't be able to reach him anymore. Unless it has changed in 1.74 (which I doubt). On Warlords you still can enter enemy culturally-controlled ocean tiles with galleys, IIRC. This issue was noted and discussed in previous games, like GOTM14.

Unless someone proves me wrong, or we decide to give up going for Alex and his mids, we still need that crappy east bridge city.

p.s. @dV: don't be so harsh on yourself, I made even more wrong moves in my turnset! I meant just a little constructive criticism, and to give Thrallia a few hints so he could clean up your mess, as he has promised before!

 

[hellwitch]

Although I agree with most of hw's ideas, I can assure you that on Civ4 vanilla you cannot enter a ocean tile with a galley unless it is in your cultural borders, or in a civ's cultural borders who has open borders with you. Even if we managed to get OB from Alex at some point (highly unlikely), the moment we declared we wouldn't be able to reach him anymore. Unless it has changed in 1.74 (which I doubt). On Warlords you still can enter enemy culturally-controlled ocean tiles with galleys, IIRC. This issue was noted and discussed in previous games, like GOTM14.

Unless someone proves me wrong, or we decide to give up going for Alex and his mids, we still need that crappy east bridge city.

p.s. @dV: don't be so harsh on yourself, I made even more wrong moves in my turnset! I meant just a little constructive criticism, and to give Thrallia a few hints so he could clean up your mess, as he has promised before!

Ok. But i don't want to settle East Bridge for now. I prefer the west island first.

 

[Ronnie1]

Eastbridge will need time for the cultural borders to pop. If the barbs are researching Calendar as someone said, we will want it before Henge is obsolete.

 

[da_Vinci]

Then there is the question of whether we want iron or not. IIRC, the latest Besh expansion did not put the iron in our border. So Eastbridge is not just for reaching alex, but also for getting iron sooner. Or do we not want swords?

@ C63: I knew you didn't have ill intentions ... still, I am shocked at myself for the number and variety of gaffes I made that turnset! I suspect Thrallia won't let me live it down!

dV

 

[Thrallia]

Set played...

Summary:

• I think we should consider turning the second citizen into a scientist as well...it'd leave Karak at stagnant level at happy cap, and increase our time to Alpha from 56 to 41 turns. I personally think Besh should also host scientists, while West Bridge and Turfan produce our troops and East Bridge builds our galleys(which it can do at a pace of 6 hammers once we mine the iron)
• We should prepare to attack Mecca as soon as we see a couple galleys leave it with troops. He had 3 galleys he could send to attack us, and when he does, Mecca will be quite ripe for the picking.
• Notably: the AI doesn't gain mutual war bonuses for war against us because of our barb alliance...I'd be willing to bet they aren't allowed to declare a war against us either.
• Max sustainable research is 30% so we need to hire scientists in Karak and in Besh to improve our science rate provided we decide science is needed
• I think we should decide whether we need to do anymore research or not. I think we do, if not to reach Maces, then to reach CoL ASAP. If not, then we need to deassign any scientists and go all out war with no regard to science...although that will make it very difficult to reach a domination win.

Turn 0(350AD): Switch West Bridge from Spear to Barracks(7 turns) Go ahead and leave Karak with a scientist since in two turns we can whip anyway.
IBT: Saladin amphibiously attacked our Axe on the rice with 2 HA and an Archer. Killed the archer and 1 HA, the other HA killed our axe.
Turn 1(365AD): Spear killed the archer that was dropped with the HA on the rice. Axe died attacking the HA(70.3% chance of win)
IBT: Saladin's HA attacked West Bridge and lost, upgraded Archer to CG2
Turn 2(380AD): Whip settler in Karak
IBT: Nothing
Turn 3(395AD): Clearing Jungle around Turfan. Galley finishes in Besh...catapult started. Axe started in Karak
IBT: Nothing
Turn 4(410AD): Check Diplo screens...no one will currently give peace at all...Izzy is sending troops to Polynesian
IBT: Saladin founds Bursa on the tip of our continent S of Westbridge
Turn 5(425AD): Destroy Bursa, gain 1 gold
IBT: Barbs fail to take a worker from Alex(argh!) and Izzy destroys Polynesian Horses
Turn 6(440AD): East Bridge founded, only argument against it was Alex's culture creating a bridge, but since that won't happen in Vanilla, went ahead and founded it to get faster bridges up
IBT: Barbs kill Izzy's HA that was pillaging
Turn 7(455AD): Karak finishes Axe, starts another axe
IBT: Izzy loses the other two troops she sent to the barbs
Turn 8(470AD): Scout Mecca's defenses...it'll be tough to crack...2 axes, 2 HA, 1 Archer and 40% defense
IBT: Nothing
Turn 9(485AD): MM citizens
IBT: Nothing
Turn 10(500AD): Karak grows to size 3, I assign a Scientist, left Karak on max food.

Spoiler upload log :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 350 AD to 500 AD:

Turn 190, 350 AD: Christianity has spread in Karakorum.
Turn 190, 350 AD: Logging Game to File: autolog.txt
Turn 190, 350 AD: Saladin's Archer (3.30) vs Temujin's Axeman (8.00)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Combat Odds: 0.6%
Turn 190, 350 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 190, 350 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 190, 350 AD: (Amphibious Attack: +50%)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Temujin's Axeman has defeated Saladin's Archer!
Turn 190, 350 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer (6.60) vs Temujin's Axeman (8.00)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Combat Odds: 26.8%
Turn 190, 350 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 190, 350 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 190, 350 AD: (Amphibious Attack: +50%)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Temujin's Axeman has defeated Saladin's Horse Archer!
Turn 190, 350 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer (6.60) vs Temujin's Axeman (2.24)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Combat Odds: 99.9%
Turn 190, 350 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 190, 350 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 190, 350 AD: (Amphibious Attack: +50%)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 22 (6/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer has defeated Temujin's Axeman!

Turn 191, 365 AD: Temujin's Spearman (4.80) vs Saladin's Archer (3.00)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Combat Odds: 94.1%
Turn 191, 365 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Temujin's Spearman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Temujin's Spearman is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Temujin's Spearman has defeated Saladin's Archer!
Turn 191, 365 AD: Temujin's Axeman (6.00) vs Saladin's Horse Archer (5.21)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Combat Odds: 70.8%
Turn 191, 365 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer has defeated Temujin's Axeman!
Turn 191, 365 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer (4.17) vs Temujin's Archer (7.05)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Combat Odds: 3.5%
Turn 191, 365 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 22 (36/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 22 (14/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Temujin's Archer has defeated Saladin's Horse Archer!

Turn 192, 380 AD: You have trained a Settler in Karakorum. Work has now begun on a Axeman.
Turn 192, 380 AD: You have trained a Spearman in Turfan Hammers. Work has now begun on a Christian Temple.

Turn 193, 395 AD: Merit Ptah has been born in Mecca!

Turn 194, 410 AD: Cyrus adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 195, 425 AD: Saladin's Galley (2.00) vs Temujin's Galley (2.40)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Combat Odds: 27.2%
Turn 195, 425 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 195, 425 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Saladin's Galley is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Temujin's Galley is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Saladin's Galley is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Saladin's Galley is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Saladin's Galley is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Temujin's Galley is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Saladin's Galley is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Temujin's Galley has defeated Saladin's Galley!
Turn 195, 425 AD: Archimedes has been born in a far away land!

Turn 196, 440 AD: Temujin's Axeman (5.50) vs Saladin's Archer (3.97)
Turn 196, 440 AD: Combat Odds: 84.3%
Turn 196, 440 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 196, 440 AD: (City Defense: +95%)
Turn 196, 440 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 21 (47/100HP)
Turn 196, 440 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 21 (26/100HP)
Turn 196, 440 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 21 (5/100HP)
Turn 196, 440 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 196, 440 AD: Temujin's Axeman has defeated Saladin's Archer!
Turn 196, 440 AD: You have captured Basra!!!
Turn 196, 440 AD: You have pillaged 1 ? from the destruction of Basra!!!
Turn 196, 440 AD: Turfan has been founded.
Turn 196, 440 AD: You have trained a Axeman in Karakorum. Work has now begun on a Axeman.
Turn 196, 440 AD: You have constructed a Barracks in West Bridge Ham. Work has now begun on a Spearman.

Turn 198, 470 AD: Karakorum will grow to size 3 on the next turn

Turn 199, 485 AD: Karakorum has grown to size 3

 

[Ronnie1]

The roster order is

Lehm - waiting
Conquistador 63 - waiting
hellwitch - waiting
da_Vinci - waiting
Thrallia - just played
g_storrow - UP NOW
Scout 214 - on deck
Ronnie1 - in the hole

 

[hellwitch]

Set played...

Summary:

• I think we should consider turning the second citizen into a scientist as well...it'd leave Karak at stagnant level at happy cap, and increase our time to Alpha from 56 to 41 turns. I personally think Besh should also host scientists, while West Bridge and Turfan produce our troops and East Bridge builds our galleys(which it can do at a pace of 6 hammers once we mine the iron)
• We should prepare to attack Mecca as soon as we see a couple galleys leave it with troops. He had 3 galleys he could send to attack us, and when he does, Mecca will be quite ripe for the picking.
• Notably: the AI doesn't gain mutual war bonuses for war against us because of our barb alliance...I'd be willing to bet they aren't allowed to declare a war against us either.
• Max sustainable research is 30% so we need to hire scientists in Karak and in Besh to improve our science rate provided we decide science is needed
• I think we should decide whether we need to do anymore research or not. I think we do, if not to reach Maces, then to reach CoL ASAP. If not, then we need to deassign any scientists and go all out war with no regard to science...although that will make it very difficult to reach a domination win.

Turn 0(350AD): Switch West Bridge from Spear to Barracks(7 turns) Go ahead and leave Karak with a scientist since in two turns we can whip anyway.
IBT: Saladin amphibiously attacked our Axe on the rice with 2 HA and an Archer. Killed the archer and 1 HA, the other HA killed our axe.
Turn 1(365AD): Spear killed the archer that was dropped with the HA on the rice. Axe died attacking the HA(70.3% chance of win)
IBT: Saladin's HA attacked West Bridge and lost, upgraded Archer to CG2
Turn 2(380AD): Whip settler in Karak
IBT: Nothing
Turn 3(395AD): Clearing Jungle around Turfan. Galley finishes in Besh...catapult started. Axe started in Karak
IBT: Nothing
Turn 4(410AD): Check Diplo screens...no one will currently give peace at all...Izzy is sending troops to Polynesian
IBT: Saladin founds Bursa on the tip of our continent S of Westbridge
Turn 5(425AD): Destroy Bursa, gain 1 gold
IBT: Barbs fail to take a worker from Alex(argh!) and Izzy destroys Polynesian Horses
Turn 6(440AD): East Bridge founded, only argument against it was Alex's culture creating a bridge, but since that won't happen in Vanilla, went ahead and founded it to get faster bridges up
IBT: Barbs kill Izzy's HA that was pillaging
Turn 7(455AD): Karak finishes Axe, starts another axe
IBT: Izzy loses the other two troops she sent to the barbs
Turn 8(470AD): Scout Mecca's defenses...it'll be tough to crack...2 axes, 2 HA, 1 Archer and 40% defense
IBT: Nothing
Turn 9(485AD): MM citizens
IBT: Nothing
Turn 10(500AD): Karak grows to size 3, I assign a Scientist, left Karak on max food.

Spoiler upload log :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 350 AD to 500 AD:

Turn 190, 350 AD: Christianity has spread in Karakorum.
Turn 190, 350 AD: Logging Game to File: autolog.txt
Turn 190, 350 AD: Saladin's Archer (3.30) vs Temujin's Axeman (8.00)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Combat Odds: 0.6%
Turn 190, 350 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 190, 350 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 190, 350 AD: (Amphibious Attack: +50%)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Temujin's Axeman has defeated Saladin's Archer!
Turn 190, 350 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer (6.60) vs Temujin's Axeman (8.00)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Combat Odds: 26.8%
Turn 190, 350 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 190, 350 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 190, 350 AD: (Amphibious Attack: +50%)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Temujin's Axeman has defeated Saladin's Horse Archer!
Turn 190, 350 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer (6.60) vs Temujin's Axeman (2.24)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Combat Odds: 99.9%
Turn 190, 350 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 190, 350 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 190, 350 AD: (Amphibious Attack: +50%)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 22 (6/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 190, 350 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer has defeated Temujin's Axeman!

Turn 191, 365 AD: Temujin's Spearman (4.80) vs Saladin's Archer (3.00)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Combat Odds: 94.1%
Turn 191, 365 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Temujin's Spearman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Temujin's Spearman is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Temujin's Spearman has defeated Saladin's Archer!
Turn 191, 365 AD: Temujin's Axeman (6.00) vs Saladin's Horse Archer (5.21)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Combat Odds: 70.8%
Turn 191, 365 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer has defeated Temujin's Axeman!
Turn 191, 365 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer (4.17) vs Temujin's Archer (7.05)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Combat Odds: 3.5%
Turn 191, 365 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 22 (36/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 22 (14/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 191, 365 AD: Temujin's Archer has defeated Saladin's Horse Archer!

Turn 192, 380 AD: You have trained a Settler in Karakorum. Work has now begun on a Axeman.
Turn 192, 380 AD: You have trained a Spearman in Turfan Hammers. Work has now begun on a Christian Temple.

Turn 193, 395 AD: Merit Ptah has been born in Mecca!

Turn 194, 410 AD: Cyrus adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 195, 425 AD: Saladin's Galley (2.00) vs Temujin's Galley (2.40)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Combat Odds: 27.2%
Turn 195, 425 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 195, 425 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Saladin's Galley is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Temujin's Galley is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Saladin's Galley is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Saladin's Galley is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Saladin's Galley is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Temujin's Galley is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Saladin's Galley is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 195, 425 AD: Temujin's Galley has defeated Saladin's Galley!
Turn 195, 425 AD: Archimedes has been born in a far away land!

Turn 196, 440 AD: Temujin's Axeman (5.50) vs Saladin's Archer (3.97)
Turn 196, 440 AD: Combat Odds: 84.3%
Turn 196, 440 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 196, 440 AD: (City Defense: +95%)
Turn 196, 440 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 21 (47/100HP)
Turn 196, 440 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 21 (26/100HP)
Turn 196, 440 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 21 (5/100HP)
Turn 196, 440 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 196, 440 AD: Temujin's Axeman has defeated Saladin's Archer!
Turn 196, 440 AD: You have captured Basra!!!
Turn 196, 440 AD: You have pillaged 1 ? from the destruction of Basra!!!
Turn 196, 440 AD: Turfan has been founded.
Turn 196, 440 AD: You have trained a Axeman in Karakorum. Work has now begun on a Axeman.
Turn 196, 440 AD: You have constructed a Barracks in West Bridge Ham. Work has now begun on a Spearman.

Turn 198, 470 AD: Karakorum will grow to size 3 on the next turn

Turn 199, 485 AD: Karakorum has grown to size 3

E the round before alfa was on 28turns now 10 turns later it is 41 at most. Why why we settle East bridge so early. Why we didn't vote at least for it. I would prefer to leave alex alone but not to cut our research at half.

Now we really must conquer the map with swords,axes and cats. We must do only troops from now on.

 

[hellwitch]

Sorry for the offence but Tra must to provoke some discusions before he play. If you all remember Tra played fast before too and we miss the mids because we go 10 turns later for them.
So please make discusions before playing teamates. We need to discus such thing like cuting off the research.

What is done is done i just want to prevent such a mess to happend again.

I have one crazzy idea - can we give East Bridge to some of the AI for peace. We can get it back whenever we want you know.
edit: i've checked it - nobody from the AI want a town for peace now

 

[Ronnie1]

Sorry for the offence but Tra must to provoke some discusions before he play. If you all remember Tra played fast before too and we miss the mids because we go 10 turns later for them.
So please make discusions before playing teamates. We need to discus such thing like cuting off the research.

What is done is done i just want to prevent such a mess to happend again.

I agree that we need more consensus before turnsets are played.

 

[da_Vinci]

Looks like we still have not ironed out how to resolve different ideas before a turnset.

Maybe this is a good point to pause a moment, and work that out? We are not falling behind in the play pace, so I think we can afford to wait a few days to sort things out.

I have not been into the latest save yet (RL is picking up), but it seems that the issue of concern was the timing of founding Eastbridge, and its effect on research rate (via maint costs, I assume).

This seems to raise the question of whether we are planning to go after Alex after Sal or not (assuming we have agreement on going after Sal?)

I know that I floated the idea that we might skip Alex and go west right away, but I did not see (that I recall) any excitement about that idea, so I have been assuming that we more or less agreed to hit Sal, then Alex.

We may all need to include more mechanics and MM plans along with the more generic strategy discussion going forward. I wonder if some of the disagreement is on the details of how to get to an objective, rather than on what the objective should be.

So, in broad strategic terms, the choices I see are:

Go directly west. Skip Sal, skip Alex.

Hit Sal into peace, then go west. Skip Alex

Skip Sal, Hit Alex, then go east

Hit Sal, hit Alex, then go east

These may differ with regard to how they support a troops only, limited research plan as opposed to a more building and research now plan. I think some of us (like me) are less used to going troops only before maces ... not to say that the axe/sword/cat method won't work, but maybe not the natural style for many of us.

So I think we need to sort out the how much building and research issues, vs how much troop production, and the four strategic options above..

I think that hitting Sal to make peace is the way to go ... but I don't have a strong preference between east or west after that.

Discuss.

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

For the next turnset, here is what I see.

Turfan - Temple done in 5 and grow in 5, whip unhappy wears off in 6. We should be at pop 3 and build nothing but Cats.

Karak - I think we should build(whip) Monastary to spread religion.

Westbridge - Building Axes/Swords/Spears

Beshbalik - Keep building Cats/Swords

Eastbridge - Barracks before troops, but I would rather see Galley's here.

 

[Conquistador 63]

I haven't opened last save, but here go my 2¢.

I definitely agree we need more active discussion. In fact I'm a bit disappointed with the low activity level of debate lately in this thread.

But, on Thrallia's behalf, and re-reading recent posts, I can say he proposed originally settling the clams spot, but some others (me included) suggested the east bridge location, so he went there instead. And he took a few days to play his turnset, so I think it was the team's fault (everyone's) not to settle the debate before last turnset.

I don't think we're doing that bad. I just think we need to focus on troopbuilding (have we built our 1st cat already? ) so we can capture/raze a few of Sal's cities. The cash could then be invested to increase science rate to complete any research we think we need (Alpha, CoL?).

I just wonder if, due to limited city growth, our building capacity isn't lower than the AI's (we should look at the demo screen). That would make the warmonger plan harder than it seems from many comments posted here.

 

[Scout214]

Sorry I don't post as much as others. I am more of a strategist than tactician, and am more than willing to listen to the sage counsel of players more experienced than me, such as R1, C63, dV and HW. I talk with dV regularly, though, and ask probing questions. We don't always agree initially but do hash out the situation.

Let's see. Treasury is 0, cash flow is -1, research is 30%. If we don't get research higher and start kicking butt on the enemy civs, we are going to get smoked. One other team is ahead of us on pts and the two Russian teams are hanging back, as usual, before figuring out what to do and finishing the game hundreds of years before everyone else. That leaves us in 4th place at best, and precariously.

I agree that we need to get cats and other troops, and go knock out Sal. Sooner the better. Get money from that, up the research. Get scientists going, a lot more than we have. Create a science city on the island to the west, and then link up to the Barb city and start wading into Izzy.

The longer we wait to attack, the harder it will be to beat them. They are swapping techs with each other, I am sure. By getting Alphabet we may be able to get Alex to trade before we attack him but we may already be so far behind on techs that we will have nothing to trade to them. That means we need to attack quickly, before their tech advantage gives them troop types better than ours.

 

[da_Vinci]

Karak - I think we should build(whip) Monastary to spread religion.

Would it be a better use of resources to make any missionaries we need in WestBridge, since it already has a monastery? Unless the 10% added science is worth the investment of hammers in Karak?

dV

 

[da_Vinci]

I definitely agree we need more active discussion. In fact I'm a bit disappointed with the low activity level of debate lately in this thread.

I think we are less active than at the start. More to the point, there is discussion but not RESOLUTION of issues. Maybe we are assuming we have consensus when in fact we don't?

But, on Thrallia's behalf, and re-reading recent posts, I can say he proposed originally settling the clams spot, but some others (me included) suggested the east bridge location, so he went there instead. And he took a few days to play his turnset, so I think it was the team's fault (everyone's) not to settle the debate before last turnset.

I would have to agree that I also thought that the majority wanted to settle Eastbridge sooner rather than later.

I think that with 8 players we are all trying to keep the game moving, but might be sacrificing consensus to achieve that. One way to perhaps prevent misunderstandings is for the person ready to play to post their plan for the turnset, and if that seems to be at odds with what some of us are expecting, that can be discussed.

So maybe 24 hours to post got it, 72 hours to post plan (from new save date), and 24 hours after plan post to play (to allow feedback). Hopefully we can post plan sooner, so play is still every 72 hours. Reactions?

I don't think we're doing that bad. I just think we need to focus on troopbuilding (have we built our 1st cat already? ) so we can capture/raze a few of Sal's cities. The cash could then be invested to increase science rate to complete any research we think we need (Alpha, CoL?).

I just wonder if, due to limited city growth, our building capacity isn't lower than the AI's (we should look at the demo screen). That would make the warmonger plan harder than it seems from many comments posted here.

I think we still have an unresolved issue around how much more advanced military we research. hw seems to favor limited further research and spam troops. I think most of us original GK have more builder/research tendencies (not saying one is better, just pointing out the difference). We need to tackle that difference of opinion soon.

dV

 

[da_Vinci]

I agree that we need to get cats and other troops, and go knock out Sal. Sooner the better. Get money from that, up the research. Get scientists going, a lot more than we have. Create a science city on the island to the west, and then link up to the Barb city and start wading into Izzy.

West Island for science or production? I thought it looked like a good production site, IIRC. I guess nothing is that good science until we get pop caps up.

We could cottage Eastbridge, couldn't we? We need a commerce city somewhere, don't we?

The longer we wait to attack, the harder it will be to beat them. They are swapping techs with each other, I am sure. By getting Alphabet we may be able to get Alex to trade before we attack him but we may already be so far behind on techs that we will have nothing to trade to them. That means we need to attack quickly, before their tech advantage gives them troop types better than ours.

No chance to trade techs with any after Apha because we are everyone's worst enemy I am sure. Might trade something for peace, but no trading after that I suspect.

This seems a bit undecided between attack Alex or skip Alex and to west.

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

I am not really sure what Alphabet gains us right now. We may be able to get peace by giving up a tech I suppose. I would rather gain a tech by kicking the AI's into submission.

All of our city locations can be productive, that is why I was leaning towards science in Westbridge. But any city location that has at least 1 food bonus tile can support 2 scientists/merchants/etc...

Eastbridge needs to work the Iron mine (when available) and build Galleys.

I still favor going straight for Mecca, raze Sal's other cities in the south.

Then straight to Athens for Pyramids. Bypass silver island and clean it up later if needed.

Would it be a better use of resources to make any missionaries we need in WestBridge, since it already has a monastery? Unless the 10% added science is worth the investment of hammers in Karak?

We can build them there. I was just thinking that we are not gaining as much as we could by whipping something and growing the pop instead of remaining stagnant. I think we need 2 missionaries ASAP!

I also still feel it is poor use of resources to not work the bonus tiles in favor of scientists. If you look at what we are exchanging, right now we are trading 2 grass hill mines(4*2) for horse pasture(7) and pig hill mine(5) but could be pastured pig hill for (6). We are on the wrong end of an 8 for 12 trade as we stand right now. If we finish the Library in Westbridge and put scientists there instead, we end up on the right side of the 8 for 12 deal.

 

[da_Vinci]

I am not really sure what Alphabet gains us right now. We may be able to get peace by giving up a tech I suppose. I would rather gain a tech by kicking the AI's into submission.

Well, I suppose it is on the road to Lit and HE?

I also still feel it is poor use of resources to not work the bonus tiles in favor of scientists. If you look at what we are exchanging, right now we are trading 2 grass hill mines(4*2) for horse pasture(7) and pig hill mine(5) but could be pastured pig hill for (6). We are on the wrong end of an 8 for 12 trade as we stand right now. If we finish the Library in Westbridge and put scientists there instead, we end up on the right side of the 8 for 12 deal.

Does a temple in Karak get the pop up to where we can work bonus tile and have scientists? Not at game now, and my thinking has been pretty muddled lately, but if we got to pop 5 in Karak, would the debate be moot (work ban farm, hill, horse + two scientist ... or are we short food on that scenario?)?

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

I think the main point in getting Alpha is tech extortion in peace deals. At least that was mentioned by someone else earlier. Anyway, as long as we still have gold superavit I favor focusing on troopbuilding. We already have the techs for war right now - but where are the troops? Research can be turned on again later.